EVE General Discussion

Wow. And are they all really based on simple "if you f//ck blue, we f//ck you"?

I would say no. Even though we have a tendency, for mutual beneficial reasons, to uphold the unspoken laws and work towards these ends but all rules must in the end be upheld through force. Which is why these regulations and conflict resolutions take place so as to avoid the unnecessary legal application which will result in more time, effort and money spent and ultimately only be solvable in the final end through force. But in the end, if appeasement or arbitration cannot solve an issue, force is the only way to get ones end.

Also enforcement doesnt just have to be in physical manners, much like sanctions or denial of certain rights or freedoms is a "force" in itself, the ultimate means is physical violence and then the penultimate violence that of death. The escalation of enforcement of rules and regulations starts in childhood and ones early years, the underlining nature that ultimately must end in force, corporal punishment be it denial of rights and freedoms or even physical bodily harm, which as one ages is understand to mean death, or capital punishment.

Most people do not wish to go to such extremes and therefore rely on arbitration, legalisms or diplomacy as we do in game. But like real life border disputes often turn to bloodshed faster than anything and wars break out over slights or oversights even. If there is anything that Eve has shown is that might does in fact make right and this is the only law in New Eden imo. Most do not go to such extremes for fear of personal loss or harm. And those that do understand this sheeple nature very well and prey on those that will not or cannot for various reasons.

(TL;DR. I'm sorry. I'm awfully sorry.)
Well, the basic law the game works under is CONCORD's rules of engagement. What actions will get you beaten down in high sec compared to low sec, wardecs between corporations, dueling, null sec sovereignty capture rules (is that CONCORD too?), etc. There are also laws about joining corps, exiting corps, corp shareholding, etc. Those are fixed game mechanics that every player has to deal with. So they are absolute, immutable-by-players laws.

At another level, there's CODE. and it's in-game RP rules about who can safely mine and who can't. But as someone here said, it is only "law" as far as it is enforceable. And then there's the issue of Code agents not following their own rules (checking mining permits) and just ganking anybody they can. And then there's Code freighter ganking, which is piracy for profit, so pretty much outside of the any RP "law."

Then (as was said), there is the EULA and forum moderation laws. They're codified, and enforced by CCP or volunteer CCP representatives (ISD forum moderators and-- what are they called-- game masters (GMs?) ISD act as both police and judge. GMs act as judges, when complaints are brought to them. Same for CCP.

Beyond that, each discrete group (corp, alliance, coalition) has its own laws. Even if they aren't formalized and written down. One group may boot a member out if he scoops the loot out of a wreck that another member that another member wrecked. Probably that would be a smaller, tighter group of players who know each other well. They would more or less by consensus decide that they don't want a loot-scooping guy in their band/clan/tribe. But another group me think loot-scooping is totally OK. Either because of the personality of the group, or because they're big enough that they can't "hold court" over individual members' complaints against other members.

And finally, there are some accepted social conventions ("laws") that people throughout the game accept and abide by. They're the usual ones you'd find in any society. Junior people do not challenge the judgment of more senior leader people, lest they disrupt the smooth order of things, cause group members a lot of no-fun, and get ostracized. If the fight looks about equal, and one side runs, both sides will consider them despicable cowards. People with the same general outlook will draw together and congregate.

But one final law of MMOs, which is different from formal or societal laws in RL-- if people are not having fun, they'll simply disappear from that system of laws. They may check out and suss around for a system that they enjoy more. Or they may just decide to browse Youtube tonight, whatever, and not log on. EVE basic game design is so amazing though. Even if you get disgusted with the game, you still want to come back and check it out. There are so many unturned stones out there, so many stories happening that you don't even know about....

code is no more
give up already

And still, in my opinion, force it not necessary to create law. Imagine a situation where in a city there are some districts controlled by the mafia, which is essentially acting against the law. Police and other public representatives do not go in there and have completely no influence on which rules are binding there. And so, Mafia creates its own rules, forcing people to stick to them. So they have to pay regular tribute and are severely punished for any actions against mafia members. In this situation, are rules introduced by the mafia a real law? There is some authority that enforces it, people must act in the way mafia tells them or else they will be hurt. On the other hand we can imagine "city of angels", where any form of law enforcement is needed. In such society people would fully respect norms- but would they be legal norms? I believe yes, as they would come from some entity with legitimed power that makes people respect its decisions. People are not always sticking to legal rules because they are afraid of force that will be used against them. I think very often they do it because they believe it is a proper action, as these norms allow them to more efficiently act in the society.



So they are the law, like Luis XIV. But yes, it is questionable if today we could call it law in modern sense.



TL;to quote ;) I love your "final law of MMOs". Yes, this classification seems deeper than one could think and I think we can really distinct player "laws" from "player conventions". Laws come from corps, people obey them and if they have problem with it they don't need to be kicked out. They can leave themselves.

Really guys, I didn't think my question will bring up so interesting and different opinions. It is all true they are saying about EVE community.

OP:

Humans are social creatures, albeit some more/less than others.
Our development as infants requires external stimulus, and we are hardwired to provide that.

We need social order. Very few of us can survive alone.
Even more so today than ever before.
We need each other to provide for our needs, and we need each other to protect us.

We are (almost) all inter-dependent, and thus align in an orderly system defined by who needs what, and whom can provide it.

In law, and the history of law, there always exists and is always recognized the notion of "natural law".
Man-made laws are a system of convenience, and arbitrary in and of themselves, compared to the imperative of natural law.
These two forms of law are in constant conflict.
Should a person stealing food/water, because they or their children etc are starving, be punished?
According to natural law, no, but we cant allow stealing in our society either.
We reconcile this, by giving judges the power to decide the punishment, within the constraints of law.
Or in some systems, a jury to decide guilt in the first place.

That is why I dropped out of studying law.
I couldnt agree with what I was learning, and wanted no part in it.
Law is not what most people think it is.
Sometimes justice is served, but more often than not, it is not.

As a result of my studies, I learned law, justice, and penalties, are rarely aligned.

James 315's Code is the law of highsec, and we decommission those breaking the law. Pirates just ransom/shoot for their own gain. We serve highsec, not ourselves. I don't know of any better definition of law enforcement.


All pilots and ships are capable of adequate defense, regardless of a pilot's shirking in that regard. Plus, permit tank best tank. Everyone knows or should know if you have a permit and are following the Code, you are un-gankable.

Yet the reality is that it is exactly that force that IS the law in the final end. Regardless of if it is a mafioso or what you would refer to as "legal" law. Without the ability to enforce a law, or even a rule, it isnt a law or rule at all. Its as much a piece of paper as toilet paper is and for all the same uses. What makes law law is the general ability to enforce that, the easiest is majority decision, will and therefore arms and ability of enforcement, the second is minority enforcement upon a majority ( think mafioso over ordinary citizens here or any tribal band over another). This secondary style of enforcement is most evident in Eve, namely in null, where the smaller PvP core generally impose rule over the renters and smaller corps.

Yet in the end enforcement is the primary thing, imo, that creates rule of law. Without it any rule or law is meaningless.

You got to be kidding me. Savior of Highsec? Code of Conduct.? Give me a friggin break!

Maybe in your head you have these delusions of grandeur. I'm sure a flashlight would shine from one ear to the other.

It's fun for you to be in character in the actual game, but it just doesn't work here.

Law in Eve implies lawyers in Eve.

To imply we need that then it's as if we wanted something worse than CODE.