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Law in EVE

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Derran Blumberg
Doomheim
#21 - 2017-03-08 22:00:37 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Technically all legal structures are illusory in nature if there is no force ready to uphold it and therefore anarchistic in nature due to might makes right. Eve is no different than this tbh. Each rule of law in game is an informal agreement between players or groups of players that like real life legal statutes change at will and are often ad hoc or archaic in nature.


But we should ask ourselves if this isn't a simplification these days. Of course we can see enforcement only as physical coercion. But look at so-called soft law, for example international trade arbitration. The biggest world corporations are not using state enforcement system, because it is unprofitable for them. They prefer to quietly solve their conflicts in a procedure very similar to common process of law. Another example is diamond trade in USA. They create extralegal contracts not enforceable in typical ways. And still, they obey the norms. Isn't it so that force only helps stabilizing the legal system? If a system works without force, can't we really call it law?
Derran Blumberg
Doomheim
#22 - 2017-03-08 22:05:38 UTC



Wow. And are they all really based on simple "if you f//ck blue, we f//ck you"?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#23 - 2017-03-08 22:15:08 UTC
Derran Blumberg wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Technically all legal structures are illusory in nature if there is no force ready to uphold it and therefore anarchistic in nature due to might makes right. Eve is no different than this tbh. Each rule of law in game is an informal agreement between players or groups of players that like real life legal statutes change at will and are often ad hoc or archaic in nature.


But we should ask ourselves if this isn't a simplification these days. Of course we can see enforcement only as physical coercion. But look at so-called soft law, for example international trade arbitration. The biggest world corporations are not using state enforcement system, because it is unprofitable for them. They prefer to quietly solve their conflicts in a procedure very similar to common process of law. Another example is diamond trade in USA. They create extralegal contracts not enforceable in typical ways. And still, they obey the norms. Isn't it so that force only helps stabilizing the legal system? If a system works without force, can't we really call it law?


Not really
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#24 - 2017-03-08 22:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternus8lux8lucis
Derran Blumberg wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Technically all legal structures are illusory in nature if there is no force ready to uphold it and therefore anarchistic in nature due to might makes right. Eve is no different than this tbh. Each rule of law in game is an informal agreement between players or groups of players that like real life legal statutes change at will and are often ad hoc or archaic in nature.


But we should ask ourselves if this isn't a simplification these days. Of course we can see enforcement only as physical coercion. But look at so-called soft law, for example international trade arbitration. The biggest world corporations are not using state enforcement system, because it is unprofitable for them. They prefer to quietly solve their conflicts in a procedure very similar to common process of law. Another example is diamond trade in USA. They create extralegal contracts not enforceable in typical ways. And still, they obey the norms. Isn't it so that force only helps stabilizing the legal system? If a system works without force, can't we really call it law?

I would say no. Even though we have a tendency, for mutual beneficial reasons, to uphold the unspoken laws and work towards these ends but all rules must in the end be upheld through force. Which is why these regulations and conflict resolutions take place so as to avoid the unnecessary legal application which will result in more time, effort and money spent and ultimately only be solvable in the final end through force. But in the end, if appeasement or arbitration cannot solve an issue, force is the only way to get ones end.

Also enforcement doesnt just have to be in physical manners, much like sanctions or denial of certain rights or freedoms is a "force" in itself, the ultimate means is physical violence and then the penultimate violence that of death. The escalation of enforcement of rules and regulations starts in childhood and ones early years, the underlining nature that ultimately must end in force, corporal punishment be it denial of rights and freedoms or even physical bodily harm, which as one ages is understand to mean death, or capital punishment.

Most people do not wish to go to such extremes and therefore rely on arbitration, legalisms or diplomacy as we do in game. But like real life border disputes often turn to bloodshed faster than anything and wars break out over slights or oversights even. If there is anything that Eve has shown is that might does in fact make right and this is the only law in New Eden imo. Most do not go to such extremes for fear of personal loss or harm. And those that do understand this sheeple nature very well and prey on those that will not or cannot for various reasons.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2017-03-08 22:21:59 UTC
Derran Blumberg wrote:



Wow. And are they all really based on simple "if you f//ck blue, we f//ck you"?

Our member corps are not necessarily divided by purpose. The "actual" member corps (as opposed to alt corps, which typically are just one man side projects or corps created to house structures) are there because we like having them in the alliance. Some are more focused on certain parts of the game than others, but they are mostly "generalist" corps. The actual organisation by purpose goes through what we call squads and SIGs - groups that focus on certain gameplay aspects and are not limited by corp membership. Even members outside of the alliance are allowed in some as long as they are part of the coalition. Of course those groups have certain rules of conduct as well. But those as well are quite simple in nature for the most part, and mostly tell you how to avoid f\\king blues. And again it is usually up to the SIG leaders or directors what happens if somebody breaks those rules. Enforcement of those rules can at times highly depend on the responsible directors mood.

Then there are of course rules as to where one may put a structure, or where certain groups within the coalition are allowed to rat or mine that could be considered "Law" - but again, especially those rules might change on a whim, and enforcement of those rules can look very different from case to case.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#26 - 2017-03-09 01:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
(TL;DR. I'm sorry. I'm awfully sorry.)
Well, the basic law the game works under is CONCORD's rules of engagement. What actions will get you beaten down in high sec compared to low sec, wardecs between corporations, dueling, null sec sovereignty capture rules (is that CONCORD too?), etc. There are also laws about joining corps, exiting corps, corp shareholding, etc. Those are fixed game mechanics that every player has to deal with. So they are absolute, immutable-by-players laws.

At another level, there's CODE. and it's in-game RP rules about who can safely mine and who can't. But as someone here said, it is only "law" as far as it is enforceable. And then there's the issue of Code agents not following their own rules (checking mining permits) and just ganking anybody they can. And then there's Code freighter ganking, which is piracy for profit, so pretty much outside of the any RP "law."

Then (as was said), there is the EULA and forum moderation laws. They're codified, and enforced by CCP or volunteer CCP representatives (ISD forum moderators and-- what are they called-- game masters (GMs?) ISD act as both police and judge. GMs act as judges, when complaints are brought to them. Same for CCP.

Beyond that, each discrete group (corp, alliance, coalition) has its own laws. Even if they aren't formalized and written down. One group may boot a member out if he scoops the loot out of a wreck that another member that another member wrecked. Probably that would be a smaller, tighter group of players who know each other well. They would more or less by consensus decide that they don't want a loot-scooping guy in their band/clan/tribe. But another group me think loot-scooping is totally OK. Either because of the personality of the group, or because they're big enough that they can't "hold court" over individual members' complaints against other members.

And finally, there are some accepted social conventions ("laws") that people throughout the game accept and abide by. They're the usual ones you'd find in any society. Junior people do not challenge the judgment of more senior leader people, lest they disrupt the smooth order of things, cause group members a lot of no-fun, and get ostracized. If the fight looks about equal, and one side runs, both sides will consider them despicable cowards. People with the same general outlook will draw together and congregate.

But one final law of MMOs, which is different from formal or societal laws in RL-- if people are not having fun, they'll simply disappear from that system of laws. They may check out and suss around for a system that they enjoy more. Or they may just decide to browse Youtube tonight, whatever, and not log on. EVE basic game design is so amazing though. Even if you get disgusted with the game, you still want to come back and check it out. There are so many unturned stones out there, so many stories happening that you don't even know about....
Hazel TuckerTS
Doomheim
#27 - 2017-03-09 01:23:10 UTC
Revis Owen wrote:
Derran Blumberg wrote:
That's why I'd like to invite you to a discussion if players created something like legal systems in EVE


Yes. For example, nearly five years ago James 315 was democratically elected as Savior of Highsec. He successfully enacted the law of the New Halaima Code of Conduct. To this day, this law is enforced and Highsec is better for it.

It is a fully mature legal system. The legislature is James 315. The executive are His Agents. The judicial consists of forums for judging reimbursements or Agents' use of force.

BS code is dead. Move on loser

kiss kiss bang bang

Hazel TuckerTS
Doomheim
#28 - 2017-03-09 01:24:10 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Revis Owen wrote:
Yes. For example, nearly five years ago James 315 was democratically elected as Savior of Highsec. He successfully enacted the law of the New Halaima Code of Conduct. To this day, this law is enforced and Highsec is better for it.

It is a fully mature legal system. The legislature is James 315. The executive are His Agents. The judicial consists of forums for judging reimbursements or Agents' use of force.

Very true Agent Owen. I would even go as far as to say that the New Order of Highsec is probably the first true democracy in all of gaming. We are truly writing history here.


code is no more
give up already

kiss kiss bang bang

Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2017-03-09 03:24:34 UTC
There is one unspoken yet universally accepted thing that's shared across New Eden regardless of your Corp, Alliance, Faction, etc. No one even questions it any more...over the past decade it has somewhat become a fundamental building block of anything related to Trust in New Eden.: Yes, you guessed it right : In Chribba we trust.

Derran Blumberg
Doomheim
#30 - 2017-03-10 23:11:18 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
I would say no. Even though we have a tendency, for mutual beneficial reasons, to uphold the unspoken laws and work towards these ends but all rules must in the end be upheld through force. Which is why these regulations and conflict resolutions take place so as to avoid the unnecessary legal application which will result in more time, effort and money spent and ultimately only be solvable in the final end through force. But in the end, if appeasement or arbitration cannot solve an issue, force is the only way to get ones end.

Also enforcement doesnt just have to be in physical manners, much like sanctions or denial of certain rights or freedoms is a "force" in itself, the ultimate means is physical violence and then the penultimate violence that of death. The escalation of enforcement of rules and regulations starts in childhood and ones early years, the underlining nature that ultimately must end in force, corporal punishment be it denial of rights and freedoms or even physical bodily harm, which as one ages is understand to mean death, or capital punishment.

Most people do not wish to go to such extremes and therefore rely on arbitration, legalisms or diplomacy as we do in game. But like real life border disputes often turn to bloodshed faster than anything and wars break out over slights or oversights even. If there is anything that Eve has shown is that might does in fact make right and this is the only law in New Eden imo. Most do not go to such extremes for fear of personal loss or harm. And those that do understand this sheeple nature very well and prey on those that will not or cannot for various reasons.


And still, in my opinion, force it not necessary to create law. Imagine a situation where in a city there are some districts controlled by the mafia, which is essentially acting against the law. Police and other public representatives do not go in there and have completely no influence on which rules are binding there. And so, Mafia creates its own rules, forcing people to stick to them. So they have to pay regular tribute and are severely punished for any actions against mafia members. In this situation, are rules introduced by the mafia a real law? There is some authority that enforces it, people must act in the way mafia tells them or else they will be hurt. On the other hand we can imagine "city of angels", where any form of law enforcement is needed. In such society people would fully respect norms- but would they be legal norms? I believe yes, as they would come from some entity with legitimed power that makes people respect its decisions. People are not always sticking to legal rules because they are afraid of force that will be used against them. I think very often they do it because they believe it is a proper action, as these norms allow them to more efficiently act in the society.

Neuntausend wrote:
Our member corps are not necessarily divided by purpose. The "actual" member corps (as opposed to alt corps, which typically are just one man side projects or corps created to house structures) are there because we like having them in the alliance. Some are more focused on certain parts of the game than others, but they are mostly "generalist" corps. The actual organisation by purpose goes through what we call squads and SIGs - groups that focus on certain gameplay aspects and are not limited by corp membership. Even members outside of the alliance are allowed in some as long as they are part of the coalition. Of course those groups have certain rules of conduct as well. But those as well are quite simple in nature for the most part, and mostly tell you how to avoid f\\king blues. And again it is usually up to the SIG leaders or directors what happens if somebody breaks those rules. Enforcement of those rules can at times highly depend on the responsible directors mood.

Then there are of course rules as to where one may put a structure, or where certain groups within the coalition are allowed to rat or mine that could be considered "Law" - but again, especially those rules might change on a whim, and enforcement of those rules can look very different from case to case.


So they are the law, like Luis XIV. But yes, it is questionable if today we could call it law in modern sense.

Khergit Deserters wrote:
(TL;DR. I'm sorry. I'm awfully sorry.)


TL;to quote ;) I love your "final law of MMOs". Yes, this classification seems deeper than one could think and I think we can really distinct player "laws" from "player conventions". Laws come from corps, people obey them and if they have problem with it they don't need to be kicked out. They can leave themselves.

Really guys, I didn't think my question will bring up so interesting and different opinions. It is all true they are saying about EVE community.

Brynjard
Meaal Contractors
#31 - 2017-03-11 08:23:55 UTC
I see it as a political choice.
In the western world, the state is the one who sets the laws and prosectue those who break it.
It depends on wich country you're from. Some states are intervening more than others.
Like in my country, the state have a TV channel and owns 50% of the largest oil company.
In USA that would not happen because the state have other political veiws.

The EVE universe, when looking at the 4 states + CONCORD a system where the state is very small. Meaning they have very little intervention regarding the citezens.
The state form are so small regarding governing, it's almost anarchy.
But it's not total anarchy, because it has it's game mechanics who work as "regulations" and laws.
EVE has got a total free market compared to RL. That is the "regulations".
It has the suspect and criminal status if agressing in HS. And Concord punishment system.
Also there is war decs, who can be considerd as a corruption in my veiw, but it's for everyone. So a "fair" corruption.

The player corps works as an anarchy like tribal or gang way to organize. Internal the gangs set their own laws. Some corp have some written down, some don't.

To veiw CODE as any form of EVE law enforcement is in my opinioin a total miss. They are just another pirate gang, feeding on defenceless HS career pilots. It's funny how CODE on their web site see them selves as EVE saviour, argumenting their right or mission to gank.
What they do has nothing to do with justice and law enforcement. Regards to economy, I can see what they do as positive because they destroy ships and AFK miners.

Cool
Salvos Rhoska
#32 - 2017-03-11 15:06:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
OP:

Humans are social creatures, albeit some more/less than others.
Our development as infants requires external stimulus, and we are hardwired to provide that.

We need social order. Very few of us can survive alone.
Even more so today than ever before.
We need each other to provide for our needs, and we need each other to protect us.

We are (almost) all inter-dependent, and thus align in an orderly system defined by who needs what, and whom can provide it.

In law, and the history of law, there always exists and is always recognized the notion of "natural law".
Man-made laws are a system of convenience, and arbitrary in and of themselves, compared to the imperative of natural law.
These two forms of law are in constant conflict.
Should a person stealing food/water, because they or their children etc are starving, be punished?
According to natural law, no, but we cant allow stealing in our society either.
We reconcile this, by giving judges the power to decide the punishment, within the constraints of law.
Or in some systems, a jury to decide guilt in the first place.

That is why I dropped out of studying law.
I couldnt agree with what I was learning, and wanted no part in it.
Law is not what most people think it is.
Sometimes justice is served, but more often than not, it is not.

As a result of my studies, I learned law, justice, and penalties, are rarely aligned.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#33 - 2017-03-12 07:52:51 UTC
Lol
Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#34 - 2017-03-13 14:46:31 UTC
Brynjard wrote:
To veiw CODE as any form of EVE law enforcement is in my opinioin a total miss. They are just another pirate gang

James 315's Code is the law of highsec, and we decommission those breaking the law. Pirates just ransom/shoot for their own gain. We serve highsec, not ourselves. I don't know of any better definition of law enforcement.

Brynjard wrote:
, feeding on defenceless HS career pilots.

All pilots and ships are capable of adequate defense, regardless of a pilot's shirking in that regard. Plus, permit tank best tank. Everyone knows or should know if you have a permit and are following the Code, you are un-gankable.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.

000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#35 - 2017-03-13 19:54:55 UTC
In space, nobody can hear you call your laywer! Lol
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#36 - 2017-03-13 22:39:00 UTC
Derran Blumberg wrote:
*snip*




Yet the reality is that it is exactly that force that IS the law in the final end. Regardless of if it is a mafioso or what you would refer to as "legal" law. Without the ability to enforce a law, or even a rule, it isnt a law or rule at all. Its as much a piece of paper as toilet paper is and for all the same uses. What makes law law is the general ability to enforce that, the easiest is majority decision, will and therefore arms and ability of enforcement, the second is minority enforcement upon a majority ( think mafioso over ordinary citizens here or any tribal band over another). This secondary style of enforcement is most evident in Eve, namely in null, where the smaller PvP core generally impose rule over the renters and smaller corps.

Yet in the end enforcement is the primary thing, imo, that creates rule of law. Without it any rule or law is meaningless.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Hazel TuckerTS
Doomheim
#37 - 2017-03-13 22:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hazel TuckerTS
Revis Owen wrote:
Brynjard wrote:
To veiw CODE as any form of EVE law enforcement is in my opinioin a total miss. They are just another pirate gang

James 315's Code is the law of highsec, and we decommission those breaking the law. Pirates just ransom/shoot for their own gain. We serve highsec, not ourselves. I don't know of any better definition of law enforcement.

Brynjard wrote:
, feeding on defenceless HS career pilots.

All pilots and ships are capable of adequate defense, regardless of a pilot's shirking in that regard. Plus, permit tank best tank. Everyone knows or should know if you have a permit and are following the Code, you are un-gankable.



you, code and this james AH can 6 OFF !!! give it up already...........code is dead.

kiss kiss bang bang

Doris Laur
TheAuthority
#38 - 2017-03-13 23:09:14 UTC
Revis Owen wrote:
Derran Blumberg wrote:
That's why I'd like to invite you to a discussion if players created something like legal systems in EVE


Yes. For example, nearly five years ago James 315 was democratically elected as Savior of Highsec. He successfully enacted the law of the New Halaima Code of Conduct. To this day, this law is enforced and Highsec is better for it.

It is a fully mature legal system. The legislature is James 315. The executive are His Agents. The judicial consists of forums for judging reimbursements or Agents' use of force.


You got to be kidding me. Savior of Highsec? Code of Conduct.? LolGive me a friggin break!

Maybe in your head you have these delusions of grandeur. I'm sure a flashlight would shine from one ear to the other.

It's fun for you to be in character in the actual game, but it just doesn't work here.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2017-03-13 23:35:39 UTC
Derran Blumberg wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Very true Agent Owen. I would even go as far as to say that the New Order of Highsec is probably the first true democracy in all of gaming. We are truly writing history here.


Can you share some more data about CODE? I never encountered it, but some people seem to fear you. And is that in fact pure roleplay, like Keno says, or you are really well organized group?

Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
The only two laws I respect in Eve are the codebase and (as crazy as that might sound) civility.

Apart from the obvious set of rules enforced by CONCORD, Crimewatch and Sovereignity, players can only implement rules that are reasonably enforcable. Anything that is not actively enforced is not "law" but some fellow players preference. In that sense Eve is feudalistic and grimdark. In due time however, things became more civil, players essentially defeated the primordial stages of the game collectively, by building an economy. Just like how tribal systems were replaced with more "civil" ones in the real world.

Player enforced rules are a result of diplomacy. They get torn apart by anarchy. As these agreements are reinforced or diminished over time, and the environment is subject to change (updates), a certain state of flux of "normalcy" is almost guaranteed. Player agreements are indeed analogous to real world law, but we all know transgressions are easily forgiven. Mainly because the results are often intended to be hilarious, and often are.


That's exactly what's most fascinating. In most MMOs (as far as I know), these rules created by players are rarely exceeding game mechanics. Here we have limited, but well planned framework that makes it possible for people to organize their game in their own way. And writing "Law" I don't mean "only law created by the devs", but every aspect of institutionalized organization. Your observation about civil law and transformation from tribal system touches one of the most mysterious and interesting aspects of legal theory- the genesis of law. Concepts of tribal law were presented even in 17th Century by Hobbes or Locke (so-called nature state) and later in 20th Century by Friedrich von Hayek, but they are always speculations. Observing something like tribes transforming into civilised societies in EVE of course won't give us sure answers how law was created and from which point we have something to do with law. Is there any source I could read something about it?

Keno Skir wrote:
To the OP, i think you answered your own question. Of course there are rules made up by players in EvE that have consequences. Not sure what the actual question was if it wasn't that..


The question was strictly about existence of in-game law. Sole rules are not necesarily law. And EVE is incredibly complex system, which offers more opportunities for people organisation. Of course question: when rules begin to be legal rules? definitely isn't easy. When you are a member of, let's say, a golf club, it also has it's own rules, but you won't call them law. And this thread was created partially to indirectly answer the question about real law- basing on the experiences of EVE.

Shortly question is: From all these rules in EVE- are there some rules that resemble real-life legal rules?


The notion of law is not really feasible in game, IMO. As others have noted there are cultural norms and rules, but they do not rise to the level of law in the sense of courts, contracts, and so forth. The reason for this that there is virtually no way to enforce say, a contract in EVE outside of what CCP has given us. One could try to go after the party that breaks the contract in game, but that in itself is costly and really becomes something like thowing good ISK after bad.


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#40 - 2017-03-13 23:35:42 UTC
Law in Eve implies lawyers in Eve.

To imply we need that then it's as if we wanted something worse than CODE.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

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