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[Kyonoke] Contagion Tracking, Containment, Planning

Author
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#341 - 2017-04-09 11:28:40 UTC
We amended the resolution to include terms on auditing records to ensure veracity and completeness. We're currently collating all on-site data for a more organized and complete release.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#342 - 2017-04-09 11:55:37 UTC
Uh-- also, usually I'd have some concerns about putting an experimental "cure" into widespread use without stuff like clinical trials, but ... well, I guess it's possible that the cure could be worse than the disease, but, really, in this case that would be really impressive.

Really. Really. Impressive.

(Maybe if the plague and cure turned out to be sapient, made common cause against us all, and struck a deal with Sansha Kuvakei to edit victims into True Slave plague vessels instead of killing them?)

As it is, any surviving plague victims may not mind if we skip a few steps and go straight to human, including capsuleer, trials. Actually even if they DO mind I don't know that I really have qualms.

I'm sure Jaret Victorian can let you know if I'm found drooling viscera beside the butchered remains of Ms. Priano in the next few hours?

In the meantime, the dizziness has worn off, the discomfort's long since passed, and I'm not dead. Did I mention not dead? Also not dying?

It's kind of nice!
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#343 - 2017-04-09 12:04:18 UTC
Not dying is kind of nice, indeed!

Also, please no entrail-eating. Inside bits really do best remain inside.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Arrendis
TK Corp
#344 - 2017-04-09 12:15:07 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

It seems the bodies of treated persons have some use in manufacturing and spreading the cure to others. I wonder if the medical teams here would have use for mine if I jump away?

Basically, Ms.Culome, it's not exactly a normal vaccine; rather, it's a treatment, I think probably nanite based, that cleanses the body of specks and sticks around to prevent the subject picking up more.

[. . .]

Side effects ... it's a little hard to say. I don't think it'll follow me through a clone jump, but, at least, neither should any nasty malformed proteins be getting themselves copied along with the rest of my neurochemistry.


And this isn't raiding red flags? You think it's nanites. Nanites that can spread to others. So they need to be self-replicating, which means they need to use resources from their environment. You know, there are terms that describe tiny, not-quite alive things that feed off their hosts in order to self-replicate so they can spread to other hosts. So we've now introduced an artificial virus that can either evade or overcome the hosts's immune system (otherwise, it would be eradicated). And the trasmission vector from person to person is... what? Skin contact? Exchange of bodily fluids/ Are these things airborne if you cough or sneeze or just, you know, exhale?

Let's all be amazingly grateful nothing ever goes wrong with nanotech programming, and that these aren't going to be infecting everyone in the cluster in a matter of years... or less.

Except, you know, that they are. If everyone in the quarantine zones has to be vaccinated, and these things persist (which they'd have to, in order to prevent re-infection), then all the people leaving those stations will be carrying them. Everyone coming to those stations to make deliveries will be picking them up, and carrying them off to their next port of call. Of course, we don't know how it will affect infants (or even pre-natal) or their biological and psychological development, do we? Well, sucks to be them, they'll all have these things from their mothers anyway.

Best case, nothing happens. Everyone's fine forever living with these things in their bodies. It's still creating a template for someone to do the exact same thing with their own nanites that are designed to wait until a specific date or condition, and then, I dunno, turn everyone into Sansha puppets. And how would we know? Everyone's already got nanites in 'em. Makes it a little hard to detect the new ones.

And we don't even know if these things spread to other life forms. Can you infect your cat? How does the cat's body respond? How would a slaver hound's? What effect would that have on the nanites?

You realize this idea of 'let's make a treatment that spreads unchecked on its own' isn't the way this crap is normally done, right? That there's a reason medical science doesn't just go willy-nilly introducing new infectious agents into the environment the way this inquest just did?

Seriously, that keepstar needs to be obliterated before this nano-plague gets out into the cluster.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#345 - 2017-04-09 12:19:50 UTC
And just another tiny little side-note: if this crap spreads itself to other people, then the whole 'mandatory vaccination' thing is a farce. Not that a bunch of geneticists and capsuleers had the authority to mandate that anyway, but you know, grabbing power and making life-and-death decisions for other people is so easy to go along with, isn't it?

Did you participate in any of the voting, Aria?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#346 - 2017-04-09 12:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
I ... think maybe you (and we, and everybody) would be well-advised to read the data on this stuff before jumping to such conclusions, Ms.Culome. As far as I know, the treatment requires some actually kind of embarrassingly and painfully intrusive methods of administration, and I don't think I'm exactly a walking cure distributor; it's more that something in the blood of a cured person is useful for synthesizing more of the cure, I think?

Also has the quarantine been lifted already? It seems sensible to keep the keepstar and other quarantine areas as exactly that, and let those of us inside leave only by jump clone (after being treated, plus time for it to work; accidentally replicating a Koyonoke "basic" prion-type speck in a clone's brain while copying neurochemistry would be BAD). I wasn't exactly planning on walking my potentially biohazardous self over to the Holy Grape or anything-- more like jump out and contribute the scanner-scorched vessel to more cure production and go back for the implants after quarantine gets lifted?
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#347 - 2017-04-09 12:41:29 UTC
If there ever was a point when I lost all hope in New Eden's nations, this would be it. We have a contagion quarantined in four particular places, so the solution is...

- Let the SoCT deal with it.
- Set up an insane voting system with binary options.
- Leave the voting up to a random selection of capsuleers, locking everyone else out of the proceedings.
- Mysteriously research, invent and manufacture a 'cure/vaccine' within days.
- Doubling down, let's make it self-replicating nanite technology.
- Force this on the entire cluster, untested, with literally no safeguards.
- The four nations of New Eden apparently have no problem with this insanity?
- A few capsuleers didn't have to use some clone back-ups. Yaay.

What. the. hell. is. going. on.

Seriously. The only reason I can tell this isn't some sort of horrifyingly bad piece of fiction is that the existence of such a horrifyingly bad writer is impossible. This is, bar none, the least credible, stupidest, most outrageous nonsense I have ever seen in my entire life. By what spirits-blinded authority did this farce get authorized?

Every single medical professional and researcher in my employ have basically gone "Nope, this just didn't happen. It wouldn't, anywhere." until there's some form of proof delivered, because there is nothing in this entire insanity of a proceeding that ever gets even remotely close to anything even remotely resembling normal procedures for these situations.

This is quite literally more terrifying than the notion of Kyonoke running rampant through New Eden.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#348 - 2017-04-09 12:43:06 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
And just another tiny little side-note: if this crap spreads itself to other people, then the whole 'mandatory vaccination' thing is a farce. Not that a bunch of geneticists and capsuleers had the authority to mandate that anyway, but you know, grabbing power and making life-and-death decisions for other people is so easy to go along with, isn't it?

Did you participate in any of the voting, Aria?


It's a little odd, and the decision-making process was resricted in odd ways, but apparently the empires did delegate, I guess, some kind of tiebreaking authority to us. If someone gives you power, well, you have power. So....

(It's not like it's much weirder than the level of freedom they already give us anyway. This could maybe be described as the great powers leaving certain decisions to a bunch of smaller nation-states, really.)

Anyway, yeah, I had a little power here, and, per instructions, put such modest political influence as I secured behind ARC. SFRIM's been involved with the Consortium from the start, I think?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#349 - 2017-04-09 12:57:09 UTC
Another thing-- it seems like people have an idea that the cure's to be tested on literally everyone?

Uh ... no. Just Koyonoke victims. Meaning, presently, this'll also be in the quarantine zones.

Assuming they don't just let us all walk out of here. That might be a very bad call. Jump or medical clones, please.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#350 - 2017-04-09 13:39:14 UTC
A few points:

A) So, you don't feel you can trust your judgment when it comes to your own life, but you're willing to exercise that judgment over the lives of others? Do you think that's a responsible view to take?

B) I took the 'spreads to others' bit from what you've said. If I've misread your statement and misunderstood, then I apologize for misunderstanding.

C) If I have not, and this is a persistent nanomachine presence that will be me introduced by mandatory vaccination to millions of space travelers on the affected outposts (including the Keepstar), then yes, this will be getting tested on everyone. Because if it's persistent, then it will outlast the quarantine. It would kind of have to, because if it doesn't outlast the quarantine, then you can't guarantee the quarantine's effectiveness. If it does outlast the quarantine, then it will still be there when these travelers arrive in other places, where it can be spread to others. Thus my question regarding vectors, because if this thing can be spread to others, then it will be spread to others, and what makes it persistent and effective is precisely the human immune system's inability to purge the body of the foreign agent (ie: the nanites). That is... inescapable.

As it is, if it's persistent but not communicable, well, it's a foreign body that will have to be able to get into every major system of the human body in order to 'cleanse' it, so we can throw that our right there. At the very least, it'll be communicable via sex. Hell, antibioties are, they just don't self-replicate and usually aren't present in large enough concentrations to be noticed by the recipient.

BUT... even if that's the only way its communicable, that still means every single child born to a vaccinated woman, or the descendents of those women, forever, will have this in their system.

By the way, since it does have to be self-replicating to be persistent over the long-term... what's the cut-off? How does it decide 'hey, there's enough of us here, let's stop consuming the body we're supposed to protect'? There has to be a mechanism for that, or you've basically introduced nano-cancer.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#351 - 2017-04-09 14:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
A: I'm a pilot. It's inevitable that others' lives will be in my hands whether I trust my own judgment or not, if I'm to do my job.

In any case, the choice of how to vote was largely made for me: I had orders to back ARC, absent clear reason not to, and was in frequent contact with the Praefecta throughout.

B: I believe I said the body of a treated person is useful in manufacturing and spreading the cure, which might have been misleading. It's useful for synthesizing the cure, which can then be distributed to others.

(Actually I'm not at all sure of that. The first successfully-treated person needed to have blood drawn for the cure to be completed, but it might be that what was needed was data, not material.)

The full details on long-term effects are still a little unclear, but I imagine the kinds of questions you're asking are answerable, or will be in time. The researcher who treated me said it might be a very long time before Koyonoke and its cure are fully understood, so further trouble's totally possible.

(That last is my inference, to be clear, not her statement.)

It's not like messing with tech we barely understand is rare for us, though.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#352 - 2017-04-09 15:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Alright. I've had a moment to discuss some matters with staff, and it appears we may be able to begin releasing more properly collated materials in the coming days. We're still doing a lot of clean-up and after the last several days' constant work I'm comfortable with giving the staff some time to breathe and recover. A formal briefing will come once we have had full time for analysis.

That said, from the intelligence we've seen, I'd say this as a provisional assessment:

There was no particular need for scientific work on the part of the Inquest attendees. However, we were instrumental in countering the saboteurs' work to prevent the scientific work from being acted upon, and in breaking a deadlock on action by the Empires. It's not unknown for small parties with relatively little impact in the grand scheme to serve as kingmakers; this was the role we played in an Inquest convened by the Society, but jointly supported by the Big Four. The Society had essentially been paralyzed by infiltration, and the Empires had been deadlocked in usual fashion.

We possess a cure. The science behind it is not something I'm well-briefed on, but we know this because it was tested, if in limited amounts. It does appear to work. Any preexisting damage will likely require significant treatment to address, and there is a likelihood that some cases will be too advanced for the infected to become a functioning member of society again.

The background situation is as such.

It appears that a group - represented by codenames Rook, Vulture - had growing intelligence on a planned operation by Ohmon Kasaras, Jaron Kasaras, and Odaka Pakera, among others, who were an as-yet-unknown group of nationalist extremists. They used this intelligence to coopt Akira Kasaras, who was unaware of the plans until intelligence provided to her caused her to investigate, and to use her position as a family member to join the terrorist plot as a double agent. Akira Kasaras was requested to bring a sample of the Kyonoke pathogen to Astral Mining by Rook.

This request appears to be pursuant to a weaponization study done by the intelligence agency Rook and Vulture were operating on behalf of, given their signals intelligence and other capabilities.

It seems likely that the sabotage aboard H4-RP4 structure may have been to restrict knowledge of operations relating to the weaponization study conducted by this intelligence organization, which may have been put to the test, to the detriment of a civilian population. The cure, being dependent on Akira Kasaras and intelligence relating to her, was seemingly viewed as an acceptable collateral casualty. This will also explain the unusual circumstances aboard the RP4 orbital, which notably differed from the initial infections at the three other quarantine zones.

I will refrain from theorizing on which intelligence agency or agencies were active in this incident.

I will theorize, however, on two key points.

It does seem increasingly likely that State forces, in possession of at least some intelligence pertaining to the plot, closed borders to prevent spread of the Kyonoke pathogen if the plot had not in fact been thwarted.

It also seems likely that the downing of the Quafe convoy may have been on the suspicion, well-founded or not, that the empty bottles might have been used as a vector widespread infection. Alternatively, it may simply be the product of an exceedingly jumpy commander who lacked complete information.

Whatever happens, now that a cure has been developed, it seems likely that at least two empires will need to bring a torch into those dark places, to shine a light, and perhaps to put it to fire.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Arrendis
TK Corp
#353 - 2017-04-09 16:04:07 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
A: I'm a pilot. It's inevitable that others' lives will be in my hands whether I trust my own judgment or not, if I'm to do my job.

In any case, the choice of how to vote was largely made for me: I had orders to back ARC, absent clear reason not to, and was in frequent contact with the Praefecta throughout.


You made the claim that Senators in the Federation are accountable to their constituents becaose of voting. But you intentionally corrupted the democratic process? If that can be done when individuals of immense personal power are the voters, what makes you think the widespread system involving the masses is any more resistant to corruption and voter-manipulation? Just something to think about before the next time you claim trusting authority isn't cultural suicide.

Quote:

B: I believe I said the body of a treated person is useful in manufacturing and spreading the cure, which might have been misleading. It's useful for synthesizing the cure, which can then be distributed to others.


See, I did misunderstand what you were saying. My bad. That doesn't change the issues of persistent, self-replicating nanomachines that the host's immune system can't purge, mind you.

Quote:

The full details on long-term effects are still a little unclear, but I imagine the kinds of questions you're asking are answerable, or will be in time. The researcher who treated me said it might be a very long time before Koyonoke and its cure are fully understood, so further trouble's totally possible.

(That last is my inference, to be clear, not her statement.)

It's not like messing with tech we barely understand is rare for us, though.


And it was such a good idea every other time, too. Don't you see? The long-term effects are important. They're probably more important than the immediate effects. Because, as I said, there's no way this stuff doesn't get into the next generation. There's a reason vaccines aren't generally given at birth. So what happens to the kids who have these nanites in ther bodies before their brains are even brains? Because again: self-replicating t-cell-evading nanomachines will be getting into everyone's junk that way.

So yeah, having any idea at all of the effects of this treatment 6 months down the line, or a year, or ten years... it's kinda normally required before anything like this goes into mass circulation.

And something this far-reaching? Realistically, nobody should be leaving that keepstar, via neurology replication or ortherwise, for a decade or more.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#354 - 2017-04-09 16:26:28 UTC
That seems ... a little excessive. And not just because I'd feel obligated to leave someone a small mess to clean up so I could resume my duties.

To me this seems largely like "deal with that when we find out about it" stuff, Ms. Culome. And maybe some advisories, rather than "maintain watch for three generations to see if they just show a tendency toward anemia or do something more hoflick-worthy."
Arrendis
TK Corp
#355 - 2017-04-09 16:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Aria Jenneth wrote:
To me this seems largely like "deal with that when we find out about it" stuff, Ms. Culome.


And how widespread will it be by then? How many people will have to 'deal with it'? Again: there are reasons this kind of irresponsible rush to implementation is not the norm. These things get tested for decades before you release them into the wild, and that's just the stuff that isn't self-replicating.

And just because this seems to be the point you're not quite getting: the self-replication (which, as I've said, would be a necessary capability for any nanomachinery to be able tp provide persistent protection) is the dangerous thing that makes all sorts of otherwise amazingly unlikely problems. A normal vaccine gives your immune system an identifiable target, which it figured out how to kill. Then your immune system effectively remembers that for later.

These things, on the other hand, need to be able to go everywhere.They need to be able to survive everything your body can throw at them. That includes things like the secretions of the stomach, for example. And they need to be able to not get wiped out by your immune system. Which makes them dangerous, because they're designed to not be stopped by the only mechanism you have to protect against them.

That's dangerous because of what it represents. In nature, one of the mechanism that foments virus mutation is changes in environment. An influenze virus that affects only birds manages to mutate just enough to survive in humans, and soon you've got new strain that humans don't have built-up immunities against—and being in the new environment of humans encourages more mutation, which can quickly mean the things designed to deal with the original strain aren't effective. But that's a virus. It's something your body can fight.

This isn't. So what happens when your cat claws you (we'll assume by accident) and then runs off someplace to groom? Well, there's probably nanites on that claw now, and they shouldn't have much trouble infesting a cat. But the cat's a different environment. Different materials, different working temperature, different stomach PH, etc. How does that affect the nanites? Does it pose an increased risk of replication error (because they're going to replicate in there)? What could that error result in?

This is why making an artifical virus is a bad thing. Releasing it out into the wild is even worse. This would all be about a biollion percent safer if these things weren't 'persistent', but needed to be re-applied every week or so. Because machines thatm ake more of themselves? How's that going in the Drone Regions? Those stayed nice and predictably controllable, right? Putting that into the bloodstream of infants couldn't possibly be a horrible idea that only the most callous and inhumane monsters would see as 'something they'll have to deal with', could it?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#356 - 2017-04-09 16:51:21 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:

It appears that a group - represented by codenames Rook, Vulture - had growing intelligence on a planned operation by Ohmon Kasaras, Jaron Kasaras, and Odaka Pakera, among others, who were an as-yet-unknown group of nationalist extremists. They used this intelligence to coopt Akira Kasaras, who was unaware of the plans until intelligence provided to her caused her to investigate, and to use her position as a family member to join the terrorist plot as a double agent. Akira Kasaras was requested to bring a sample of the Kyonoke pathogen to Astral Mining by Rook.


So, to break this down:

1. The Kasarases were part of an as-yet-undentified ultra-nationalistic group.
2. That group is still unidentified, which means it's still out there.
3. Rook and Vulture were operating on behalf of some intelligence agency, ie: state (small 's') actors.
4. They, in effect, hijacked Akira Kasaras to use as a speck-mule to bring the speck to them on the Astral Mining platform?
5. This may or may not have been some kind of test of a weaponsized speck?
6. The cure entered into their calculus, which means it was known to them weeks ago before they got Akira Kasaras to go to the Astral Mining platform?
7. Vulture was apprehended aboard the Keepstar attempting to... do something that doesn't seem in keeping with the 'these guys were working against the ultra-nationalists' angle?
8. None of this explains the other 3 outbreaks, is that correct?

I'm just trying to understand what the story here is, because... if I read you right, pieces don't add up.
Jev North
Doomheim
#357 - 2017-04-09 17:23:13 UTC
I can't even read the word "speck" anymore. It's just a jumble of letters to me now, one that leaves me vaguely angry.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#358 - 2017-04-09 17:25:51 UTC
Jev North wrote:
I can't even read the word "speck" anymore. It's just a jumble of letters to me now, one that leaves me vaguely angry.


Dat's cuz you don't get no re-speck 'round heah.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#359 - 2017-04-09 17:30:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Arrendis wrote:


So, to break this down:

1. The Kasarases were part of an as-yet-undentified ultra-nationalistic group.
2. That group is still unidentified, which means it's still out there.
3. Rook and Vulture were operating on behalf of some intelligence agency, ie: state (small 's') actors.
4. They, in effect, hijacked Akira Kasaras to use as a speck-mule to bring the speck to them on the Astral Mining platform?
5. This may or may not have been some kind of test of a weaponsized speck?
6. The cure entered into their calculus, which means it was known to them weeks ago before they got Akira Kasaras to go to the Astral Mining platform?
7. Vulture was apprehended aboard the Keepstar attempting to... do something that doesn't seem in keeping with the 'these guys were working against the ultra-nationalists' angle?
8. None of this explains the other 3 outbreaks, is that correct?

I'm just trying to understand what the story here is, because... if I read you right, pieces don't add up.


We expect more information in coming days. As such, much of this narrative may be disproven. I base what I have off of materials seen at H4-RP4, most of which has been rebroadcast elsewhere, but which will be more formally published in coming days.

1) Two of the three are, per presently available intelligence. The third, Akira, served as a mole.
2) I suspect most of the group was in fact known to FIO, and possibly later to the State intelligence services once Ohmon Kasaras was identified. I would be surprised if the group hasn't been run down. However, I lack information this, and so this is conjecture. I also suspect this group was not large, given the increasing probability of being run down before they could achieve their objectives.
3) Yes.
4) Yes.
5) This is conjecture on my part. However, all other quarantine sites were infected by individuals already infected, while RP4 was infected via distribution from the ventilation system, much as was described in the weaponization study.
6) The exact timing remains uncertain. We do know that Patient 7, Akira Kasaras, was known to the parties in question. We know that Rook requested a sample of the pathogen. Akira Kasaras then appears on the RP4 facility in Postouvin. Further, she was certainly being used as a test subject by Poteque Pharmaceuticals, and much of the information on her was classified per the Federal Secrets Act. The cure itself was developed later. However, it may have been that Rook and Vulture were focused on ensuring that their actions did not come to light.
7) My suspicion is that the motivations of Rook, Vulture, and their parent organization are complicated. It appears to be primarily cointel. If, for instance, they believed that the State was now most exposed, and were hostile to the State, then preventing a cure might be a reasonable objective. However, all of this is conjecture.
8) Efu's initial patient was a Civire male who arrived, ill, at a private dock. I would not be surprised if that was one of the plotters. Similarly, Odaka Pakera crashed, ill, near Myrskaa, and is confirmed to be another of the plotters. I may've missed intelligence on the identities of the initial patients for Muttokon. However, I would not be surprised if the plotters, exposed during initial efforts to retrieve the pathogen or by Akira Kasaras, attempted to go to ground, not realizing that they were already infected.

As said, there is much conjecture here, though it serves mostly to connect data we have into a cohesive narrative.

As the information from the Inquest is more properly collated, ARC will be publishing a formal after action report with all data.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#360 - 2017-04-09 17:32:11 UTC
Also, a small addition: speaking personally as a member of the coordination team, I'd like to extend my deepest personal thanks to Naava Edios and Phoenix Naval Systems. As ARC is a loose-knit coalition and PNS operates as one of our independent security contractors, the depth of their drive and their focus during the Inquest may very well have made the difference between success and failure in our various objectives.

Thank you, Naava.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?