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Let's talk about Suitonia's suggestions to improve FW
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#221 - 2017-03-09 15:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Yes and we can see how well that has been working out. Go ahead and look at the top vp gainers. Its been almost a decade. CCP should not blame the players. The players need better tools.

There's not enough pvp in FW low sec - especially compared to other areas of the game?



First, thank you for actually quoting what I said. It is frustratrating when you only paraphrase me as to what you think I said. Here people can easily read what I said and decide for themselves whether what I said is what you suggest I said.

Is there enough pvp in FW? No not really. Is it more than other areas? Possibly. Jita has the most kills. Does that count? And if you say no jita doesn't count then I will ask why. And the answer will be likely to do with the quality of the type of pvp. And I will agree with you. But I will also point out that just looking at the map of fw space the systems with the most kills are those systems that have a high sec gate. Which means allot of those kills likely has little to do with faction war.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente#kills24

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#kills24

Moreover in looking at the map as whole we would see the mean system likely has less than 1 kill per hour.

I would also say that even if we say FW space is the best space in eve for pvp (a view I hold btw) that bar is not that high. FW is supposed to be this huge crazy war with tons of cheapish ships dying by the thousands. EVE could really use a system like that. Im not going to say EVE "needs" a system like that because I am not privvy to their finances, but clearly EVE could use a system that is not stagnant. WWB was great but now its over. Are we going to hope null sec will keep people interested? People will continue to amass billions of isk but what are they going to do with it?

But anyway raw number of kills is not really the problem I am seeing. And if all of a sudden the number of kills in amamake and tama (the two fw systems with the most kills) triples that does not mean fw sov is any better.

If CCP let players run plex like structures where they can litterally make a billion isk per hour per alt in aridia for a five months. (like they did when inferno came out) I bet we will see the amount of pvp there pick up. Even if there is no sov attached to the plexes.

I am not really saying fw as a whole is broken just the sov system. It needs the tweaks ccp promised. But until they do the sov system is broken. But IMO the sov aspect is what gives fw an overarching meaning. Otherwise its just random pvp like in jita or tama.

IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#222 - 2017-03-09 17:10:59 UTC
Cearain wrote:

IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?

Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning."

It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#223 - 2017-03-09 17:54:54 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?

Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning."

It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself.




It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.

CCP does not give certain systems more importance in their tier system. You are just imagining there is a rome but in the game all systems contribute equally to tiers. Your scoreboard is imaginary.

Now maybe you are suggesting CCP should change the way the scoring works. But what would happen? Everyone would blob the "Rome" system and the game would become even more null sec lite than it already is. The rest of the warzone would become even more barren.




Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#224 - 2017-03-09 20:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:

Its not like they either are completely the same or completely different. There can be similarities. And anyway you have not at all indicated how making fw sov more pvp oriented by rollbacks and/or real time intel would be abused. So your whole vague claim is irrelevant to the proposals under discussion.


You have not even established the reasoning as to why free intel will result in pvpers suddenly being interested in chasing farmers. I have suggested a far more effective solution to that.

I am indifferent to timer rollbacks, i think plex timer resets after a certain time would be less disruptive to all styles of plex warfare.

Cearain wrote:
And with station lockouts combined with the terrible sov system we have (both of which you like) groups tend to lump together so that the dplexing task can be spread out. As boozbaz and many many others have said in the past, having to dplex after the rabbits come is a big negative. This leads to large areas of empty space and just a few systems fought over. It would be better if ccp made it easier to actually fight over larger areas. That is what beter intel tools would do.


This is the entire problem with you cerain. Im pretty sure you are just not very intelligent. If evasion farmers are the reason FW pilots group up in a social game and live together, they how do you explain the tenancy for groups outside of faction war grouping up in large numbers? Is that also a defence against farmers? Or is it just the first convenient explanation you can think of and as such didnt need to think it through any further?

Cerain wrote:
We don't need to incentivize it any more than it is already. People already do it. It will just make it more efficient. I’m not against disallowing wcs in plexes but I doubt it will really change much. They will still just wap off which they do already.


People already know where farmers are. They dont go there because they are often watching local and scan. Those that arnt are also WCS. So removing that last line of defence can reward the effort of engaging them. Therefore, it encourages engagement, where there would otherwise be very little reason to do so. After all, i dont care that they are making isk, or that they are attacking a system i dont care about. If i did, i would do something about it. No intel required.



Cearain wrote:

I’m all for believing him except he is contradicting himself.
He is now saying any tool that tells us where plexes are being captured will just "tell everybody where people who won't engage are located." This logically implies that everyone in plexes are "people who won't engage." Yet earlier he was pointing at his corps high vp and kills to prove those who capture plexes also pvp.

He should at least be honest and admit some of the people in plexes will pvp. And this tool will help them get more pvp faster.


Yet another example in a long line of comments that can be filed under 'Cerain sees someone use an exaggerated argument in order to make a point, then treats it as word-for-word literal, even if taking it literally would be absurd.'
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#225 - 2017-03-09 20:10:47 UTC
Cearain wrote:
It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.



Thats a great comparison between EVE and that great open ended sandbox game, basketball.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#226 - 2017-03-09 22:54:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?

Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning."

It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself.


It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.

CCP does not give certain systems more importance in their tier system. You are just imagining there is a rome but in the game all systems contribute equally to tiers. Your scoreboard is imaginary.

Now maybe you are suggesting CCP should change the way the scoring works. But what would happen? Everyone would blob the "Rome" system and the game would become even more null sec lite than it already is. The rest of the warzone would become even more barren.

Nope. It's a sandbox game. While you go on endlessley about Tier levels and keeping score, the rest of us choose to understand the fundamental truth of this sandbox game: Each of us chooses our own victory conditions.

That old lady in the 13th Warrior go it right: "Wars are won in the will."
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#227 - 2017-03-09 23:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?

Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning."

It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself.


It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.

CCP does not give certain systems more importance in their tier system. You are just imagining there is a rome but in the game all systems contribute equally to tiers. Your scoreboard is imaginary.

Now maybe you are suggesting CCP should change the way the scoring works. But what would happen? Everyone would blob the "Rome" system and the game would become even more null sec lite than it already is. The rest of the warzone would become even more barren.

Nope. It's a sandbox game. While you go on endlessley about Tier levels and keeping score, the rest of us choose to understand the fundamental truth of this sandbox game: Each of us chooses our own victory conditions.

That old lady in the 13th Warrior go it right: "Wars are won in the will."



Im not sure I go on endlessly about tiers. I can take or leave tiers altogether. But whatever.

You brought up scoreboards. I agree people can pick their own goals. But we should also acknowledge some goals are actually in the game while some aren't. Getting 10 points for a slam dunk is not a rule of basketball and there is no "Rome" in FW.

As far as wills winning wars - I guess that is true so long as you choose whatever victory conditions you want.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Stormin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#228 - 2017-03-09 23:28:38 UTC
I have a suggestion for improving FW specifically, this could also make pirate/lowsec life more interesting in general. Make FW sovereignty dependent on adjacent systems sovereignty. It doesn't make sense to me that it's possible to bypass an entire military's territory. It's not possible to use enemy faction stations, and when flying through enemy faction HS the militia announces your prescience and peruses you. Why shouldn't conquered lowsec space have an NPC militia guarding the systems? Instead a system deep within a factions control is left with 1 measly ship not worth a damn. There's no sense of actually conquering the space for a faction.

Currently the most efficient way to raise a factions LP tiers is to travel into backwater systems and plex uncontested. In general this is boring game play from a PVE and PVP perspective. This change would prevent that from being possible. Each faction would be forced to progressively move deeper into the opposing factions territory, with very clear boarders and points of conflict. In addition, afk defensive plexing wouldn't be a thing anymore. Systems requiring defense will likely be under siege.

This change would also make FW missions more viable, due to the increased safety of a factions backwater systems. Creating an incentive to guard systems with high quality NPC hubs. It could also provide good hunting ground for pirates since they would not be bound to the same military rules as those enrolled in FW.

I've included an image below with blue arrows showing where offensive plexing would be possible, and red X's showing where it would not be. I think it also makes sense to always allow for offensive plexing in systems connected to that factions HS.

TL:DR - Only allow offensive plexing in systems connected to systems that faction already controls.

http://i.imgur.com/9Srz3r1.jpg
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#229 - 2017-03-10 02:47:28 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Its not like they either are completely the same or completely different. There can be similarities. And anyway you have not at all indicated how making fw sov more pvp oriented by rollbacks and/or real time intel would be abused. So your whole vague claim is irrelevant to the proposals under discussion.


You have not even established the reasoning as to why free intel will result in pvpers suddenly being interested in chasing farmers. I
have suggested a far more effective solution to that.


1) There quite a few players people who do chase farmers. You know they actually play the sov game ccp gave us. They would be much better off if farmers could not hide. If you are trying to prevent rabbits in a say a cluster of 10 systems then knowing exactly where they are will be helpful. This comibined with rollbacks will make rabbit plexing less efficient.

2) Then there are many players like me. I go roaming around looking for players in plexes. If they are there and in my engagement envelope I fight them. If they are a farmer I will chase them around a bit.

Lots of players do this. Not just me.

Now here is the thing. Only about 1/4 of the time I spend is actually dealing with someone in a plex. The rest is warping around system to system looking for someon in a plex or sitting in a plex myself hoping somone like me will enter for a fight. Intel would mean I can immediately go to someone in a plex by me and increase the efficiency of what I do by almost 4xs. That means I and others like me will interupt farmers 4xs as much making them less efficient.

3) But that is only part of the story. The other part is I and others like me will be 4xs as efficient at finding pvp. That means I will play eve more and so will others like me. That means the there will be more disruption of farmers.

4) But also because this is a more effient way to find pvp not only will the current people play more but more people will see that it is a great way to get small gang pvp and so even more people will join. That means more people will do this to find pvp. And those added people will also make farmers less efficient.

5) All of this will mean more pvp and hence will attract even more pvpers. All of this will snowball and make rabbit plexing a thing of the past.



Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Yet another example in a long line of comments that can be filed under 'Cerain sees someone use an exaggerated argument in order to make a point, then treats it as word-for-word literal, even if taking it literally would be absurd.'


Honestly you guys are so adamant that a real time intel tool won't hurt rabbit plexers, when it is obvious to about anyone else, I can't be sure when you are exaggerating or when you are serious.

You say you already know where the farmers are. But again people are not just looking for farmers. If you already know where everyone is running plexes then tell me how many people are running plexes right now in every system within 2 jumps of frerstorn.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#230 - 2017-03-10 04:15:27 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Honestly you guys are so adamant that a real time intel tool won't hurt rabbit plexers, when it is obvious to about anyone else, I can't be sure when you are exaggerating or when you are serious.

You say you already know where the farmers are. But again people are not just looking for farmers. If you already know where everyone is running plexes then tell me how many people are running plexes right now in every system within 2 jumps of frerstorn.

Who is everybody else? The people who will commit to chasing them? (nobody so far)
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#231 - 2017-03-10 07:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
Right now let's say I’m in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me? You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information. And no one does this. Someone might say yeah someone was plexing in ___ about 10 minutes ago. But that doesn’t mean they are there now nor does it tell you about the other systems. If ccp delivered what they promised I could cover all those systems and have plex timers rolling back in a few minutes.


ok so heres how you tell whos in the systems within 2 jumps around Frerstrom --- You fly there stop being lazy and actually play the game noone owes you instant gratification, it happens nowere else in the game.
If CCP didnt want you flying around they wouldnt have made the warzone so big and would have made it one or 2 systems next to each other, or even just one system were you would play capture the flag lol


Also can i have the source for this thing that you keep saying CCP promised? like i said in an earlier post they were vague and said maybe could do with better intel tools, they never said what those tools would be, they never said it would be real time intel and also never said they would actually implement it let alone the fact the dev that may have said something along those lines is probably not even with ccp anymore.

During that period of time do you know how many nutball ideas CCP said they would look at? Even the old lead designer Soundwave used to say he bare faced lied to people when asked questions and didnt have a response he would make **** up.

FW to ccp is the ginger step child they implemented it, and dont have a ******* clue what to do with it which tells in the 1 expansion since 2008, it doesnt create big headlines that hit irl news sites like null sec does that bring people to the game.
This was also blatent in the introduction of citadels they knew the implications it would have on FW and steam rolled on with it anyway with total dis regard for FW and to think otherwise you are ******* stupid

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#232 - 2017-03-10 15:19:28 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Honestly you guys are so adamant that a real time intel tool won't hurt rabbit plexers, when it is obvious to about anyone else, I can't be sure when you are exaggerating or when you are serious.

You say you already know where the farmers are. But again people are not just looking for farmers. If you already know where everyone is running plexes then tell me how many people are running plexes right now in every system within 2 jumps of frerstorn.

Who is everybody else?


Over the years there have been plenty of people recognizing this would have a considerable impact. Some didn't want it because they think rabbit plexing is fine and/or good. Some said it would lead to blobs. Even recently many have agreed it would impact plexing. In this very thread we have Perkutor Jakuard from your corp saying:


"The notification system will do lp farming quite more difficult...."


In his csm campain thread Suitonia said this may be "too strong." Again it can't be too strong and worthless at the same time.

Even you supported this before you decided to hate everyone who disagreed with you the slightest bit. Here is what you said:

"The proposal for telling militias where the plexes are spawning is a decent one, and it will help when two like-minded gangs are itching for a fight. Good stuff. [It can easily be gamed, which is fine. Example: You have a minimum number of guys enter a plex and the rest stay out. Response fleet arrives to find opponent has 3x the number the intel map says they do. Example 2: Plexing fleet "spams intel" by opening large number of plexes in far off area, and then bails when response fleet arrives.]

However, if you are fighting for your militia and are more interested in occupancy than fights, your side will blob a plex and discourage even fights when you can. You want to win occupancy, not get good fights."

At some point your dislike of me overwhelmed common sense.

X Gallentius wrote:

The people who will commit to chasing them? (nobody so far)


You seriously just block out anything you don't agree with. I just said I chase farmers and here is another quote:

Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Still waiting on anybody to commit to running rabbits in the new "Cearain FW"....



To answer your question directly, because you seem to think it is an important part of your character assassination attempt to discredit an idea you don't agree with:

I have chased off "rabbits" in the system I choose to live in.
I have chased off "rabbits" in the systems I chose to live whilst I was CalMil with PYRE.
I have chased off "rabbits" in the system I sometimes live in even now whilst I am a neutral.
I would continue to chase off "rabbits" from the system I chose to live in should I return to FW.



Whilst a number of you assume (incorrectly) that "nobody cares about" all the backwater systems, I have and might again choose to care about my corner of the warzone.

Just because as system has low traffic volume and can be quiet does not mean that someone is not interested in fighting for their Militia there. Some people choose a quieter corner so they can have the option of flying around solo, in pairs or threes, whilst avoiding insta gate camps and fleets that they cannot compete with in low numbers. It is usually tied in with good PvE content in the same system to maintain the wallet.

Often different types of PvPers come to these systems looking for the kind of fights they set off on a roam to find.

Whilst I fully expect that casual players and small groups should find it impossible (or at least extremely difficult) to hold sovereignty in a FW system, it should be possible for them to log in for their TZ and find that they can make an attempt to hold the system or go out and get fights.

I've heard countless complaints from good active corp members in an active corp complain about TZ farmers reducing their gameplay to counter farming just to keep the contested level down. They always end up in "Why don't we just take the corp neutral and we wont take any faction standings hits and can shoot both sides".

You seem to have lost the big picture.......


Seriously you ask a question ignore the responses and then you just ask the same question again and again saying they were never answered.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#233 - 2017-03-10 15:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Master sergent didnt seem to need free intel to motivate him to chase farmers. He seemed able minded enough to be able to find them himself. He was also specific about where he chased them, 'his home corner'. That is a subjective area, arbitrarily defined, and protected to the limits of his ability. There are no systems labelled 'backwater'. There are only systems that for one reason or another, do not fall under the care of any significant force.

MSMacR goes on to list the problem with a 24h warzone. Free intel doesnt help when you are not logged on so again, your idea does not at all address his valid criticism.

I would say that the benefits of the 24h warzone outweighs the drawbacks of timer based occupancy. The 24h warzone rewards activity, a timer rewards pings.

I do want to go back to an important aspect of you argument though.

When you first proposed this you did talk about ship types and even poked around the possibility of fitting info (ab/mwd) being included in the intel.

This is just to provide some context of what i believe to be the motivation for your free intel idea. A few posts ago you said intel would prevent people from being able to hide. With this im going to assume you think pilot names are going to be a feature in the intel?

This seems like a very simple way for small group of people to completely shut down any solo or smaller group of pilots regardless of them being farmers or not. From the moment they enter a plex, even at the opposite side of the WZ, anyone with a grudge can, without any effort what so ever, locate them and then prevent them from playing. With free intel, there is no ability for that player to evade a larger group.

If you have annoyed some locals, it should never be possible for them to sit in station and wait for intel to leek in unless that intel is provided by other players.

If you want to prevent someone from hiding, it really should be down to your own efforts to find them. To this end there is already a delayed agent locator.

I understand that this whole 'free intel' idea is mostly just selfish on your part. It seems to me that you want an intricate web of intel but you dont want to or are incapable of cultivating an intel channel of players willing to build it.

The only thing im not sure of is if this is a conscious or subconscious motivation on your part. Given your arguments, i am willing to accept that you lack the capacity to understand that this is an idea to benefit yourself and your 'shoot both sides' play style, not a benefit to FW.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#234 - 2017-03-10 15:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Right now let's say I’m in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me? You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information. And no one does this. Someone might say yeah someone was plexing in ___ about 10 minutes ago. But that doesn’t mean they are there now nor does it tell you about the other systems. If ccp delivered what they promised I could cover all those systems and have plex timers rolling back in a few minutes.


ok so heres how you tell whos in the systems within 2 jumps around Frerstrom --- You fly there stop being lazy and actually play the game noone owes you instant gratification, it happens nowere else in the game..


Ok so as a pvper you say this will give me instant gratification. I agree it will give me pvp quicker. We just disagree about whether this is good. But we both agree that those who say this will have no effect are wrong.



ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

If CCP didnt want you flying around they wouldnt have made the warzone so big and would have made it one or 2 systems next to each other, or even just one system were you would play capture the flag lol


That may be. But I actually think they just wanted the fighting to be spread out. I don't think they necessarilly wanted to force players to warp around the map for hours. You say that what we should do is just start roaming around and wasting allot of our time. Well thats not really happening and its time ccp acknowledged that their player base values their time and doesn't want to waste so much of it randomly "roaming" system to system.


ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

Also can i have the source for this thing that you keep saying CCP promised? like i said in an earlier post they were vague and said maybe could do with better intel tools, they never said what those tools would be, they never said it would be real time intel and also never said they would actually implement it let alone the fact the dev that may have said something along those lines is probably not even with ccp anymore.

During that period of time do you know how many nutball ideas CCP said they would look at? Even the old lead designer Soundwave used to say he bare faced lied to people when asked questions and didnt have a response he would make **** up..


The source is in one of my earlier posts in this thread. As I said in response to you earlier you are correct that they did not give any details about these intel tools. But again they said it was in response to player feedback and I am not aware of any other notification or intel tool system that players were talking about. Yes there were allot of ideas but at the time I followed fw ideas pretty closely and highly doubt I missed any other ideas regarding intel tools from players.
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

FW to ccp is the ginger step child they implemented it, and dont have a ******* clue what to do with it which tells in the 1 expansion since 2008, it doesnt create big headlines that hit irl news sites like null sec does that bring people to the game.
This was also blatent in the introduction of citadels they knew the implications it would have on FW and steam rolled on with it anyway with total dis regard for FW and to think otherwise you are ******* stupid


I agree that ccp gives fw very little resources. And I would even agree that fw is not going to draw big headlines because the ships tend to be cheaper. But I think fw can be very helpful in keeping players. The small gang pvp fw fosters is a very fun part of the game. The big null fights may get many players into eve but they are not really that fun to participate in - IMO. Currently eve gives you the option to get meaningless small gang pvp or huge blob fights with meaning. Neither one is great. FW sov can fill a void. It can give small gang fights that have some overarching significance.

As far as the citadels yes you are right that ccp likely did not care much about how that would effect fw. But CCP was sort of ambivalent about doing station lockouts anyway. The idea of station lockouts would come up before ccp implemented them (in inferno) and the fw players consistently said no to them. Now of course many players who hated station lockouts are no longer in fw. But that doesn't mean station lock outs are that great and those who disliked them were wrong.


Crosi: I was responding to XG claiming no one was going to chase rabbits. Clearly he is wrong on that would you agree? Whatever motivates someone to chase rabbits is irrelevant. All that matters is people do in fact chase rabbits and they will undoubtedly be more efficient if they are given better intel tools.

As far as the intel it could be very simple and basic. So for example when you look at the map I might see by each system a blue number and a red number. The blue number is the number of plexes being run by friendlies the red would be the plexes run by the enemy. I think that system would be a huge improvement and we wouldn't necesarrily need to know other information. Now if that didn't work combined with rollbacks to fix fw then perhaps the next step would be to let us know the size of the plex being run. I really don't think there would be reason to give the name of the person entering the plex and I never said it should say how their ship is fit.
With that clarifcation Andre pointed out that there is no downside to simple intel tools on plexing. Would you agree with him? It seemed most of your criticism was with the more detailed intel.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#235 - 2017-03-10 16:37:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
I seem to recall you did talk about ship fittings at one point.

However, As has been covered before, If i see a red 4 over iwisoda, im not feeling compelled to go there given my experience. Now, if WCS prevented FW plex gate activation, then i might swing past iwisoda as a matter of course to see if i could catch one of them out without gimping my fit to fight farmers.

I wouldnt need to look at the map to see a red number in a system i care about, because if i was available to do something about it, id be undocked doing something about it. If not, id be providing that information to an actual intel channel.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#236 - 2017-03-10 19:12:13 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I seem to recall you did talk about ship fittings at one point.

However, As has been covered before, If i see a red 4 over iwisoda, im not feeling compelled to go there given my experience. Now, if WCS prevented FW plex gate activation, then i might swing past iwisoda as a matter of course to see if i could catch one of them out without gimping my fit to fight farmers.

I wouldnt need to look at the map to see a red number in a system i care about, because if i was available to do something about it, id be undocked doing something about it. If not, id be providing that information to an actual intel channel.



So if you saw someone in a system other than iwisoda maybe you would go there?

You keep talking about "a system [you] care about" People used to care about allot more systems than they do now. What happened is they can no longer deal with the rabbits in the vast majority of systems so they stopped caring about sov in the vast majority of systems. Thats why we need more tools to help us deal with the rabbits.

As far as removing stabs I suppose it would help more than it would hurt. The thing is rabbits can warp out before you land on grid anyway assuming that they are paying some attention. If they are completely not paying attention then you can kill them because they won't warp out even when you are shooting them. There may be some middle ground there that might hurt the rabbits. So I think that may help a bit. I don't think it will change the war zone nearly as much as rollbacks and intel tools.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#237 - 2017-03-11 00:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I seem to recall you did talk about ship fittings at one point.

However, As has been covered before, If i see a red 4 over iwisoda, im not feeling compelled to go there given my experience. Now, if WCS prevented FW plex gate activation, then i might swing past iwisoda as a matter of course to see if i could catch one of them out without gimping my fit to fight farmers.

I wouldnt need to look at the map to see a red number in a system i care about, because if i was available to do something about it, id be undocked doing something about it. If not, id be providing that information to an actual intel channel.



So if you saw someone in a system other than iwisoda maybe you would go there?

You keep talking about "a system [you] care about" People used to care about allot more systems than they do now. What happened is they can no longer deal with the rabbits in the vast majority of systems so they stopped caring about sov in the vast majority of systems. Thats why we need more tools to help us deal with the rabbits.

As far as removing stabs I suppose it would help more than it would hurt. The thing is rabbits can warp out before you land on grid anyway assuming that they are paying some attention. If they are completely not paying attention then you can kill them because they won't warp out even when you are shooting them. There may be some middle ground there that might hurt the rabbits. So I think that may help a bit. I don't think it will change the war zone nearly as much as rollbacks and intel tools.


You are the one that keeps talking about how people have been shooting farmers for years, and thats before they have free intel. So it seems even by your reckoning that disrupting farmers does not pivot on free intel.

Im just telling you that for whatever is broken in FW, intel isnt really one of them. Free intel does not do what you say it does, and can also be easily achieved in an organic way by a functional militia. Just as intel is achieved in every single other area of space.

What you are asking for is the ability to put an alt in FW, so you can monitor free intel and go attack both militias with no negative effect on yourself.

This might be a solution to the 'Im not in militia and as such i dont have the resource of hundreds of players reporting things, but such intel is useful so i should be entitled to have it generated and handed to me on a silver platter because im not very good at roaming' problem.

But it isnt a solution to any real problem in FW.
Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
#238 - 2017-03-16 02:13:00 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Is there enough pvp in FW? No not really. Is it more than other areas? Possibly. Jita has the most kills. Does that count? And if you say no jita doesn't count then I will ask why. And the answer will be likely to do with the quality of the type of pvp. And I will agree with you. But I will also point out that just looking at the map of fw space the systems with the most kills are those systems that have a high sec gate. Which means allot of those kills likely has little to do with faction war.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente#kills24

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#kills24

Moreover in looking at the map as whole we would see the mean system likely has less than 1 kill per hour.


That is a little misleading, FW tends to cycle through power shifts from one side to the other and the big fights occur mostly when the sides become even during one of those shifts.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#239 - 2017-03-16 13:38:22 UTC
Agent 5B wrote:


That is a little misleading, FW tends to cycle through power shifts from one side to the other and the big fights occur mostly when the sides become even during one of those shifts.


If the fighting was more evenly spread out instead of a just a few systems then there could always be places where the available power is about equal and there will be fights. When there are only a few systems whether or not you get pvp is very binary because you have large number of pilots in a few systems. As the numbers increase it will be less likely that you will get evenly matched sides that make for good fights.


Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:

So if you saw someone in a system other than iwisoda maybe you would go there?

You keep talking about "a system [you] care about" People used to care about allot more systems than they do now. What happened is they can no longer deal with the rabbits in the vast majority of systems so they stopped caring about sov in the vast majority of systems. Thats why we need more tools to help us deal with the rabbits.

As far as removing stabs I suppose it would help more than it would hurt. The thing is rabbits can warp out before you land on grid anyway assuming that they are paying some attention. If they are completely not paying attention then you can kill them because they won't warp out even when you are shooting them. There may be some middle ground there that might hurt the rabbits. So I think that may help a bit. I don't think it will change the war zone nearly as much as rollbacks and intel tools.


You are the one that keeps talking about how people have been shooting farmers for years, and thats before they have free intel. So it seems even by your reckoning that disrupting farmers does not pivot on free intel.


Rabbits will stop when the disruptions to their efficiency is frequent enough and painful enough. I gave 5 ways intel tools will increase the frequency of the disruptions (you addressed none of them) and rollbacks will make each disruption more painful.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Im just telling you that for whatever is broken in FW, intel isnt really one of them. Free intel does not do what you say it does, and can also be easily achieved in an organic way by a functional militia. Just as intel is achieved in every single other area of space.


So no militia has ever been functional? Seriously players are not going to want to have there alts constantly scout every system any more then they want to have their alts rabbit plexing.

If you mean to suggest Gallente did this when they captured all the systems I would say I am trying to end rabbit plexing not join them with my own plexing alts like you guys did.

Crosi Wesdo wrote:

What you are asking for is the ability to put an alt in FW, so you can monitor free intel and go attack both militias with no negative effect on yourself.

This might be a solution to the 'Im not in militia and as such i dont have the resource of hundreds of players reporting things, but such intel is useful so i should be entitled to have it generated and handed to me on a silver platter because im not very good at roaming' problem.

But it isnt a solution to any real problem in FW.


If they gave this information I would be in faction war because gaining sov would finally be fun.

You have to make up your mind either the intel is useful or it won't change anything. It can't be both. And again I will ask the same question I did before and you couldn't answer. If this intel is already there for any funcitoning militia then how timers are running in plexes for all systems 2 jumps from frerstorn right now? For each system give me the number of plexes and which side is plexing them.

I have been in fw I know this intel is not readily available.

BTW you missed my question above.





Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#240 - 2017-03-16 16:49:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
You still have not explained how fighting will be 'spread out', as though suddenly pvpers are going to chase farmers (read, people who wont engage them) to all the deepest darkest corners of FW, because somehow they didnt previously know there was a farmer in Teimo for example?

Your suggestion drives no change in player behaviour beyond rewarding them with information while they are docked.

Are you saying that no militia has had decent intel? You assume intel comes from only alts? Ive been in militia and ive seen pleanty of decent intel on all levels, from fleet targets to farmer targets. Some is acted on, some is not. When i was only flying maulus many of my kills happened because i reported things in intel.

The inability for amarr militia to maintain, or their unwillingness to include you in an intel channel is a player problem.

You have yet again made an assertion that gaining sov would be fun if there was free intel. You have failed to show any basis for this claim for the last 2/3 years. If chasing farmers around was fun, people can easily do it. Most people already know where they haunt. You plan looks something like;

- Free Intel
- Find Farmer
- ????
- Fun.

I for one had most fun fighting over homesystems, and made most isk (outside lvl4 fw missions) defending my plexing alts in quieter space. No one ever had any problem finding each other in either such events. And it was nice that there is a verity of choices.