EVE General Discussion

Nope. That's what 'remove local' people tend to think, but that just means they don't understand human nature and history.

The history part is easiest to understand, and in fact i provided a link . And I quoted from it, like this!

CCP (you know, people who get paid to make games) actually though the above would happen. The opposite happened, people clumped together in the "good" ratting/mining systems making mutual support much much easier to do, which put a damper on the people who liked to solo hunt ratters who had been more spread out before these changes.

And as this change exacerbated to larger changes to brought by Dominion SOV, small alliances that were unable to merge with larger alliances and unwilling to rent from larger alliances got squeezed out of null altogether. It took CCP 8-9 months to fix null anoms (with the novel "EHP per isk" buff that made more types of anomalies viable), but the damage was done, Null sec went from a low population density area to a Desert with a few "Oasis" spots where everyone clumped together, most of that desert becoming "Rentistan".


Professional game developers did this, but the above quoted poster does not and cannot fathom the idea that his 'proposal' is bad. That brijng us to "human nature".

People don't respond to gerrymandering by DEVs. The "no local" people (many of whom tend to be hunter type PVPrs who honestly believe that no local will make their hunting efforts more fulfilling) don't understand that people will adapt in the same way they adapted to Dominion and the anom changes: We will group up, we will use our large IT departments, our large spy rings, and brute force to turn this supposed disadvantage of no local into our advantage. We'll make ALL of null (not just the good parts) look like c5/c6 wormhole space.

We'll forcibly absorb smaller alliances that get weaken by their members leaving because "freaking TEST/NC/PL/Goons appear out of no where every time I try to rat because I can't see them coming anymore". We'll require every one of our own ratting and mining fleets to have a cyno on grid so we can jump in those alts we left on that Titan in jump range if anyone lands on us (because we are RICH and can leave alts and Titans lying around like that).

We'll plant listening post alts (Eve has sound?) at every single gate in every pipe system. We'll line null with Citadels on gate grids everywhere just for this purpose. We'll ruin anyone who tries to make isk in null, while at the same time maintaining our invulnerable high sec incursion alts and our only slightly more vulnerable lvl 5 carrier mission blittzing alts that we already use when null space gets to hot (it's nice being rich as hell, ain't it).

If the quoted poster and anyone else wants to know what will happen, I encourage you to Goggle "Malcanis' Law", then live by what you learn from it.

If we are removing local because its free intel can we also remove all the information modes on the in game map and dotlan because its also free intel?

clicking NPC kills (24 hrs) on dotlan to see where the ratters are seems like a bigger abuse than local, since you are effectively getting local for an entire region with a single click.

So?

In equivalence, j-space cannot be owned or developed to generate the revenue Player Sov does, nor benefit from asset safety, not to mention various systemwide effects and logistics problems.

J-space is not the issue here. The point was that j-space has managed without Local ID.

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When a Cyno is lit in Player Sov, it is visible to all.
Removal of Local ID does not remove that.
Its furthermore entirely possible to pass a cloaked Cyno ship into Player Sov, even today.

Removing Local ID from Player Sov, does not affect any of the above.

I don't see the difference. To me as a solo player there really is no difference between soloing in NPC Null, SOV Null or Low Sec. I assume everyone in all of those places wants to blow up my ship and destroy my pod.

Can you explain to someone who isn't a sov holder what the huge difference is?

I understand the differences in rewards... there's a reason I head to null-sec.

So, are you saying that because of the greater rewards... local should be removed to make it harder for locals to extract those rewards and MUCH harder for interlopers to get them? While I understand the idea of making it more difficult to get bigger rewards... I'm not sure that changes that benefit those who are already large and prosperous over those who aren't is wise.

I like taking a wormhole into who knows where in null, finding an empty spot and siphoning off some good stuff before running back through womholes to my high-sec base. I'll accept losing that if you can show me the benefit of the change (and losing local will make that plan a lot less feasible for me). But so far I'm just hearing that it "isn't rational" or that it's a "sword of damocles" (which you're not really using right) or that "there is a huge difference".

I see losing local as a big negative for the solo-null player.... and bigger than any local corp or alliance negatives from the change. I'm sure null will survive without local... I just don't understand why you want to make null LESS accessible for those not holding sov.

That is not free intel. You have to go to a website and look stuff up. Local is right there in the game all the time and actually will give you advance warning. Does Dotlan give advanced warning?

Holy mother of God...yes, I believe what Malcanis is saying, it is managing because there are no gates nor cynos. In discussing this in the AFK cloaking thread some wormhole guys have argued that a connection opening up is similar to a covert cyno. You don't see it is there that easily and it can let through lots of Bad Guys™ or not. So not exactly the same, but similar. I think the big difference is that WHs has a very different intel process.

Now you might say "Ah-ha!" But careful there. As I noted when you change these kinds of things some players adapt others do not. So you could very well be driving players from NS while others adapt and stay. So all of your claims really go out the window of uncertainty. Might it work out like you say? Yeah. Might it blow up in your face? Yeah that could happen too. Your obstinate insistence that it won't despite previous examples of changes along with "just so stories" blowing up in the Dev's faces suggests the latter is indeed a real possibility.

To be clear here. I love reading about WH space. Sounds like lots of fun. But if you made NS more like that I'd likely be one of the non-adapters. Why? I just don't have the time to devote to that kind of play. All my reading of WH space suggests it is one of the more demanding areas of the game. I'd be one of the players that "can't adapt". Now, you might say, "So what?" But the point is how many adapters are their and how many non-adapters are their?

Another issue is maybe I'll adapt by moving to a corp/alliance that is part of a larger group. I might just bunk off to the Imperium where I have contacts. That way, I can get the benefits of the Imperium's efforts to adapt. You don't appear to give enough credit to the nature of how some of these group level adaptions work. I would argue they are like public goods or club goods. That is, their benefits, when provided, are enjoyed by all the players in that group irrespective of whether they actual contribute or not. Which again goes back to what Jenn aSide has been trying to get you to grasp. That the little guys will get really screwed over and in the end we could end up with large groups dominating the map again.

It won't be as time intensive as wh space since you can't roll an unwanted gate, but it will require more alts so that you can keep cloaked sabres on every gate, or maybe a t1 frigate cloaked on grid with the gate, in order to maintain "hole control" in sov null.

The in game map is delayed too. And it is not free. It is not something you can keep open all the time unlike local. Local you can have open all the time, is free, perfect, and even provides advanced warning.

To compare it to anything else is, IMO, intellectually dishonest.

Oh, and dotlan...is a player built feature.

You are intellectually dishonestly misrepresenting the original premise, which was that the Map functions also are free and automatic.

That I can access that data through the ingame Map, or on a 3rd party platform, does not change that the data itself is free and automatic.I do not have to gather the data on the Map myself, it is provided free and automatically.

That I have to open up the Map and access the data, does not make it not-free or automatic.
I also have to have the Local channel open inorder to access Local ID data.