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Remove immunity to cargo scanners from blockade runners
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Nya Kittenheart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#121 - 2016-10-21 03:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nya Kittenheart
This post is nothing more than a bad faith tantrum to get DEV and/or CSM attention on a non existant problem,everything has been said during BR rebalance and the bonus is working has intended .
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2016-10-21 09:58:12 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
That is exactly what choice means. You have options.



Not playing is not an option, its removing a playstyle and there has been far too much of that over the last few years
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#123 - 2016-10-21 10:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Quintessen wrote:
I see the two sides going back and forth on this and I'm left wondering if BRs are too easy to pop uncloaked. Certainly if it's worth popping BRs left and right with no idea of their cargo then something is wrong with the profit equation. If gankers can legitimately afford to gank all BRs they come across perhaps ganking is a bit too profitable when BRs are concerned. Maybe a better mechanic would be if BRs destroyed all their cargo on death. Kind of a self-destruction option. Can't get caught with elicit goods if there's nothing left after being blown up.


Removing gameplay from gankers is a very bad move.
Quintessen wrote:

That said, I can see both sides of the argument a bit, but for those worrying about the fact that you can't just leave a BR sitting around empty anymore. We can simply instruct the BR pilot to fly a random distance from a celestial and stay cloaked. Who the hell leaves their BR uncloaked for longer than they have to?


Why should BR pilots always have to be on point when undocked even when empty? No other industrial is forced to do this and frankly no industrialist should be worrying about getting ganked with an empty hold. It is incredibly easy to leave yourself open to attack with a BR especially if you are running two accounts not paying enough attention.

I ask all of you, what is so wrong about gankers being able to scan BR to see if its worth attacking or not? Its better for the haulers because empty and low value cargo will not be attacked and its good for gankers because they can now hunt for targets rather than gamble and attack any BR they can lock. Its better for everyone.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#124 - 2016-10-21 13:47:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Removing gameplay from gankers is a very bad move.

This statement is false.
Blowing up the ship IS the game play style and that will always be there no matter what happens to the cargo. The only thing the idea of having the cargo destroyed when the ship blows up does is remove the possible profits from that game play style.

baltec1 wrote:
Why should BR pilots always have to be on point when undocked even when empty? No other industrial is forced to do this and frankly no industrialist should be worrying about getting ganked with an empty hold. It is incredibly easy to leave yourself open to attack with a BR especially if you are running two accounts not paying enough attention.

When others ask for changes to the game that would make their semi AFK game play easier (like nerfs to ganking) you can be counted on to say no because AFK is bad and you deserve to die because AFK. And yet here you are supporting an idea because it would make YOUR AFK game play easier. They call that a double standard, or possibly being a hypocrite.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2016-10-21 15:47:19 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

This statement is false.
Blowing up the ship IS the game play style and that will always be there no matter what happens to the cargo. The only thing the idea of having the cargo destroyed when the ship blows up does is remove the possible profits from that game play style.


The whole point of ganking you is for profit. We have already lost the entire mining piracy profession and now you are wanting to do the same to the hauling piracy profession.
Donnachadh wrote:

When others ask for changes to the game that would make their semi AFK game play easier (like nerfs to ganking) you can be counted on to say no because AFK is bad and you deserve to die because AFK. And yet here you are supporting an idea because it would make YOUR AFK game play easier. They call that a double standard, or possibly being a hypocrite.


Point out the part where I said I want to be able to AFK my BR around highsec.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2016-10-21 17:34:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
I see the two sides going back and forth on this and I'm left wondering if BRs are too easy to pop uncloaked. Certainly if it's worth popping BRs left and right with no idea of their cargo then something is wrong with the profit equation. If gankers can legitimately afford to gank all BRs they come across perhaps ganking is a bit too profitable when BRs are concerned. Maybe a better mechanic would be if BRs destroyed all their cargo on death. Kind of a self-destruction option. Can't get caught with elicit goods if there's nothing left after being blown up.


Removing gameplay from gankers is a very bad move.
Quintessen wrote:

That said, I can see both sides of the argument a bit, but for those worrying about the fact that you can't just leave a BR sitting around empty anymore. We can simply instruct the BR pilot to fly a random distance from a celestial and stay cloaked. Who the hell leaves their BR uncloaked for longer than they have to?


Why should BR pilots always have to be on point when undocked even when empty? No other industrial is forced to do this and frankly no industrialist should be worrying about getting ganked with an empty hold. It is incredibly easy to leave yourself open to attack with a BR especially if you are running two accounts not paying enough attention.

I ask all of you, what is so wrong about gankers being able to scan BR to see if its worth attacking or not? Its better for the haulers because empty and low value cargo will not be attacked and its good for gankers because they can now hunt for targets rather than gamble and attack any BR they can lock. Its better for everyone.


What's so wrong with making gankers have to guess. Sure, I'm out ISK, but so are they. Partly, I imagine, that for every ganker who will blow up the BR without knowing, there are a lot who won't. Just because there's one "killer" out there doesn't mean a player's chances go up when there's fewer out there willing to do the deed.

You know why I ultimately support having scan immunity? Because it's cool. Frankly I'd like exploration cov ops to have the same benefit. For a long time I thought they did. Frankly, I'm fine with you trying to blow me when there's a very good chance I have nothing in the hold worth anything. And frankly, if there is a gate camp, then I have a decent shot of someone blowing me up while empty instead of full which dramatically decreases my potential losses.

There's very few times where more information given to the attacker improves the defenders chances. Denying intelligence here will always work to the favor of the BR pilot presuming they're actually hauling stuff more than half the time. The only benefit you're proposing if a decrease in deaths for people who don't actually use their BRs for anything significant. And, frankly, it's in my best interest if you're blowing up every BR you come across in high sec because it means you're spending more time in your pods and less time at the gate camping. Scan immunity really is a win-win for BR pilots.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#127 - 2016-10-21 18:58:35 UTC
Quintessen wrote:


What's so wrong with making gankers have to guess.



Increases risk to haulers for no good reason, removes skill from ganking, renders making a profit almost impossible for gankers.


Quintessen wrote:

Sure, I'm out ISK, but so are they. Partly, I imagine, that for every ganker who will blow up the BR without knowing, there are a lot who won't. Just because there's one "killer" out there doesn't mean a player's chances go up when there's fewer out there willing to do the deed.


Which means less content for both haulers and gankers. We already have the least amount of content in highsec in EVEs history, we cannot afford to keep on nerfing more out of the game.
Quintessen wrote:

You know why I ultimately support having scan immunity? Because it's cool.


Cargo not dropping out of the orca was considered cool for some, in reality it was bad gameplay.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#128 - 2016-10-21 19:40:36 UTC
This is all true.

It is way better gameplay if piracy targets imprudent haulers than by chance. It isn't good gameplay to force pirates to explode targets at random instead of hunting, stalking and killing targets that have loaded excessive amounts in their hauler.

Random kills do not incentivize smart, cautious play. It instead makes getting exploded into a game of chance where there is little one can do to protect their ship and cargo.

The game would benefit from more ways to select profitable piracy targets, not less. As for blockade runners, it does seem like it is a pretty redundant bonus. A properly piloted BR should never be scanned in the first place. I do like the sentiment behind the unique bonus however, I just wish there was actually a game mechanic (like smuggling) that made it useful. As it is, it probably results in more BRs being exploded than it saves.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2016-10-21 20:41:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quintessen wrote:


What's so wrong with making gankers have to guess.



Increases risk to haulers for no good reason, removes skill from ganking, renders making a profit almost impossible for gankers.


Quintessen wrote:

Sure, I'm out ISK, but so are they. Partly, I imagine, that for every ganker who will blow up the BR without knowing, there are a lot who won't. Just because there's one "killer" out there doesn't mean a player's chances go up when there's fewer out there willing to do the deed.


Which means less content for both haulers and gankers. We already have the least amount of content in highsec in EVEs history, we cannot afford to keep on nerfing more out of the game.
Quintessen wrote:

You know why I ultimately support having scan immunity? Because it's cool.


Cargo not dropping out of the orca was considered cool for some, in reality it was bad gameplay.


I'm still lost on how it increases risk to haulers (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're referring to BR pilots and not general haulers). It only decreases risk to haulers who aren't hauling anything. Once they're hauling the risk is the same or higher.

Getting ganked isn't content for the gankee. I know that's a philosophical disagreement in the community. I'm not saying don't gank. Feel free. I'm saying it's not the gankees responsibility to ensure profitability. And I think you revealed your hand a bit here.

"Renders making a profit impossible for gankers."

So stop ganking BRs where you don't have other avenues for knowing what they're hauling. Use espionage to know when stuff is getting moved around. Infiltrate their ops. Watch and observe behavior patterns to see when a player is likely to be moving actual cargo. You say it's removing skill from ganking. I say it requires more. There's lots of ways to get the intel you need besides cargo scanning. Will you get everyone -- no. People who vary up their routes and schedules will likely elude you. But all it means is that either you accept lack of profitability for BRs or you up your game. And that will cause them to up their game. See -- more content.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2016-10-21 20:52:03 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
This is all true.
Random kills do not incentivize smart, cautious play. It instead makes getting exploded into a game of chance where there is little one can do to protect their ship and cargo.


If does if it's no longer profitable to do. If killing random BRs comes at a loss and people can't afford to keep doing it, then gankers will need alternate strategies to gather the intelligence to know what targets to hit. Social engineering is something EVE is known for. It can be used here too.

Black Pedro wrote:
The game would benefit from more ways to select profitable piracy targets, not less. As for blockade runners, it does seem like it is a pretty redundant bonus. A properly piloted BR should never be scanned in the first place. I do like the sentiment behind the unique bonus however, I just wish there was actually a game mechanic (like smuggling) that made it useful. As it is, it probably results in more BRs being exploded than it saves.


It results in more empty BRs being exploded and fewer full ones. I'm okay with this. If it gives any players pause over whether or not to kill a loaded BR, then the bonus has done it's job. Every BR you could have scanned and tackled empty, you could have scanned and tackled loaded. Who cares about unloaded BRs. If you're using a BR to fly around empty or value-light, then fly around in something else. There's faster ships and there's larger-hulled ships. I fly my BR because it gives people pause as to whether or not I have something of value. And I've flown it in and out of all the major trade hubs on multiple routes with minimal incidents.

Frankly the bonus works just like real life. Criminals don't often hit targets where they don't know the potential reward. And the ones that do quickly get frustrated at the often small pittance of a reward at the end. The scan invulnerable BR is doing it's job. I think you'll find few non-gankers who disagree.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#131 - 2016-10-21 21:06:18 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
It results in more empty BRs being exploded and fewer full ones. I'm okay with this. If it gives any players pause over whether or not to kill a loaded BR, then the bonus has done it's job. Every BR you could have scanned and tackled empty, you could have scanned and tackled loaded. Who cares about unloaded BRs. If you're using a BR to fly around empty or value-light, then fly around in something else. There's faster ships and there's larger-hulled ships. I fly my BR because it gives people pause as to whether or not I have something of value. And I've flown it in and out of all the major trade hubs on multiple routes with minimal incidents.

Frankly the bonus works just like real life. Criminals don't often hit targets where they don't know the potential reward. And the ones that do quickly get frustrated at the often small pittance of a reward at the end. The scan invulnerable BR is doing it's job. I think you'll find few non-gankers who disagree.
Ok. I'm not sure I get where you are coming from. Pirates are going to explode your BR if they can whether or not you have anything of value in it. This makes you less safe. If you had nothing in you cargo hold, a pirate looking for loot would likely pass you by. With no information, they will likely explode you.

No pirate is going to frustrated over a "pittance" of a reward. They will chalk it up to the cost of doing business and just explode you again if they get the chance.

It does nothing to make you safer. Your lack of problems so far are solely the result of you avoiding being locked/scanned, because of your cloak. If you sit on a gate uncloaked in an empty BR as compared to a empty other hauler, you will quite quickly learn how "safe" this bonus makes you.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2016-10-21 22:01:44 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Ok. I'm not sure I get where you are coming from. Pirates are going to explode your BR if they can whether or not you have anything of value in it. This makes you less safe. If you had nothing in you cargo hold, a pirate looking for loot would likely pass you by. With no information, they will likely explode you.

No pirate is going to frustrated over a "pittance" of a reward. They will chalk it up to the cost of doing business and just explode you again if they get the chance.

It does nothing to make you safer. Your lack of problems so far are solely the result of you avoiding being locked/scanned, because of your cloak. If you sit on a gate uncloaked in an empty BR as compared to a empty other hauler, you will quite quickly learn how "safe" this bonus makes you.


Is the pirate popping people left and right just because? Because if that's the case then I'm f***ed either way. If they're only popping people with valuable cargo and I don't have scan immunity, then I'm f***ed whenever I have valuable cargo. Is your primary concern the value of the ship itself? It's simply not that expensive a ship. I've had more expensive ships blown up because somebody got bored. It's not the ship that I'm worried about. I'm worried about the cargo. And, yes, there are people who will go after every blockade runner they see. zKillboard isn't that hard to use to figure that out. But this is a self-fixing problem. If people end up getting blapped too often, then they'll stop using BRs for valuable cargo so frequently till it becomes less profitable until pirates stop blapping on them every chance they get. Which leads to increased usage. There seems to be an ebb and flow to these things.

So I come back to my original point. It's cool. If it bugs you, fly something else or ask for a new kind of ship. Clearly there are people here who like it and are fine with ship as is.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#133 - 2016-10-21 22:24:37 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
I see the two sides going back and forth on this and I'm left wondering if BRs are too easy to pop uncloaked. Certainly if it's worth popping BRs left and right with no idea of their cargo then something is wrong with the profit equation. If gankers can legitimately afford to gank all BRs they come across perhaps ganking is a bit too profitable when BRs are concerned. Maybe a better mechanic would be if BRs destroyed all their cargo on death. Kind of a self-destruction option. Can't get caught with elicit goods if there's nothing left after being blown up.

That said, I can see both sides of the argument a bit, but for those worrying about the fact that you can't just leave a BR sitting around empty anymore. We can simply instruct the BR pilot to fly a random distance from a celestial and stay cloaked. Who the hell leaves their BR uncloaked for longer than they have to?

Why is it always the fault of someone who shoots someone else in a shooting game?

BR pilots can actually survive if they fit tank rather than cargo. Tornado alpha will one-shot an untanked BR, however they can't one-shot an tanked one.

The BR pilot just has to have even the slightest bit of personal survival knowledge to even never be at risk of being ganked.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2016-10-21 23:40:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
That is exactly what choice means. You have options.



Not playing is not an option, its removing a playstyle and there has been far too much of that over the last few years



Not shooting a BR is now not playing eve at all? WOW. I guess I've never actually been playing.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2016-10-22 00:09:56 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Why is it always the fault of someone who shoots someone else in a shooting game?

BR pilots can actually survive if they fit tank rather than cargo. Tornado alpha will one-shot an untanked BR, however they can't one-shot an tanked one.

The BR pilot just has to have even the slightest bit of personal survival knowledge to even never be at risk of being ganked.


That's the biggest lie of EVE. EVE isn't just a shooting game. It's an exploration game. A trading game. An intelligence game. A building game. A research game. A empire building game. A wealth accumulation game. A social game. It's a PvE game as well as a PvP game.

I have no problem being shot at and shooting back. i play my fair share of shooters and I PvP in all sorts of games. EVE is an amazing game, partly, because it's different. But it is very much a game that considers "content" to be a game of tennis played between a tennis player with proper gear and a someone in a soccer outfit. And then marvels at how the tennis player keeps winning and further wonders why some people don't want to play tennis anymore.

EVE isn't a shooting game like Doom or StarCraft. It's a multi-faceted, persistent universe where you can build or lose your virtual fortunes. And some people get attached to their virtual fortunes they same way they can get attached to anything else imaginary. In fact, the whole concept of status works by the willingness of people to attach value to things that are hard to acquire.

If EVE wasn't persistent and the ships were free, I would be right there with you because no one would could complain. But goal-setting is a thing and ganking a player interested in industry and not PvP is likely going to be upset because you hampered them. And I'm not on their side here because the game advertises what it's really like. But I can at least understand why they're upset. And I understand that this isn't just a shooting game.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#136 - 2016-10-22 00:51:03 UTC
Quintessen wrote:


I'm still lost on how it increases risk to haulers


If attacks are random then no matter what the hauler does, no matter how well they fly or what cargo they carry they wil be a target. This means all haulers are at higher risk as opposed to just those carrying high value cargo.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#137 - 2016-10-22 00:55:03 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:



Not shooting a BR is now not playing eve at all? WOW. I guess I've never actually been playing.


You are effectively saying go do something else because their playstyle has been nerfed out of existence. Its like CCP adding an NPC hauler service or just adding minerals directly to the market wiping out player hauling and mining.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2016-10-22 01:33:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quintessen wrote:


I'm still lost on how it increases risk to haulers


If attacks are random then no matter what the hauler does, no matter how well they fly or what cargo they carry they wil be a target. This means all haulers are at higher risk as opposed to just those carrying high value cargo.


Coupe of problems with this statement. One, BR scan immunity shouldn't affect non-BR pilots, but I'm presuming that's what you meant. Also you seem to have conflated how well you fly with having scan immunity and what cargo you're carrying.

Still, though, you haven't addressed how scan immunity hurts when you actually have something of value to haul. You would be a target regardless. So if you are going to haul a couple billion ISK worth of stuff, you're going to get targeted regardless. Hell even a couple hundred million will likely pay for the gank ship even with random losses.

The only really safe way to go about hauling is to either haul nothing of value (Yay!). Fly your BR perma-cloaked (still risky). Or fly with so many friends that you can handle anything that comes your way (hope you're the biggest fish).

But it shouldn't be perfectly safe. It should be a little risky. So, yes, people will target empty BRs. They'll also target full BRs. The change only benefits BRs that aren't cloaked and are empty. How often does that actually happen? If you're concerned, cloak. For those of use who avoid Jita and other similar locations, the scan immunity gives people pause. I'm good with that.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#139 - 2016-10-22 03:53:24 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Ok. I'm not sure I get where you are coming from. Pirates are going to explode your BR if they can whether or not you have anything of value in it. This makes you less safe. If you had nothing in you cargo hold, a pirate looking for loot would likely pass you by. With no information, they will likely explode you.

No pirate is going to frustrated over a "pittance" of a reward. They will chalk it up to the cost of doing business and just explode you again if they get the chance.

It does nothing to make you safer. Your lack of problems so far are solely the result of you avoiding being locked/scanned, because of your cloak. If you sit on a gate uncloaked in an empty BR as compared to a empty other hauler, you will quite quickly learn how "safe" this bonus makes you.


Is the pirate popping people left and right just because? Because if that's the case then I'm f***ed either way. If they're only popping people with valuable cargo and I don't have scan immunity, then I'm f***ed whenever I have valuable cargo. Is your primary concern the value of the ship itself? It's simply not that expensive a ship. I've had more expensive ships blown up because somebody got bored. It's not the ship that I'm worried about. I'm worried about the cargo. And, yes, there are people who will go after every blockade runner they see. zKillboard isn't that hard to use to figure that out. But this is a self-fixing problem. If people end up getting blapped too often, then they'll stop using BRs for valuable cargo so frequently till it becomes less profitable until pirates stop blapping on them every chance they get. Which leads to increased usage. There seems to be an ebb and flow to these things.

So I come back to my original point. It's cool. If it bugs you, fly something else or ask for a new kind of ship. Clearly there are people here who like it and are fine with ship as is.

It doesn't "bug" me. I am just lending voice to say the OP is correct. The bonus doesn't make a BR with high value cargo any safer (they are a target already) while it has the downside of making an empty BR more likely to be attacked.

Things are fine the way they are. It's true without the bonus you would have more utility because you could at least consider using the autopilot to move an empty BR around, but I don't think it needs to be removed to enable that. Having scan immunity and the ability to fit covert cloaks is almost completely redundant though given you cannot be scanned anyway if you have actIvated your cloak. I can see why the OP would prefer almost any other bonus given scan immunity does nothing to increase safety in any situation while making the ship more interesting target and more likely to be attacked in some situations.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#140 - 2016-10-22 04:34:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quintessen wrote:


I'm still lost on how it increases risk to haulers


If attacks are random then no matter what the hauler does, no matter how well they fly or what cargo they carry they wil be a target. This means all haulers are at higher risk as opposed to just those carrying high value cargo.



This.

Page or 2 prior my gank from this week. Scan would have shown I was not worth the gank really. My best items were 2 implants maybe 40-50 mil. If they dropped. Which they didn't. CBA to total up the dropped stuff for actual price...if they got 20-30 mil I'd be surprised. Not even half the cost of naked hull talos.

I pvp'd in the past. Karma says hi, I dropped people, someone dropped me...cycle of life in eve so no tears/rants in local.


I died for a crap load drop since not fast enough to catch undock forget my request.
They got crap items.

We both got short end of stick on that one really.

No one made out on the deal. If he saw the load, would have said not worth it, and I'd have a ship still most likely. And my ganker could have saved that sec status hit and his ship for a target worth their time. Win win for us all really.