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Remove immunity to cargo scanners from blockade runners
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#101 - 2016-10-20 20:37:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:


You're basically saying because frigs with sebos are the most common use of a PT they're the only possible use while stating all of the possible uses of the BR.


Frigates in highsec are a rare thing for gate camping, they just get chewed up by svipuls and t3 in a wardec. Equally a lot will be in an NPC corp so sitting on a gate running a sebo mean they are locking ships and an NPC frigate in highsec can only do one thing and thats scan ships.

PopeUrban wrote:

Also, the counter to the PT is similar to the counter to the BR bonus. Fit different **** before you undock and roll the dice.

balance wise they seem really similar to me. Niche use things that don't have really catastrophic effects on the meta.


There are two ways of doing it. The first is double wrap but that comes with its own risks as people will gank as its more than likely you are transporting something expensive. The second is to hide your expensive stuff with clutter. Fill your bay with low volume junk and most will simply think you are transporting junk to market.


That's like saying "put your passive targeter on a less obvious ship, or hide your scanning frig in a gang of other ships that look like they're doing something else"

Basically, niche use things with very similar negligable effects. They're natural counters to one another, and have very similar meta-only counterplay.

Your argument for removing the bonus from the BRs is basically "there's no hard counter" and what I'm saying is that there's no a hard counter for the PT either, and that's okay. Meta-counters are fine for stuff that has such narrow uses
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#102 - 2016-10-20 21:24:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:


One last try, this is the point, I like having the bonus, you don't like having the bonus, you have choices in 16 other hulls to choose from, I have only 4 to choose from, take the bonus away and now I have no choices.


It warps like an interceptor, aligns faster than many frigates, has a 10k+ cargo and can warp cloaked. These are the attributes that make BR amazing ships and all but impossible to stop in highsec and extreamly hard to catch in low and null. You don't chose this ship for the cargo scan immunity.

There have been a number of things that were removed for the good of the rest of the game that people wanted to keep. Remote AOE doomsdays for example.



"You don't chose this ship for the cargo scan immunity"
I do, I don't want a self appointed "Caldari customs officer" knowing what I have or don't have, intel is just as valuable as some cargo.

Also the Wreathe is extremely fast with the right fittings and pilot.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2016-10-20 21:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Piugattuk wrote:

"You don't chose this ship for the cargo scan immunity"
I do, I don't want a self appointed "Caldari customs officer" knowing what I have or don't have, intel is just as valuable as some cargo.


Then fly the ship well and they can't. This should be part of the reward for flying the ship well, not an automatic given which only puts them at greater risk.
Piugattuk wrote:

Also the Wreathe is extremely fast with the right fittings and pilot.


Wraith base align time 5.8 seconds.

Proator base align time 5.23 seconds

Wraith top warp speed 11.3au/s

My proator warp speed 18.5 au/s

Raith doesn't get a cov ops cloak so its going to be lockable.

No, BR are the single harest trasport to stop in highsec.

It makes no sense, you have been shown that this bonus has only made flying BR more dangerous, that it forces gankers to randomly attack rather than target and that its entirely redundant because the ship can already make itself unlockable in highsec. There really isn't any point to the bonus existing.
Cristl
#104 - 2016-10-20 21:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cristl
I've not read the whole thread, but blockade runners get nothing from scan immunity, so remove it.

Whether they *need* another role bonus I don't know.

Hmm, the lightweight +2 warpcore stab bonus? Sharing it with DSTs isn't so bad.

edit: and maybe give DSTs nullification: if they can get their fat arses out of dodge then they can run?!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2016-10-20 22:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Cristl wrote:
I've not read the whole thread, but blockade runners get nothing from scan immunity, so remove it.

Whether they *need* another role bonus I don't know.

Hmm, the lightweight +2 warpcore stab bonus? Sharing it with DSTs isn't so bad.

edit: and maybe give DSTs nullification: if they can get their fat arses out of dodge then they can run?!


They don't need anything.

My BR already aligns better than most frigates, warps faster than almost any interceptor out there and comes with a cov ops cloak. Flown well, BR are impossible to stop in high sec.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#106 - 2016-10-20 22:38:00 UTC
I kind of like the idea of leaving the cargo scan immunity present.

Nothing like trolling gankers.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Cristl
#107 - 2016-10-20 22:41:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They don't need anything.

BRs or DSTs ?

BRs are great, but giving them +2 warp strength and dropping scan shield probably wouldn't break stuff (basically: lone rangers could perhaps be evaded, but two or more after you and it's a guaranteed whack). And remember that BRs don't actually haul that much.

Giving DSTs nullification instead of +2 core: well, I can't see many making good use of it, but it does have fireside-story potential.

Overall: In my opinion there's too little sniffing out, stalking and chasing down prey, and too much camping ambushing, but it's hard to see how we can change that really.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#108 - 2016-10-20 22:52:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cristl wrote:
I've not read the whole thread, but blockade runners get nothing from scan immunity, so remove it.

Whether they *need* another role bonus I don't know.

Hmm, the lightweight +2 warpcore stab bonus? Sharing it with DSTs isn't so bad.

edit: and maybe give DSTs nullification: if they can get their fat arses out of dodge then they can run?!


They don't need anything.

My BR already aligns better than most frigates, warps faster than almost any interceptor out there and comes with a cov ops cloak. Flown well, BR are impossible to stop in high sec.


If they are impossible to stop then removing the bonus is a moot point, and then it does stand that keeping it to have a covert operation is the point of the ship.

There are many other ship that can use the covert ops cloak, while not as large of a cargo hold they still can do the job at lower volumes.

There are many scan alts that sit Aaaaaaallllll day long scanning ships as the pass by on their way to Jita or other places, everyday 7 days a week nearly 23 hours, for example "President Mr Trump" and the other scan alt Valestrae Morren sit all day between New Caldari and their gates related to destinations towards Jita, every time I pass thru I hear the sound that they are scanning me, go see for yourself, one flies a condor the other a heron.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#109 - 2016-10-20 22:59:36 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:


If they are impossible to stop then removing the bonus is a moot point, and then it does stand that keeping it to have a covert operation is the point of the ship.


No, keeping the bonus puts them at grater risk. You cannot ever allow someone to get a lock on you which means every time you undock in it you cannot afford to ever make a mistake or leave it uncloaked. At the same time gankers are forced to just randomly blap any BR the can lock onto because it is impossible for them to filter targets.




Piugattuk wrote:

There are many other ship that can use the covert ops cloak, while not as large of a cargo hold they still can do the job at lower volumes.


No other ship can do the job of a BR.

Piugattuk wrote:

There are many scan alts that sit Aaaaaaallllll day long scanning ships as the pass by on their way to Jita or other places, everyday 7 days a week nearly 23 hours, for example "President Mr Trump" and the other scan alt Valestrae Morren sit all day between New Caldari and their gates related to destinations towards Jita, every time I pass thru I hear the sound that they are scanning me, go see for yourself, one flies a condor the other a heron.


Which confirms what I said.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#110 - 2016-10-20 23:20:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
baltec1 wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:


If they are impossible to stop then removing the bonus is a moot point, and then it does stand that keeping it to have a covert operation is the point of the ship.


No, keeping the bonus puts them at grater risk. You cannot ever allow someone to get a lock on you which means every time you undock in it you cannot afford to ever make a mistake or leave it uncloaked. At the same time gankers are forced to just randomly blap any BR the can lock onto because it is impossible for them to filter targets.




Piugattuk wrote:

There are many other ship that can use the covert ops cloak, while not as large of a cargo hold they still can do the job at lower volumes.


No other ship can do the job of a BR.

Piugattuk wrote:

There are many scan alts that sit Aaaaaaallllll day long scanning ships as the pass by on their way to Jita or other places, everyday 7 days a week nearly 23 hours, for example "President Mr Trump" and the other scan alt Valestrae Morren sit all day between New Caldari and their gates related to destinations towards Jita, every time I pass thru I hear the sound that they are scanning me, go see for yourself, one flies a condor the other a heron.


Which confirms what I said.


If I and others are forced to fit against ganks on our mining ship and lose yield only for others to say too bad you need to fit your ship against ganks, so we do, why can't others also use the available tools/ships to deal with this problem, I often times fly a Venture to make my loss as cheap as possible, this also makes me unattractive to gankers because it's too cheap to be worth bragging about, I also fit civilian mining lasers, if and when it happens it won't be worth their time, same reason I fly cheaply fit ships, because I'm not giving up a pay day to nobody.

Even right now I'm doing salvaging of wrecks all over whilst letting others fight over the "skins" and other drops, why, cause they are after the riches I'm after my own ends, building rigs for myself.

If anything, if it is so important to you and others I would support removing the bonus "IF" we can fit a rig or mod with no drawbacks to keep the ability.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2016-10-20 23:52:46 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:


If I and others are forced to fit against ganks on our mining ship and lose yield only for others to say too bad you need to fit your ship against ganks, so we do, why can't others also use the available tools/ships to deal with this problem, I often times fly a Venture to make my loss as cheap as possible, this also makes me unattractive to gankers because it's too cheap to be worth bragging about, I also fit civilian mining lasers, if and when it happens it won't be worth their time, same reason I fly cheaply fit ships, because I'm not giving up a pay day to nobody.


I have been fighting for better mining barges for years now, the current barges are very poor.



Piugattuk wrote:

Even right now I'm doing salvaging of wrecks all over whilst letting others fight over the "skins" and other drops, why, cause they are after the riches I'm after my own ends, building rigs for myself.

If anything, if it is so important to you and others I would support removing the bonus "IF" we can fit a rig or mod with no drawbacks to keep the ability.


Why do you want such a mod when you can already get the same result double wrapping?
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#112 - 2016-10-21 00:58:42 UTC
Baltec1, doubling is not always practical when on the fly, hence my fly & buy routes take me across many regions, if I'm not on the move then I'm being lazy that day.

Sun Tzu art of war, many quote it, here is some to pay attention to;


1. Movement and Development of Troops describes the different situations in which an army finds itself as it moves through new enemy territories, and how to respond to these situations. Much of this section focuses on evaluating the intentions of others.


A. All of EVE is enemy territory, as others have said you undock you are not safe, the intention of others is quite clear, they want my and your lucky charms, how you respond to it by the use of the tools and tactics allowed by our equipment.


2. Intelligence and Espionage focuses on the importance of developing good information sources, and specifies the five types of intelligence sources and how to best manage each of them.


B. When they don't have intel on what others are moving they are blind and must make a shot in the dark, any criminal, rapist, etc, they prey on what they think they can overcome or have value to them, take away one and you leave only the other, can they over come, this is the question, are they fast enough to catch it, at this point it becomes a question of is it worth it when others will come through with exactly what they want...most people will wait for a sure thing then what is behind door 1.



EVE is a place abounding with enemies, you must treat it exactly like you are at war, the enemy is at the gate (literally), taking a strategic advantage away to give the enemy full view of your cards....I prey you don't run PL strategic forces.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2016-10-21 01:04:16 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
I prey you don't run PL strategic forces.



I'm not the one fighting to keep something that makes them more at risk by forcing their enemy to randomly attack anything they can catch without looking.

Frankly, all you are saying is you can't be bothered to take steps to hide your cargo yourself so you want CCP to do it for you and don't care that it screws over both haulers and gankers at the same time.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#114 - 2016-10-21 01:37:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I prey you don't run PL strategic forces.



I'm not the one fighting to keep something that makes them more at risk by forcing their enemy to randomly attack anything they can catch without looking.

Frankly, all you are saying is you can't be bothered to take steps to hide your cargo yourself so you want CCP to do it for you and don't care that it screws over both haulers and gankers at the same time.



Listen, give the Wreathe a try, I will pimp fit a Wreathe out for you (at no cost), I build them, have them all over new Eden, I build T-2 mods for them (I got them in the oven now), I have agility rigs for them, believe me, they are fast, I will even throw in WCS.

In a Wreathe I typically carry cargo expanders, agility mods, and warp core stabs, they take very little space and give me the ability to fit for the situation I find myself in.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2016-10-21 01:50:04 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I prey you don't run PL strategic forces.



I'm not the one fighting to keep something that makes them more at risk by forcing their enemy to randomly attack anything they can catch without looking.

Frankly, all you are saying is you can't be bothered to take steps to hide your cargo yourself so you want CCP to do it for you and don't care that it screws over both haulers and gankers at the same time.



Listen, give the Wreathe a try, I will pimp fit a Wreathe out for you (at no cost), I build them, have them all over new Eden, I build T-2 mods for them (I got them in the oven now), I have agility rigs for them, believe me, they are fast, I will even throw in WCS.

In a Wreathe I typically carry cargo expanders, agility mods, and warp core stabs, they take very little space and give me the ability to fit for the situation I find myself in.


They cant use a cov ops cloak, align slower and cant warp as fast.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#116 - 2016-10-21 02:00:04 UTC
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2016-10-21 02:04:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I prey you don't run PL strategic forces.



I'm not the one fighting to keep something that makes them more at risk by forcing their enemy to randomly attack anything they can catch without looking.

Frankly, all you are saying is you can't be bothered to take steps to hide your cargo yourself so you want CCP to do it for you and don't care that it screws over both haulers and gankers at the same time.


oh god.

This is like someone saying "you force me to beat you when you make me angry". No, you are not forced by anyone to randomly attack BRs. That is YOUR choice.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2016-10-21 02:15:41 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I prey you don't run PL strategic forces.



I'm not the one fighting to keep something that makes them more at risk by forcing their enemy to randomly attack anything they can catch without looking.

Frankly, all you are saying is you can't be bothered to take steps to hide your cargo yourself so you want CCP to do it for you and don't care that it screws over both haulers and gankers at the same time.


oh god.

This is like someone saying "you force me to beat you when you make me angry". No, you are not forced by anyone to randomly attack BRs. That is YOUR choice.


No its not a choice for people who enjoy highsec piracy aka ganking. You either take the gamble and open fire on BR blind or you don't bother with BR.

The first is a ****** mechanic for both parties the second is yet more content lost in highsec.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2016-10-21 02:32:14 UTC
That is exactly what choice means. You have options.

I'd think you'd be far more upset about warp to zero and undock bookmarks that nearly completely make people invincible.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2016-10-21 02:50:54 UTC
I see the two sides going back and forth on this and I'm left wondering if BRs are too easy to pop uncloaked. Certainly if it's worth popping BRs left and right with no idea of their cargo then something is wrong with the profit equation. If gankers can legitimately afford to gank all BRs they come across perhaps ganking is a bit too profitable when BRs are concerned. Maybe a better mechanic would be if BRs destroyed all their cargo on death. Kind of a self-destruction option. Can't get caught with elicit goods if there's nothing left after being blown up.

That said, I can see both sides of the argument a bit, but for those worrying about the fact that you can't just leave a BR sitting around empty anymore. We can simply instruct the BR pilot to fly a random distance from a celestial and stay cloaked. Who the hell leaves their BR uncloaked for longer than they have to?