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[ASCENSION] Jump Range Changes

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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#101 - 2016-10-11 17:57:54 UTC
Makeleth Riatu Solette wrote:
I approve, but am also with the sizeable camp that jump fatigue needs some serious rework.

Introduce a drug that reduces the amount of jump fatigue accrued at the expense of combat capabilities.


That favours large gangs of caps even more than the small gangs

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
The CloudyOne
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#102 - 2016-10-11 17:58:36 UTC
vallenaa wrote:
Literally the week i sell my Hel and melt my pilots brain because the current state of jump drives is a **** joke and has been for years.

Thanks ccp but a little too late.


:drama:

Nobody cares.
MAS0RAKSH
Doomheim
#103 - 2016-10-11 18:01:40 UTC
the JFat timer is fine to prevent the problems of groups jumping from one end of the map to the other. the problem is some areas of space became inaccessible from low-sec.

maybe add some newly explored areas in the empty space between regions that are currently connected by a a single jump lane or do the hard thing of moving regions a little closer to each other. http://i.imgur.com/bzy88xB.jpg

defensive jumps... how about a mid slot propulsion upgrade that boosts jump range but disables launching of fighters/bombers/drones, turrets, missiles, and smartbombs for 60 minutes (can't be removed during the timer) -10% per level of jump drive calibration (which anyone in a cap should have) setting their defenseless state to 30 minutes total.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#104 - 2016-10-11 18:05:37 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
What do you all think would be the result of swapping the changes? That is, give the supers the longer distance. That would generate some edge cases where supers could be utilized but they'd be entirely without dread and FAX support. Could make for some interesting decisions by the attackers. (Of course, could entirely ruin the game - I'm just musing here.)


Since CCP have thoughtfully reintroduced tracking Titans and anti-subcap DDs, and also made fighters total helldeath against subcaps, Supercaps are now strictly superior to standard caps. They don't need cap support. In large numbers, they barely need subcap support.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Slowdive Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2016-10-11 18:30:00 UTC
awesome!!!
Tosan Ijonen
Dropbears Anonymous
Brave Collective
#106 - 2016-10-11 18:35:55 UTC
I like the changes so far. Not saying that everything will be wonderland-perfect, but it's a step in the right direction.
Maybe give non-supercaps (and Blops) another 0.5LY max jumprange on top.
I'd also like to see some tweaks to fatigue though.
I'd suggest giving the non-supercaps some slight reduction in fatigue generation, maybe make it so that a carrier making a 7LY-jump generates the same fatigue as a super doing a 6LY-jump. I rather like the idea of supercaps being more sluggish in their projection across the map compared to normal caps. I think they are too powerful to allow otherwise.
I'd also suggest capping the maximum fatigue at 24 hours. This way fatigue keeps people from just piling in on top of ongoing fights halfway across the map, while reducing the PITA that is moving somewhere, when time is not as much as a critical factor like with fights. It also keeps the 'reward' for far-sighted planing of where to stage your caps.

And on a half-related account: I'd also suggest giving POS jump bridges a fatigue reduction.

Disclaimer: I pulled all numbers in this post directly out of my rectum.
Curious Onlooker
LE YOLO LE SWAG LE 9GAG YOLOSWAG SWAGGER CORP YOLO
#107 - 2016-10-11 18:55:25 UTC
Subscriber numbers are hurting. Quick, pander to PL and make it easier for them to interfere with small alliance conflicts anywhere in eve. That won't continue to drive people away.

Honestly, this change is really disappointing to see, and I say that as a player with multiple cap ship pilots. This change does very little to make my life easier in game, while providing a dramatic increase in the danger of PL interference from further and further away. Keep jump ranges where they are now, this change benefits only a few select groups, for the rest of us, it stifles gameplay
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#108 - 2016-10-11 19:05:50 UTC
MAS0RAKSH wrote:
the problem is some areas of space became inaccessible from low-sec.

I live in Stain which is un-accessible from lowsec, except for jump freighters.
I dont see any problems with that.
Geography is different throughout the galaxy, which make things interesting.
Cade Windstalker
#109 - 2016-10-11 19:38:52 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Makeleth Riatu Solette wrote:
I approve, but am also with the sizeable camp that jump fatigue needs some serious rework.

Introduce a drug that reduces the amount of jump fatigue accrued at the expense of combat capabilities.


That favours large gangs of caps even more than the small gangs


This, as well as organizations that can afford to do things like have move-toons and combat toons or something of the sort.

Unless CCP basically kluge something together so that the character can't leave the ship and can not fight in any meaningful way then all they'll have done is create something for people to find a way to abuse.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#110 - 2016-10-11 19:40:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Cody
And so the cancer is out of remission! Stage 4 Space Pancreatic Cancer. The system was doing well at breaking up large sov blocs along side the new sov system and now we get to return to the old times (eventually) and it will be SupersOnline again. Well I guess we needed an excuse for the new Industrial Complexes to build new supers en mass.

#herewego

Hey can we restrict supers from jumping regional gates?
Gugl1 Molou
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#111 - 2016-10-11 19:41:22 UTC
It's probably been asked earlier, but has the repercussions of double jumping been fully appreciated? Imagine jumping a dread bomb 7 LY away, furthermore, you would like to get back from said dread bomb, but jumping back would give you ~5 hours fatigue.


/gugl
Cade Windstalker
#112 - 2016-10-11 19:42:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
What do you all think would be the result of swapping the changes? That is, give the supers the longer distance. That would generate some edge cases where supers could be utilized but they'd be entirely without dread and FAX support. Could make for some interesting decisions by the attackers. (Of course, could entirely ruin the game - I'm just musing here.)


Since CCP have thoughtfully reintroduced tracking Titans and anti-subcap DDs, and also made fighters total helldeath against subcaps, Supercaps are now strictly superior to standard caps. They don't need cap support. In large numbers, they barely need subcap support.


Yeah...

I mean, there's some nuance missing. At least now we don't have combat refitting and the guns are huge so you don't just have a Titan that can swap from anti-cap to anti-Subcap on a whim.

Also Fighters aren't complete sub-cap death after the last round to tweaks, which is good.

That said, in an even-numbers fight, there is very little reason to have people in non-specialized subcaps over Capitals or Supercaps now.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#113 - 2016-10-11 19:46:19 UTC
Gugl1 Molou wrote:
It's probably been asked earlier, but has the repercussions of double jumping been fully appreciated? Imagine jumping a dread bomb 7 LY away, furthermore, you would like to get back from said dread bomb, but jumping back would give you ~5 hours fatigue.


/gugl

The bomb is supposed to explode, isnt it? ;-)
Dont drop it that far if you cannot handle a return trip, what's the problem?
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#114 - 2016-10-11 19:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
While capital pilots rejoice with these news there are several downsides of this change regarding hotdrop/non-consensual PvP aspect of this game which I think will definitely get overlooked.

1) Alliances with too many capitals/capital alts will be able to secure/cover more space to make it %100 safe for nullsec ratting. For example, right now if you drop on a ratting ship in Delve you will get 15+ faxes, carriers, supers and titans on you, which are alt characters that these people have on stand by. Well at least we were able to target systems outside their range. Now there will not be such a system. Mind you there is no counter to this at all. If you drop your own supers the other side will just escalate. Then you need a super force that can beat the other side. Not only this is classic N+1, but it does not make sense asking the whaler to move a competent capital force just to kill a ratter ship every single time, even if the whaler had such a force, which she doesn't, because these forces are privy to big sov holding nullsec entities to begin with.

I don't think these alliances are entitled to %100 safe ratting because they have a sheer capital force. If you want to have increased capital jump range, to balance this I would at least make Mobile Cynosural Inhibitors relevant again, giving it let's say a 20 seconds anchor timer, relevant tank to survive a little bit (lets say 10 seconds - around 50k ehp) vs carrier fighters and very importantly the ability to cancel ongoing cynoes.

2) Jumprange was one most important exclusive ability of BLOPS ships. Not the fatigue reduction, because you can always wait after a hotdrop. BLOPS ships are now relatively obsolete. Whalers will prefer dropping carriers on people's carriers or rattlesnakes. Why is this bad? Because it takes entry level to an advanced whaling group into carrier level skills, and BLOPS were meant to be the ships which drop behind enemy lines, snatch a target quickly, and get safe. Not carriers.

-------

[Bitter whaler rant mode on] But these will be overlooked, because these alliances are organized to make their voice most heard and have the most influence on Eve policy and capital pilots outnumber BLOPS pilots. Our posts will get downvoted to hell and ignored as always because we (whalers) are a minority vs nullsec entities, and we are worse in metagaming (upvoting stuff, going for CSM, posting on reddit, making memes) since we prefer playing the game. [/Bitter whaler rant mode off]

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Gugl1 Molou
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#115 - 2016-10-11 19:50:49 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Gugl1 Molou wrote:
It's probably been asked earlier, but has the repercussions of double jumping been fully appreciated? Imagine jumping a dread bomb 7 LY away, furthermore, you would like to get back from said dread bomb, but jumping back would give you ~5 hours fatigue.


/gugl

The bomb is supposed to explode, isnt it? ;-)
Dont drop it that far if you cannot handle a return trip, what's the problem?



Of course it'll be better to take the fatigue over dying, but I was hoping you'd see my point as taking the cyno back home would screw you over for 5 hours.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#116 - 2016-10-11 19:53:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Since CCP have thoughtfully reintroduced tracking Titans and anti-subcap DDs, and also made fighters total helldeath against subcaps, Supercaps are now strictly superior to standard caps. They don't need cap support. In large numbers, they barely need subcap support.

BTW, compared to the Age Before Fatigue, even dictors and HICs are not really needed anymore.
That's why I'm against the increase of range for supers. For caps though, it looks fine.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#117 - 2016-10-11 19:59:17 UTC
Gugl1 Molou wrote:
Of course it'll be better to take the fatigue over dying, but I was hoping you'd see my point as taking the cyno back home would screw you over for 5 hours.

And I was hoping you will read my message as "you are not obliged to jump to the maximum possible distance".

DISCLAIMER: Joke incoming!
You scored a kill today? Great, have a rest, let those supers rat in peace ;-)
Joe Barbarian
Back Street Boys With Capital Toys
#118 - 2016-10-11 20:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Barbarian
Olmeca Gold wrote:
While capital pilots rejoice with these news there are several downsides of this change regarding hotdrop/non-consensual PvP aspect of this game which I think will definitely get overlooked.

1) Alliances with too many capitals/capital alts will be able to secure/cover more space to make it %100 safe for nullsec ratting. For example, right now if you drop on a ratting ship in Delve you will get 15+ faxes, carriers, supers and titans on you, which are alt characters that these people have on stand by. Well at least we were able to target systems outside their range. Now there will not be such a system. Mind you there is no counter to this at all. If you drop your own supers the other side will just escalate. Then you need a super force that can beat the other side. Not only this is classic N+1, but it does not make sense asking the whaler to move a competent capital force just to kill a ratter ship every single time, even if the whaler had such a force, which she doesn't, because these forces are privy to big sov holding nullsec entities to begin with.

I don't think these alliances are entitled to %100 safe ratting because they have a sheer capital force. If you want to have increased capital jump range, to balance this I would at least make Mobile Cynosural Inhibitors relevant again, giving it let's say a 20 seconds anchor timer, relevant tank to survive a little bit (lets say 10 seconds - around 50k ehp) vs carrier fighters and very importantly the ability to cancel ongoing cynoes.

2) Jumprange was one most important exclusive ability of BLOPS ships. Not the fatigue reduction, because you can always wait after a hotdrop. BLOPS ships are now relatively obsolete. Whalers will prefer dropping carriers on people's carriers or rattlesnakes. Why is this bad? Because it takes entry level to an advanced whaling group into carrier level skills, and BLOPS were meant to be the ships which drop behind enemy lines, snatch a target quickly, and get safe. Not carriers.

-------

[Bitter whaler rant mode on] But these will be overlooked, because these alliances are organized to make their voice most heard and have the most influence on Eve policy and capital pilots outnumber BLOPS pilots. Our posts will get downvoted to hell and ignored as always because we (whalers) are a minority vs nullsec entities, and we are worse in metagaming (upvoting stuff, going for CSM, posting on reddit, making memes) since we prefer playing the game. [/Bitter whaler rant mode off]


Every ratting carrier is a bait carrier. Stop biting we'll stop dropping.

I'll +1 CCPs change and wait for the next bout of jump changes that are sure to come.
AllMappedOut
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#119 - 2016-10-11 20:33:53 UTC
Such a lazy change.

Instead of addressing the real issue (choke points, eg: Aridia), they have gone back on their reduction in Force Projection and given NCPL a huge boost to being a nomad alliance.

Why is travelling across the map such an issue? I get that moving capitals is such a risky piece of behaviour because of choke points; there are so few places where you can move your cap to that it makes catching your super very easy.

However, that's the issue - a move op for an alliance does not get dropped upon, so why buff ranges? The best solution would be to reroute some systems so that their range in LY is more in line with the change you wish to see, but that would be :effort:.
Langbaobao
Tr0pa de elite.
#120 - 2016-10-11 21:06:34 UTC
A long awaited and clamored for change. Was hoping that the jump range would be increased to 7.5 ly for both supers and normal caps, which would have been IMO a good middle road between the old 10 ly and the current 5ly range. But I guess we'll live for now with 7 and 6 ly respectively, hoping that a new iteration will bump this to 7.5 for both classes once CCP convinces itself that the additional range is not an issue.