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[ASCENSION] Jump Range Changes

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#181 - 2017-01-20 10:37:18 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
@CCP Larrikin
If you increase jump range and get rid of choke points - do you think it should come in one package with locking capships from using gates?

Cynojammers were a thing back then. Fights for subcapital superiority were real and meaningful. Now that you dont need subcaps neither to put down a jammer, nor even to tackle supers - what is the role of subcap fleet in the meta? Just drop the caps, and who drops the bigger blob wins.



i agree with this capitals no longer really need to take gates. This greatly increases their range (particularly along region lines)

Using gates also increases their vulnerability - ESPECIALLY along region lines.

Why would anyone suggest removing the chance for potential targets?



maybe on small group level but when doing ops with the alliance my capital pilot is in not really

we generally can see 5 jumps away as a minimum and only have to go through that one gate. before the range change yeah it could be a bit scary when we needed to go through 2-3 gates but you don't need to do that anymore, not for range and not for fatigue
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#182 - 2017-01-23 02:26:48 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
@CCP Larrikin
If you increase jump range and get rid of choke points - do you think it should come in one package with locking capships from using gates?

Cynojammers were a thing back then. Fights for subcapital superiority were real and meaningful. Now that you dont need subcaps neither to put down a jammer, nor even to tackle supers - what is the role of subcap fleet in the meta? Just drop the caps, and who drops the bigger blob wins.



i agree with this capitals no longer really need to take gates. This greatly increases their range (particularly along region lines)

Using gates also increases their vulnerability - ESPECIALLY along region lines.

Why would anyone suggest removing the chance for potential targets?



maybe on small group level but when doing ops with the alliance my capital pilot is in not really

we generally can see 5 jumps away as a minimum and only have to go through that one gate. before the range change yeah it could be a bit scary when we needed to go through 2-3 gates but you don't need to do that anymore, not for range and not for fatigue

Fair enough but not all space is the same. About a week ago we managed to bubble 20 dreads and carriers as they jumped through a gate - Less than half of them got out.
It was pure chance, we had gone to nul for a timer and came across these guys on the way home.

That is the sort of game play we would lose completely if capitals were to have the ability to use gates removed.
Yes it may be a rare thing but when it happens is a lot of fun (and content that would otherwise not be there).
-- - -- - --
My mains 2 top value kills for this year - an Aeon caught jumping a gate in lowsec, and an Erebus caught aligning to a gate that for some reason got an aggression timer and died on the undock of the Astrahus he was using as a mid point.

-- - -- - -- - --
Ratting carriers get caught daily using gates to get to lvl 5 missions. More content that would go away if capitals lose the ability to use gates.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#183 - 2017-01-24 06:41:55 UTC
more of that content may go away but others would grow as the threat of capitals from a region over showing up would be lowered same as when fatigue was first added. The original idea behind fatigue was to make capital local assets gates work against that. when the jump range was lower it wasn't as much of an issue but the current one can reach most systems in a single region and using a region gate doubles that range.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#184 - 2017-01-24 08:42:04 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
more of that content may go away but others would grow as the threat of capitals from a region over showing up would be lowered same as when fatigue was first added. The original idea behind fatigue was to make capital local assets gates work against that. when the jump range was lower it wasn't as much of an issue but the current one can reach most systems in a single region and using a region gate doubles that range.

Yes - And where exactly is the problem here?

Sorry you already answered that didn't you - The group my capital pilot belongs to - Is risk averse.

You want safe sov, I understand that and removing gate access for capitals would ensure you that "again".
But should the rest of Eve suffer because you want safer sov?


I wonder if it would be at all possible to guard your region gates and turn them into areas of content - If as you say, they are a threat because they can allow enemies to enter your region (not by jumping but by using a gate).

Isn't there a thing called bubbles that can be placed around a gate to stop intruders long enough for the defenders to engage them?
Oh and if you want a bit more of an advantage, put cloaky eyes on the other side of the gate. That way you know exactly when and how big a force is using that gate to get a supposed advantage over you.

Bottom line Lugh Eve isn't about "safe", it is about using available mechanics to your advantage.
Asking Devs to remove a mechanic because you believe it makes it easy for someone to invade you - Is saying, we the risk averse want CCP to protect us from everyone who may not like us.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#185 - 2017-01-25 04:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
m8 my capital pilot has nothing to worry about its my low sec main who has been enjoying the lack of large block capital fleets since fatigue was added.


it's not about 'safe' when capitals get large ranges and fatigue penalties are reduced smaller groups just can't even put battleships on field in engagements that have nothing to do with the large blocks.


one of the great things about the changes is now smaller groups can fight each other using capitals pushing this even further would be a good thing
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#186 - 2017-01-25 22:31:31 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
m8 my capital pilot has nothing to worry about its my low sec main who has been enjoying the lack of large block capital fleets since fatigue was added.


it's not about 'safe' when capitals get large ranges and fatigue penalties are reduced smaller groups just can't even put battleships on field in engagements that have nothing to do with the large blocks.


one of the great things about the changes is now smaller groups can fight each other using capitals pushing this even further would be a good thing
Seriously, your group isn't taking advantage of the nulsec access for lowsec groups?
You aren't joining any of the lowsec fights where TIDI turns a 15 minute encounter into a 5 or 6 hour marathon?
You haven't seen any of the action where 200 or 300 battleships with capital support from each side face off over a timer?
Or a fight where each side batfones larger entities, often turning what could be a fun fight into a blueball event?

I've primarily lived in lowsec for the last 4 years and have never had so much content - We don't always win but even losing can be fun when it is a GF and yes we on the odd occasion have block groups turn up. Sometimes fighting with us, more often against.

I don't know which lowsec group you belong to but if they aren't enjoying the extra content since jump ranges were increased - they aren't trying. If your battleship fleet can't take on the capitals alone (and you can't field your own), I'd suggest reaching out to other groups and 3rd partying or even finding a group (or 2) you can set temp blue for content - Your BS's will find the going easier if they aren't trying to fight alone. Also, 1 or 2 Faxes can increase your BS fleets chances of victory.


My main belongs to an alliance of just over 1,000 that lives in lowsec, the added content since the changes, is very welcome.

NB; When exactly were fatigue penalties reduced?
Quote:
Q: How is Jump Fatigue changing?
A: Its not. If you jump 7LY in a Carrier, you will get 80m Jump Fatigue, and 8m Jump Reactivation Timer.

2LY extra jump range (with JDC 5) is not "huge", it just breaks up the many killer choke points the previous 5 ly inflicted on capital pilots.
Quote:
All Capitals (Carriers, Force Auxillaries, Dreadnoughts) have their base jump range increased to 3.5 (+1) light years (7 (+2) light years max skills)


Lugh - There are many alternatives available - Calling for nerfs should be at the very bottom of your list.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#187 - 2017-02-03 16:26:45 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

NB; When exactly were fatigue penalties reduced?


It's indirect but for a long enough total trip, you could save one or more jumps thus reducing the total fatigue. Of course, since we see people SD/suicide their cap assets to buy elsewhere, it might not have much effect.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
#188 - 2017-04-29 20:52:12 UTC
This is tremendous and timely. Even the best supercap operators conveying support over the last few pages - hopefully it sparks further debate and controversy.

And for those burgeoning capitalistas who have finally completed calibration 5, I commend you for relying on fewer lowsec stargates -augments in navigation are always exciting when they coincide with extant hangar utility.

Zealously, I must ask the Devs and greater gameplay community if further change is warranted.

Put simply, most elements in EVE's UI are click and drag to any perceivable lower and upper limit (window sizing, PI extractor placement, etc.). If we can "unlock" the jump drive feature to simply let pilots define with a few mouse clicks exactly how many light years out and milli-AUs above a discrete point in space (be it numerical coordinates, proximity to a friendly ship in space or other shared bookmark) they intend to hop, and presto the hull goes orange.

Certain recurring points of interest would be available through a scrollable menu or mere hotkey config. The other consideration, capitals have to reach 'warp appropriate' velocities (hyperspatial rigs and warp accel modules make the difference here) before their jump drive is ready, with a correlative capacitor use during the initial alignment. This opens the door to fleet command 'Jump Wing'. No particular desto alignment unless you already have eyes; last-minute tweaking of orientation with respect to adjacent ships in the intended drop to best tactical approximate.

Pre-jump velocity, if carried out properly, unleashes new insta warp at grid load potential, with various capitals angled optimally for system stargates, stations to bubble, etc.

As this is a hypothetical adjustment, which mechanisms currently in-game would reinforce or discourage this technique?

And all in all, thank you CCP and community for taking further capital changes into consideration these last several months.
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