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[November] Orca Changes

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Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#301 - 2016-11-13 01:26:12 UTC
Careby wrote:
As long as you fit it sensibly, it probably won't be ganked.

This.

I am not sure how you want to gank an Orca if the pilot has at least the basic skills for tanking. The live Orca has already ~200k EHP and with the patch it gets another boost. How is you plan to kill that in high-sec? Throw Maelstroms at it until there are so many Concord ships that the server crashes? You can't get it with suspect either, as mining drones do not react to loot stealing and besides: there is no loot to steal with a cargo hold that huge.

Now you can probably bump it away, but keep in mind that the drones have up to 60k range, plus another 24k for potential drone links. I'd say that someone who spends that much time bumping an Orca out of a belt really has serious problems. :D
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2016-11-13 11:06:56 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Careby wrote:
As long as you fit it sensibly, it probably won't be ganked.

This.

I am not sure how you want to gank an Orca if the pilot has at least the basic skills for tanking. The live Orca has already ~200k EHP and with the patch it gets another boost. How is you plan to kill that in high-sec? Throw Maelstroms at it until there are so many Concord ships that the server crashes? You can't get it with suspect either, as mining drones do not react to loot stealing and besides: there is no loot to steal with a cargo hold that huge.

Now you can probably bump it away, but keep in mind that the drones have up to 60k range, plus another 24k for potential drone links. I'd say that someone who spends that much time bumping an Orca out of a belt really has serious problems. :D


Those suicide catalyst, can deal 600dps? cost few mil. Then concord reaction in 0.5 is 30sec? that gives 18k dps per catalyst, 12 should take current orca down.
Now add to that exploit part, that suiciders who have already -10ss, they move arround in pods, and there own alt orca launch catalyst for them in space, so that they can board them and have full time before concord reaction to shoot at your orca.
Now add to that fact, that goons are who will gain most from current rorqual changes, somewhere else someone counted how much ratting cariers they lost by last half year, 11, so it will be in there interest to cut down hsec supply, as they will oversupply market in no time with those numbers.
Careby
#303 - 2016-11-13 11:58:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Careby
Raven Ship wrote:
Those suicide catalyst, can deal 600dps? cost few mil. Then concord reaction in 0.5 is 30sec? that gives 18k dps per catalyst, 12 should take current orca down.
Now add to that exploit part, that suiciders who have already -10ss, they move arround in pods, and there own alt orca launch catalyst for them in space, so that they can board them and have full time before concord reaction to shoot at your orca...


It's not impossible to gank a properly fit Orca now, and it won't be impossible to do after the expansion. But the resources and coordination it takes mean it doesn't happen very often. Most highsec Orca losses can be explained. Aside from flying under war dec or kill right, one recurring theme is improper fit. It is possible to "anti tank" an Orca by fitting cargohold modules and rigs, and you can be sure gankers will scan your fittings and do their math before committing themselves. There are usually enough miners with weakly tanked ships to keep them busy.

Example 1: current Orca with no fittings, 117k EHP (according to Pyfa)
Example 2: current Orca with 3 T2 Cargohold Optimization rigs and 2 Expanded Cargohold II, 80k EHP
Example 3: current Orca with 3 T2 Transverse Bulkhead rigs, Damage Control II, and Reinforced Bulkheads II, 385k EHP

The expansion brings some changes to the tank, mainly more shield and less structure HP. I haven't worked out the details but there will continue to be tradeoffs between function and defense. There will undoubtedly be a lot more Orcas out mining ore and ice. Many pilots will choose to fit drone rigs to maximize their yield. I can't say this choice is necessarily wrong, but it increases their odds of losing their ships. Maybe that extra yield will make up for their losses.
Je'ron
The Happy Shooters
#304 - 2016-11-13 13:22:55 UTC
ROFL at those "OMG They are getting a 600k EHP, 800 DPS, 250k m3, 1600 m3/min, anchorable/unbumpable, mine fleet protecting, boosting Orca" whines.

You will need to fit a lot of modules and rigs on your Orca to get that: DC2, Reinforced Bulkheads, Transverse Bulkhead, Shield extenders, Shield Hardeners, Defense Field Extenders, DDAs, Drone Nav computers, Sebos, Expanded Cargohold, Cargohold Optimizers, Mining Augmentors, MWD, Higgs Anchor, Remote Reps + Augmentors, Remote Shield boosters, Mining Foreman Bursts, Shield Command Bursts.

Remind me again, how much PG & CPU and how many high, med, low and rig slots does the Orca have?
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#305 - 2016-11-14 00:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Raw Matters
Raven Ship wrote:
Those suicide catalyst, can deal 600dps?

I like math, so let's do some math.

Concord reaction time in 0.5 according to Wiki: ~19s
Catalyst fitting: 603 DPS @9,769,467 ISK
Orca EHP with reasonable mining fitting: ~250,000 post patch

That's 11,457 damage per Cataclyst, so you need 22 of them to kill the Orca. That means for a total cost of 214,928,274 ISK you can high-sec gank an Orca in 0.5 space.

I don't see this becoming a common thing.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#306 - 2016-11-14 01:05:30 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Raven Ship wrote:
Those suicide catalyst, can deal 600dps?

I like math, so let's do some math.

Concord reaction time in 0.5 according to Wiki: ~19s
Catalyst fitting: 603 DPS @9,769,467 ISK
Orca EHP with reasonable mining fitting: ~250,000 post patch

That's 11,457 damage per Cataclyst, so you need 22 of them to kill the Orca. That means for a total cost of 214,928,274 ISK you can high-sec gank an Orca in 0.5 space.

I don't see this becoming a common thing.

But there are fleets of 10 cats ganking skiffs in hs. So, who knows.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2016-11-14 10:21:01 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:

I don't see this becoming a common thing.


May be as Orca's in majority do not stay at belt for now. So if you do not look at suicides activity you will definitely not notice it.

Raw Matters wrote:

That means for a total cost of 214,928,274 ISK you can high-sec gank an Orca in 0.5 space.


And as you do not see this happening, you do not see also that suicides collect wrecks right after kill, with npc alts, with addiction to insurance if any ever bother, cost for them is much lower. Also from killmails I did seen, it were around 3-5mil per catalyst.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#308 - 2016-11-14 11:49:09 UTC
Mark O'Helm wrote:

But there are fleets of 10 cats ganking skiffs in hs. So, who knows.


5 so far this month. Not exactly a large number given the amount of skiffs out there.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#309 - 2016-11-14 14:53:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mark O'Helm wrote:

But there are fleets of 10 cats ganking skiffs in hs. So, who knows.


5 so far this month. Not exactly a large number given the amount of skiffs out there.

there is an 12 man NPC fleet in Everyshore. Their kills often does'nt show up on zkill.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
Cade Windstalker
#310 - 2016-11-14 15:26:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
baltec1 wrote:
Mark O'Helm wrote:

But there are fleets of 10 cats ganking skiffs in hs. So, who knows.


5 so far this month. Not exactly a large number given the amount of skiffs out there.


Gotta say Baltec1 you're one of the highlights of the forums. Always nice to see someone fairly reasonable around ready to jump in with actual evidence.

Sorry for any damage this does to your shitposting cred LolBlink

And yeah, for comparison there are more than 10 pods suicide ganked in Amarr every day. 10 skiffs in a month is a mild annoyance in the grand scheme of things.

Mark O'Helm wrote:
there is an 12 man NPC fleet in Everyshore. Their kills often does'nt show up on zkill.


Then you have no proof of their impact or activities and that makes discussing them pretty much pointless.

I may as well say that there's a super top secret goon Bomber fleet running around killing Titans, but their kills don't show up on zKill so there's no proof...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#311 - 2016-11-14 17:26:18 UTC
Mark O'Helm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mark O'Helm wrote:

But there are fleets of 10 cats ganking skiffs in hs. So, who knows.


5 so far this month. Not exactly a large number given the amount of skiffs out there.

there is an 12 man NPC fleet in Everyshore. Their kills often does'nt show up on zkill.


What do NPC fleets have to do with anything?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#312 - 2016-11-14 17:34:11 UTC
"I know this thread is about the Orca, and imma let you finish-

But ganking is the worst thing of all time" - EVE-O Forums 20XX
Cade Windstalker
#313 - 2016-11-14 17:37:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

What do NPC fleets have to do with anything?


NPC is a Corp (or Alliance, I honestly can't remember). That's their ticker. He's not talking about literal Rats pewing miners.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#314 - 2016-11-14 19:07:15 UTC
I meant players in an npc corp, working together as a fleet of at least 10 catalysts, an unknown count of scouts and at least 2 bumpers.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#315 - 2016-11-14 19:16:01 UTC
You do realise that km get posted anyway these days. I haven't manually posted a mail for several years now even on my NPC alts.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#316 - 2016-11-15 00:19:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You do realise that km get posted anyway these days. I haven't manually posted a mail for several years now even on my NPC alts.

They don't. Only if you post them manually or if the victim or the char with the final blow has an api key at zkb (or their corps). CCP publicly thought about the idea of making all kills available for a while but dismissed the idea eventually.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Anne Sol
State War Academy
Caldari State
#317 - 2016-11-15 11:01:06 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Raven Ship wrote:
Those suicide catalyst, can deal 600dps?

I like math, so let's do some math.

Concord reaction time in 0.5 according to Wiki: ~19s
Catalyst fitting: 603 DPS @9,769,467 ISK
Orca EHP with reasonable mining fitting: ~250,000 post patch

That's 11,457 damage per Cataclyst, so you need 22 of them to kill the Orca. That means for a total cost of 214,928,274 ISK you can high-sec gank an Orca in 0.5 space.

I don't see this becoming a common thing.

so 250mil for killing 700mil worth ship? I call it fair game then.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#318 - 2016-11-15 14:09:16 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:
Raw Matters wrote:
Careby wrote:
As long as you fit it sensibly, it probably won't be ganked.

This.

I am not sure how you want to gank an Orca if the pilot has at least the basic skills for tanking. The live Orca has already ~200k EHP and with the patch it gets another boost. How is you plan to kill that in high-sec? Throw Maelstroms at it until there are so many Concord ships that the server crashes? You can't get it with suspect either, as mining drones do not react to loot stealing and besides: there is no loot to steal with a cargo hold that huge.

Now you can probably bump it away, but keep in mind that the drones have up to 60k range, plus another 24k for potential drone links. I'd say that someone who spends that much time bumping an Orca out of a belt really has serious problems. :D


Those suicide catalyst, can deal 600dps? cost few mil. Then concord reaction in 0.5 is 30sec? that gives 18k dps per catalyst, 12 should take current orca down.
Now add to that exploit part, that suiciders who have already -10ss, they move arround in pods, and there own alt orca launch catalyst for them in space, so that they can board them and have full time before concord reaction to shoot at your orca.
Now add to that fact, that goons are who will gain most from current rorqual changes, somewhere else someone counted how much ratting cariers they lost by last half year, 11, so it will be in there interest to cut down hsec supply, as they will oversupply market in no time with those numbers.


If the Orca has 400k EHP which isn't hard to do. It takes about 23 cats.

I mean if you are a large Corp that isn't a problem, but if you got that many people you might want to do something more lucrative like gank freighters.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#319 - 2016-11-15 19:06:10 UTC
Anne Sol wrote:

so 250mil for killing 700mil worth ship? I call it fair game then.


Now calculate the profit to be made on such a gank.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#320 - 2016-11-15 21:44:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anne Sol wrote:

so 250mil for killing 700mil worth ship? I call it fair game then.


Now calculate the profit to be made on such a gank.


Maybe if the Orca was using ORE drones.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server