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[November] Orca Changes

First post First post
Author
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#21 - 2016-10-04 19:04:13 UTC
Echo Mande wrote:
Please, pretty please, add ore compression as an Orca/Rorqual ability, even if this has to be enabled with a module and skill. Ore compression in the field would IMO be much more useful, and support the fleet much better, than a larger ore hold would. It would allow the Orca/Rorqual to tractor in cans, compress and store the contents and then allow a single hauler to be far more useful hauling compressed ore/ice to station. It would also keep the command pilot more involved and in the field. Not giving compression to the Porpoise would give the Orca/Rorqual an extra force multiplier bonus over the Porpoise.

On a related note, are the command ships' ore holds accessable to the fleet, like a fleet hangar?


Quote:
Enables Ore and Ice Compression


The industrial core turns on the ability to compress ore.It's pretty much always had this option.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

AgentMaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-10-04 19:17:40 UTC
All these numbers and calculations look nice, but i have a simple question: How fast will full hold one retriever under the new orca boost at max skills Question

Blessed is the man who has nothing to say and remain silent yet!!

Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#23 - 2016-10-04 19:19:00 UTC
Mining Drone II (Quote: The Mining Drone II will remain largely unchanged in November, as it represents the current baseline for drone mining) = 33m³ per 60s

Mining Drone Operations V: +25% yield
Mining Drone Spez V: +10% yield
Industrial Command Ship V: +50% yield
Orca Role Bonus: +100% yield
2x T2 Drone Rig (stackingpenalty ignored): +30% yield
1x T1 Drone Rig (stackingpenalty still ignored): +10% yield
Number of Mining Drones: 5 (until Guardian Orca released...)

33m³ x 1.25 x 1.10 x 1.5 x 2.0 x 1.3 x 1.1 x 5 = 973.29m³ per 60s

x 1.09 for Augmented Mining Drones = 1,060.89m³ per 60s

Still 30-40% below Quote: "Max Yield: ~1400m3 per minute + drone travel time"

Am I missing a skill / module / imp / drug / math?
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#24 - 2016-10-04 19:26:55 UTC
It looks great so far.
But can we please get ore compression on the orca?
And what about an visual update for the orca and the rorqual?

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Oradric Cube
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-10-04 19:47:48 UTC
According to http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Timers#Remote_assistance and my understanding of the remote repair mechanics the orca pilot would get a concord suspect flag (yellow blinky) if they perform remote repair on a fleet member that has been attacked by another player in hisec triggering concord criminal (red blinky).

Saying it another way: Player A is piloting an orca in hisec with Player B piloting a retriever when Player C arrives in a catalyst. None of them have any timers yet. Player C then attacks Player B triggering concord response and a concord criminal (red blinky) flag on Player C. Player B is taking damage (but not dead yet) and has a Capsuleer Log-Off Timer and I believe a Limited Engagement Timer with Player C. If Player A has remote repair modules fitted and activates them on Player B (requiring a safety setting of yellow) then I believe Player A will inherit the Capsuleer Log-Off Timer, the Limited Engagement Timer with Player C and I think Player A will also get a concord suspect timer (yellow blinky).

Am I correct in my understanding?

What about the new boost mechanism? How will it interact with the existing timer system? If in my example Player A did not use remote repair modules at all but instead hit Player B with a boost pulse/tick would Player A inherit the timers or not?
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#26 - 2016-10-04 19:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Samsara Toldya wrote:
Mining Drone II (Quote: The Mining Drone II will remain largely unchanged in November, as it represents the current baseline for drone mining) = 33m³ per 60s

Mining Drone Operations V: +25% yield
Mining Drone Spez V: +10% yield
Industrial Command Ship V: +50% yield
Orca Role Bonus: +100% yield
2x T2 Drone Rig (stackingpenalty ignored): +30% yield
1x T1 Drone Rig (stackingpenalty still ignored): +10% yield
Number of Mining Drones: 5 (until Guardian Orca released...)

33m³ x 1.25 x 1.10 x 1.5 x 2.0 x 1.3 x 1.1 x 5 = 973.29m³ per 60s

x 1.09 for Augmented Mining Drones = 1,060.89m³ per 60s

Still 30-40% below Quote: "Max Yield: ~1400m3 per minute + drone travel time"

Am I missing a skill / module / imp / drug / math?



You miscalc'd your rigs.
Each rig is a multiplicator on their own.
Edit: Oh, and you forgot Drone Interfacing. Which is anothert x1.5
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#27 - 2016-10-04 20:01:24 UTC
The tripling in size of the ore hold on this beast, along with 25% bonus to ore hold size thanks to Industrial Command Ships 5 — boosting total capacity to about 187,500m3 — more than makes up for lack of ore compression IMHO. Now I'll be able to vacuum my usual mining haul into the Orca in one go without having a miner switch to hauling. I'd love this update even if it wasn't for the improvements that make mining drones actually useful.

Though one thing still bothers me: "90% reduction to effective distance travelled for jump fatigue" indicates to me that mistakes have been made in designing certain game mechanics.
nezroy
Nice Clan
#28 - 2016-10-04 20:01:26 UTC
Oradric Cube wrote:
According to http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Timers#Remote_assistance and my understanding of the remote repair mechanics the orca pilot would get a concord suspect flag (yellow blinky) if they perform remote repair on a fleet member that has been attacked by another player in hisec triggering concord criminal (red blinky).


No. Neutral logi only gets a suspect flag if there is an LE on the target being repped. Being attacked in hisec does not give you an LE with the attacking pilot UNLESS YOU SHOOT BACK. If you do nothing, you will have no flags (other than logoff timer) and anyone can rep you safely.
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#29 - 2016-10-04 20:06:10 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
You miscalc'd your rigs.
Each rig is a multiplicator on their own.
Edit: Oh, and you forgot Drone Interfacing. Which is anothert x1.5


Have to take a closer look to rigs.
Drone Interfacing is in fact the skill I missed with huge impact.
Now I'm at 1,020.93m³ with T2 drones without rigs. Adding rigs and maybe harvester drones will give 1,400m³.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Oh wait... you are a Goon... Grrr Goons! :p
Goati
Doomheim
#30 - 2016-10-04 20:16:55 UTC
KrazyTaco wrote:
Has any thought been given to the implications for NPC corp miners in High Sec now being able to essentially use the Orca as a near invincible default mining platform instead of the traditional barge / exhumer?

Given that the Orca will remain around the same price and it can now mine just as well as a yield fit Mackinaw, receives an extra 33k ehp base, and has a huge ore hold, what will stop a proliferation of Orcas that can't be engaged with in any meaningful way than by all but the largest gank fleets in High Sec?


Orcas are very easy to bump. And I see they made the align even worse, by quite a lot. A few bumpers could knock any orcas out of the belt very quickly.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#31 - 2016-10-04 20:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Oradric Cube wrote:
According to http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Timers#Remote_assistance and my understanding of the remote repair mechanics the orca pilot would get a concord suspect flag (yellow blinky) if they perform remote repair on a fleet member that has been attacked by another player in hisec triggering concord criminal (red blinky).

Saying it another way: Player A is piloting an orca in hisec with Player B piloting a retriever when Player C arrives in a catalyst. None of them have any timers yet. Player C then attacks Player B triggering concord response and a concord criminal (red blinky) flag on Player C. Player B is taking damage (but not dead yet) and has a Capsuleer Log-Off Timer and I believe a Limited Engagement Timer with Player C. If Player A has remote repair modules fitted and activates them on Player B (requiring a safety setting of yellow) then I believe Player A will inherit the Capsuleer Log-Off Timer, the Limited Engagement Timer with Player C and I think Player A will also get a concord suspect timer (yellow blinky).

Am I correct in my understanding?

What about the new boost mechanism? How will it interact with the existing timer system? If in my example Player A did not use remote repair modules at all but instead hit Player B with a boost pulse/tick would Player A inherit the timers or not?

If this was the case ALOT of Anti-Ganker Logi would get a suspect flag at every gank they try to prevent...

In this instance, the only way the Orca Pilot gets a timer is if the Miner agrees to a dual with the ganker...which is why you see ALOT of ~elite pvpers~ only fight at Jita unlock with 5-6 neutral logi within instant docking range...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#32 - 2016-10-04 20:47:21 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:

If this was the case ALOT of Anti-Ganker Logi would get a suspect flag at every gank they try to prevent...

In this instance, the only way the Orca Pilot gets a timer is if the Miner agrees to a dual with the ganker...which is why you see ALOT of ~elite pvpers~ only fight at Jita unlock with 5-6 neutral logi within instant docking range...

Wrong.
If the Barge shoots back to defend themselves even if it's a criminal attack, the Orca pilot would then go suspect.
The only ways the Orca pilot doesn't go suspect is if both Orca & Barge are in the same corp and are at war (and not 100% sure on that not making the Orca suspect), or if the Barge never defends itself but just sits there. Last I tested even same alliance but different corp at war you still went suspect. Because it counted as repping a war target.

Darrien wrote:
Might be an idea to tune belt rat AI to attack drones ?

Belt AI 'can' attack drones since it's the same AI as missions, but they need to make the belt AI spawns tougher so elite spawns happen and more damage is done in general by belt spawns. Non elite frigates don't engage lights, only mediums if I recall the drone agro charts correctly.
Goati
Doomheim
#33 - 2016-10-04 20:54:22 UTC
Where can we get some info on the new ice harvesting drones? Need stats! Info given was only for yield on normal mining drones.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#34 - 2016-10-04 21:02:36 UTC
I, for one, welcome our new highsec PvP overlords!
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
#35 - 2016-10-04 21:02:45 UTC
I LOVE YOU CCP! MY BEAUTIFUL ORCA! AHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#36 - 2016-10-04 21:10:04 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
]

If the Barge shoots back to defend themselves even if it's a criminal attack, the Orca pilot would then go suspect.
The only ways the Orca pilot doesn't go suspect is if both Orca & Barge are in the same corp and are at war (and not 100% sure on that not making the Orca suspect), or if the Barge never defends itself but just sits there. Last I tested even same alliance but different corp at war you still went suspect. Because it counted as repping a war target.

Only if the Barge defends itself...otherwise I would've lost my Orca a LONG time ago...yes I'm including the fact that both Orca and Barge pilot are in different Corps. Otherwise any and all Anti-Ganker Logi used in repping a Freighter under a Gank would die almost instantly! (Just go play around the hotspots where Freighters go to die and watch...)
Selak Zorander
Mord-Sith
#37 - 2016-10-04 21:11:13 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Echo Mande wrote:
Please, pretty please, add ore compression as an Orca/Rorqual ability, even if this has to be enabled with a module and skill. Ore compression in the field would IMO be much more useful, and support the fleet much better, than a larger ore hold would. It would allow the Orca/Rorqual to tractor in cans, compress and store the contents and then allow a single hauler to be far more useful hauling compressed ore/ice to station. It would also keep the command pilot more involved and in the field. Not giving compression to the Porpoise would give the Orca/Rorqual an extra force multiplier bonus over the Porpoise.

On a related note, are the command ships' ore holds accessable to the fleet, like a fleet hangar?


Quote:
Enables Ore and Ice Compression


The industrial core turns on the ability to compress ore.It's pretty much always had this option.



he is referring to making it such that there is a version of the industrial core that can be used on the orca. currently only the rorqual can use it as far as i am aware.
Goati
Doomheim
#38 - 2016-10-04 21:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Goati
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.
Sullen Decimus
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#39 - 2016-10-04 21:24:12 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Awww nice buff, but I'm a bit sad that the SMA size remains the same. I like this assembled ship suitcase ability of the Orca. Makes for a very tiny mobile home, I'd have loved to see some thoughts given to that kind of nomadic gameplay.


Making the sma bigger would start to cut into the bowhead territory. Rather than doing that though I mentioned taking a look at the barge sizes and if you read the blog they are reducing the volume of the hulk/covetor by 25%. That should make those mobile ops a little easier :)

CSM XI Member

Twitter: Sullen_Decimus

Tweetfleet: @sullen_decimus

Sullen Decimus
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#40 - 2016-10-04 21:25:26 UTC
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.


I imagine they'll be taking a look at it if it ever gets to that point. For now though orcas now can be piloted by someone rather than just an alt sitting in a pos.

CSM XI Member

Twitter: Sullen_Decimus

Tweetfleet: @sullen_decimus