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Covert Jump Portal Generation - skill req/mechanics tweak.

Author
Decian Falx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-09-25 19:47:14 UTC
Background: One use of the Covert Jump Portal Generator module is helping newer players - in less skill intensive Stealth Bombers or Recon ships - participate in Black Ops content being undertaken by more experienced players with full jump drive and Black Ops skills. This module requires Astrometrics V to use.

Astrometrics V is a scanning skill and not necessarily useful for a combat-focused BLOPs pilot barring some unrelated reason for having it. Level 5 is an ~12 day train. There are an enormous array of combat skills that BLOPs pilots I know would rather spend 12 days training. (FWIW: my corp currently tops zkill for most BLOPs kills this week, so I know a few.)

This means fewer jump portal generator modules -> less [new player]+[experienced player] engagement -> net negative for new player retention.

Primary Proposal: Remove Astrometrics V requirement from Covert Jump Portal Generation - OR - lower it to Astrometrics IV, which is a much quicker train.

Secondary proposal:

A second mechanic that disincentives more experienced players from jump portal generating is that it often causes them to miss the same content they bridge others to. Yes, some charitable people already have alts for this. Training an alt to handle this duty should be quicker/easier in order to promote new player retention through participation.

Possible solutions:
- Allow Blockade Runners to use the module (use jump fuel from the main cargo bay). The BR functions in a purely support role (fuel truck + bridger) so that a combat trained pilot doesn't miss any combat opportunities, and a non-combat focused alt can handle this duty.
- Detach the portal from the BLOPs, allowing the BLOPs to jump?
Problems: 1. The BLOPs is no longer held committed while the portal is up. 2. How would this work with fuel?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#2 - 2016-09-25 21:29:20 UTC
I am sure that getting dropped on via a cyno is at first an impressively intimidating experience, but after the third or forth time, you get a bit irritated by it. Getting dropped on has nothing to do with improving new player retention.
If you really talk about "retention by participation", you should talk about getting more hunters up and running around, so that not the always same people look for targets while the daft masses sit on the bridger and complain about wasted time.

Astrometrics V is a time sink skill at first glance; however, makes a lot of sense for a portal generator operator because they need to calculated and verify coordinates of a cyno, the range and fuel. These are all things that you learn through your training of Astrometrics V. Thus, if you remove that skill from the requirements, a portal such a pilot opens should result in failed bridges, random bridge end points for fleet individuals, among other drawbacks. Only if you train Astrometrics V, you can guarantee a safe and reliable bridge.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2016-09-25 21:42:23 UTC
Decian Falx wrote:

This means fewer jump portal generator modules -> less [new player]+[experienced player] engagement -> net negative for new player retention.

As a newbro I too appreciated getting my Hurricane hotdropped. The aeons and thannies landing alongside were probably [experienced players] guiding their [new player] brethren throughout this "engagement", hm?

10/10 topkek Lol
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2016-09-25 22:03:09 UTC
12 days training is absolutely nothing. New players need to learn that the good stuff takes a while to train for.

After that 12 day period, they'll finally have the courage to train for Advanced Weapon Upgrade V
Decian Falx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-09-25 22:58:10 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
New players need to learn that the good stuff takes a while to train for.



Except it isn't the new players who have to spend the 12 days - they gain the benefits of it being trained by someone else. It's the player with jump drive skills and battleship 5 who has to spend the 12 days to help the new players. Unfortunately for the newbies, cap pilots have better things to train - Carrier V, Fighters V, Capital Hybrid Turrets V, Dreadnought V, etc... ROI = 0 for the person training it and that's why I'm arguing it should be changed.
Decian Falx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-09-25 23:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Decian Falx
Rivr Luzade wrote:
If you really talk about "retention by participation", you should talk about getting more hunters up and running around, so that not the always same people look for targets while the daft masses sit on the bridger and complain about wasted time.


Absolutely, but you have to walk before you can run. You don't build or use an HK until you know you hotdropping is something you like to do. Bridging allows you to find that out without a lot of skill investment.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2016-09-25 23:46:20 UTC
what are you talking about we make our new players hunters before they ever even have the cov ops frig skill.



as for the idea -1 the skill is a time sink and the bridge needs to stay on the blops
Decian Falx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-09-26 00:55:18 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
what are you talking about we make our new players hunters before they ever even have the cov ops frig skill.



But back to the topic at hand: the ones with the cov ops skill and wanting to be part of the drop fleet. How often do they end up sitting in station during a drop because no one is both willing and able to bridge them? I've seen this happen numerous times.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9 - 2016-09-26 01:00:02 UTC
I are very sorry but even at age 10 I cannot condone hotdrop shenanigans under a mask of "player retention".


You do know exactly what it is, a lot of wasted time and resources to hotdrop one boat with 3000 blackops and bombers and call that pvp.
Shame on you! Now back in the corner and feel bad!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Decian Falx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-09-26 01:43:57 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
I are very sorry but even at age 10 I cannot condone hotdrop shenanigans under a mask of "player retention".


You do know exactly what it is, a lot of wasted time and resources to hotdrop one boat with 3000 blackops and bombers and call that pvp.
Shame on you! Now back in the corner and feel bad!


Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2016-09-26 02:17:50 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
I are very sorry but even at age 10 I cannot condone hotdrop shenanigans under a mask of "player retention".


You do know exactly what it is, a lot of wasted time and resources to hotdrop one boat with 3000 blackops and bombers and call that pvp.
Shame on you! Now back in the corner and feel bad!



idk we have used blops to get a lot of new players into pvp. saying hotdrops are not good for retention is the same as saying HS ganking is not good for retention
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#12 - 2016-09-26 02:22:06 UTC
Astrometrics V isn't really the issue i see, Cyno V is that takes substantially longer to train than astro does, and newer players with covert cyno means more hunters like someone else said with less waiting time on the pig.

Besides Covert Cynos aren't even T2 and yet you still need it at 5, even if it is a balance factor

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2016-09-26 02:46:28 UTC
then its a good thing you don't need to use a cov cyno
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#14 - 2016-09-26 04:16:08 UTC
I wished they'd bring back the deep space probes that needed the skill 5'd personally. Made the skill have a double dip effect really and useful when not in blops. Tend to accept more PITA skills when they give some other benefit.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#15 - 2016-09-26 13:32:51 UTC
Decian Falx wrote:
....Don't hate the player, hate the game.


I don't hate you, silly.

Just teaching newbies how to blobb to "win" is not good gameplay. Teaching them to hold their ground on their own is a much better skill to teach.

Think about it, you have one of your newbies being ganked by someone and he screams on comms for help. Any support is 6 jumps away.
By the time you may or may not form a thought to help him, he is toast, sitting back in the same station as you and yelling / crying that "there was nothing he could do...".

And admit it, you have heard this before and you have been in that very same situation before.

Now imagine you would have taught your newbie how to separate a small gang(k) by gate aggression or move around in system from bookmark to bookmark until you manage to get there and even shoot his very own tackler on his own.

That adrenaline rush you feel when you "created" your first killmail by yourself is something you cannot teach or feel in any other world.

Ask yourself, what will keep your newbies longer in the game? Blood thirst or a giggle.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

SurrenderMonkey
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-09-26 14:33:18 UTC
Decian Falx wrote:


This means fewer jump portal generator modules -> less [new player]+[experienced player] engagement -> net negative for new player retention.


I like how, no matter how insignificant or niche a particular suggestion is, every OP always seems to think it plays a vital role in new player retention. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#17 - 2016-09-26 15:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Decian Falx wrote:


This means fewer jump portal generator modules -> less [new player]+[experienced player] engagement -> net negative for new player retention.


I like how, no matter how insignificant or niche a particular suggestion is, every OP always seems to think it plays a vital role in new player retention. Roll


The world currently runs on spin and buzz word bingo.... didn't you get the memo?


But yeah, this boils down to I can't possible wait 12 days for anything (add obligatory rant about current parenting practices), so change this to IV (and do it now!)
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#18 - 2016-09-26 15:14:56 UTC
Decian Falx wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
New players need to learn that the good stuff takes a while to train for.



Except it isn't the new players who have to spend the 12 days - they gain the benefits of it being trained by someone else. It's the player with jump drive skills and battleship 5 who has to spend the 12 days to help the new players. Unfortunately for the newbies, cap pilots have better things to train - Carrier V, Fighters V, Capital Hybrid Turrets V, Dreadnought V, etc... ROI = 0 for the person training it and that's why I'm arguing it should be changed.



They don't have 'better' things to train if they want to open a covert jump portal to keep their newbs in corp!

You're kind of sending mixed signals here. What I'm hearing is that you and other capital pilots don't care about new players (better things to train and all) but CCP should. Consider giving a little back to the game and it's future and spending the training time on the level V skill.... you know.... for the children.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-09-26 15:35:11 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
12 days training is absolutely nothing. New players need to learn that the good stuff takes a while to train for.

After that 12 day period, they'll finally have the courage to train for Advanced Weapon Upgrade V


Come talk to me when you've trained carrier 5.
For the fourth time.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#20 - 2016-09-26 18:13:19 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Decian Falx wrote:


This means fewer jump portal generator modules -> less [new player]+[experienced player] engagement -> net negative for new player retention.


I like how, no matter how insignificant or niche a particular suggestion is, every OP always seems to think it plays a vital role in new player retention. Roll



Basically. IN this case our newer play may dig ninjya ops which is cool. And is in a home where they aren't run as much. this has a simple solution. Find a home that does.

When out in 0.0 I was in a few homes. Some do this, some do that, some don't do the other thing so much. If the last one a major sticking point, find a home that does it if an interest. Welcome to eve....sometimes you have to see a few corps/alliances before you settle down. Its not a marriage lol, you don't have to be in crew X for life. Or present ideas in the proper channels in corp to see if that can change.

Its not this train that has blops based ninjya ops not running. On average a blops pilot is also a cap pilot. this train...mild in comparison to the long rabbit hole you go down for a proper cap. Came back after a long break, the new t2, the new fighters, I didn't ship 5 my stuff.....yeah, I have nice long train coming up real soon.
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