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927 Combat Roam, Ships & Ordnance Supplied!
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Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#81 - 2016-09-23 20:47:36 UTC
Cain Aloga wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
You're not seriously planning on trying to attack the Emperess are you? Because that would be just about the most ******** move you could make at this point. The current choice of ruler is just about the best thing for the Minmatar as it has caused yet another group to splinter away from the theology council. We should be subtly encouraging that.



I feel that this is a topic that merits further discussion.

Practically, I agree with you that the Empress to be is perhaps the best best choice in when speaking in terms of the relationship with the Tribes.

However if this were a theoretical argument, one could argue that her success gives credence and legitimacy to the Amarr Empire's most basic tenant of Foreign Policy; namely the Reclamation. Here we have a an empress that is from a people other than the True Amarr. Her people were reclaimed, and her coronation is a statement that says their religion, their system works. that the Reclamation works. With the possibility of one day, perhaps far in the future, a Brutor could be crowned Emperor, the defeat of that idea and of the Empire becomes that much harder.

Following this train of thought, should we not be subtly be encouraging this purity of the thrown movement instead?

Play both sides. As long as the Empire is focused on it's own internal problems they won't be projecting as much power and influence, which is good for the Republic.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#82 - 2016-09-23 21:33:54 UTC
Cain Aloga wrote:
However if this were a theoretical argument, one could argue that her success gives credence and legitimacy to the Amarr Empire's most basic tenant of Foreign Policy; namely the Reclamation. Here we have a an empress that is from a people other than the True Amarr. Her people were reclaimed, and her coronation is a statement that says their religion, their system works. that the Reclamation works.


From conversations I've had with a few Amarrians (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the Udorians ceased to exist as a meaningful distinction from 'True Amarr' a very, very long time ago. This, and the fact that other than perhaps the uppermost echelons of the Heir families, most 'True Amarr' have some Udorian ancestry, way back when, means the entire conceit of the 'Purity of the Throne' faction is fatally flawed. The new Empress will be no more impure than anyone else. The Purity of the Throne cabal holds up a standard even they, and those they would put upon the throne (and who knows how unified they are), cannot meet.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#83 - 2016-09-23 21:59:11 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Cain Aloga wrote:
However if this were a theoretical argument, one could argue that her success gives credence and legitimacy to the Amarr Empire's most basic tenant of Foreign Policy; namely the Reclamation. Here we have a an empress that is from a people other than the True Amarr. Her people were reclaimed, and her coronation is a statement that says their religion, their system works. that the Reclamation works.


From conversations I've had with a few Amarrians (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the Udorians ceased to exist as a meaningful distinction from 'True Amarr' a very, very long time ago. This, and the fact that other than perhaps the uppermost echelons of the Heir families, most 'True Amarr' have some Udorian ancestry, way back when, means the entire conceit of the 'Purity of the Throne' faction is fatally flawed. The new Empress will be no more impure than anyone else. The Purity of the Throne cabal holds up a standard even they, and those they would put upon the throne (and who knows how unified they are), cannot meet.

What? Fanaticism AND hypocrisy? Arrendis. I don't believe you.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#84 - 2016-09-23 22:32:39 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Cain Aloga wrote:
However if this were a theoretical argument, one could argue that her success gives credence and legitimacy to the Amarr Empire's most basic tenant of Foreign Policy; namely the Reclamation. Here we have a an empress that is from a people other than the True Amarr. Her people were reclaimed, and her coronation is a statement that says their religion, their system works. that the Reclamation works.


From conversations I've had with a few Amarrians (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the Udorians ceased to exist as a meaningful distinction from 'True Amarr' a very, very long time ago. This, and the fact that other than perhaps the uppermost echelons of the Heir families, most 'True Amarr' have some Udorian ancestry, way back when, means the entire conceit of the 'Purity of the Throne' faction is fatally flawed. The new Empress will be no more impure than anyone else. The Purity of the Throne cabal holds up a standard even they, and those they would put upon the throne (and who knows how unified they are), cannot meet.

What? Fanaticism AND hypocrisy? Arrendis. I don't believe you.

One or the other. You can't have both.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#85 - 2016-09-23 22:41:46 UTC
Alistair Schneider wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
I kinda wish the khanid won. Then again that's only due to the impact it would have had on the empire...



I don't think you want the Empire to have fully reactivated and re-mobilized its navy. If Khanid had taken the throne by some fit of corrupt divine intervention, not only would millions of unwilling naval vessels in the Kingdom be forced to rise against its brothers and sisters (because, to be honest, if Khanid had taken the throne, it's without reason of a doubt that I believe a rebellion of notable significance would occur).

What would happen then?

Would you celebrate and laud as your economic partner, the Federation, has a massive dip in its economical success due to the enormous turmoil of this supposed civil war? Even worse, if Khanid had successfully retained the throne, do you think he would really be the "best case?" Khanid II, who is in support of drastic action against Minmatar terrorism?

It's... rather short sighted of you to suggest something like this, really! And a touch horrid, too.


I'd rather they not do that, ya your right on that regard. I don't really understand how it would be some "corrupt divine intervention" honestly, your people chose a rather barbaric method of showing your gods favor, how is it corrupt if outside factors (the possible emperor/empress selecting superior pilots) are exactly what proves it? Whether I would celebrate or whatever the civil war of those who have the bravado to say they are the chosen people to lead the cluster into some light, no I wouldnt celebrate their deaths per say but I'll certainly be laughing at your peoples lack of faith. I don't honestly understand how a civil war between factions in one of our shared enemy would drastically effect the federation. I will say I'm not an economist, I'm a combat pilot and a rather p**s poor fleet commander. I strongly doubt the Khanid navy could beat the Amarr navy proper.

Your religion has committed worse atrocities than a simple civil war could possibly achieve, watching a crisis of faith is more horrid than actively killing your peers? Short sighted maybe...
Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#86 - 2016-09-23 23:40:08 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Alistair Schneider wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
I kinda wish the khanid won. Then again that's only due to the impact it would have had on the empire...



I don't think you want the Empire to have fully reactivated and re-mobilized its navy. If Khanid had taken the throne by some fit of corrupt divine intervention, not only would millions of unwilling naval vessels in the Kingdom be forced to rise against its brothers and sisters (because, to be honest, if Khanid had taken the throne, it's without reason of a doubt that I believe a rebellion of notable significance would occur).

What would happen then?

Would you celebrate and laud as your economic partner, the Federation, has a massive dip in its economical success due to the enormous turmoil of this supposed civil war? Even worse, if Khanid had successfully retained the throne, do you think he would really be the "best case?" Khanid II, who is in support of drastic action against Minmatar terrorism?

It's... rather short sighted of you to suggest something like this, really! And a touch horrid, too.


I'd rather they not do that, ya your right on that regard. I don't really understand how it would be some "corrupt divine intervention" honestly, your people chose a rather barbaric method of showing your gods favor, how is it corrupt if outside factors (the possible emperor/empress selecting superior pilots) are exactly what proves it? Whether I would celebrate or whatever the civil war of those who have the bravado to say they are the chosen people to lead the cluster into some light, no I wouldnt celebrate their deaths per say but I'll certainly be laughing at your peoples lack of faith. I don't honestly understand how a civil war between factions in one of our shared enemy would drastically effect the federation. I will say I'm not an economist, I'm a combat pilot and a rather p**s poor fleet commander. I strongly doubt the Khanid navy could beat the Amarr navy proper.

Your religion has committed worse atrocities than a simple civil war could possibly achieve, watching a crisis of faith is more horrid than actively killing your peers? Short sighted maybe...

How is outright cheating prevented how is an hier prevented from fitting higher level modules on the ships used
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#87 - 2016-09-23 23:58:50 UTC
Inspections, and an agreed upon limit on module types between the parties I'd imagine. I believe they could ban ships from rounds but don't quote me on that.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#88 - 2016-09-24 00:45:59 UTC
"Kill the Amarr!"
"No, let the Amarr kill each other!"
"No, kill the Amarr while they're killing each other!"

How about you shut up or we kill you?

Honestly, just get on with it already. If you're going to make a case for it, just do it already so we can finish off your pathetic two-region refugee camp you call a civilization. If you don't want that, shut it and let us sort our own problems, as I've tried to tell you fedo-eating apes ever since I first came into contact with you "freedom-fighter" types.

You will not defeat the Empire with violence. You will only anger the Empire with violence. The Minmatar in the Empire will stay enslaved until the Empire no longer wants them enslaved. The more violent you are, the more the Empire will want them and the Minmatar in the Republic and Thukker Tribe in chains and safely put away in miserable asteroid mines and agricultural worlds to rot away until they are forgotten.

If you want to help your people, prove that you are not a threat. Better yet, prove that you can be decent and that maybe your brethren still enslaved deserve to be treated better. And don't give me the same crybaby story "B-but the Amarr are too mean to let us go!" Bullskink ****. My people were enslaved. My people worked hard. My people were freed. A Ni-Kunni bloodline has now been adopted into one of the highest families of the Empire, and many of us are working our way higher into Imperial society. You do not get to use that excuse. Your inability to figure out a way out of slavery besides "I can kill my way out" is your own fault.

The only way to change the Empire is from within it. The only way to change the Empire from the outside is to destroy it. Despite what you drooling barbarians think, there are enough good people in the Empire to not warrant that kind of change, and I and billions of those good people will fight you to the last to keep your rage-fueled dreams of blood and bullets come true. The Minmatar will one day be free; I dream of that day as well. But I am not going to let you burn down my home so you can walk them to freedom over the bodies of my children.

Now bring your stupid fleet, I look forward to turning it into roasted trash. Not that it won't be trash to begin with.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#89 - 2016-09-24 02:06:52 UTC
Dawwww, someone woke up grumpy today.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#90 - 2016-09-24 02:13:55 UTC
You can only threaten a man in front of his family for so long until he loses his temper. If you don't think you need to fear Aldrith Shutaq's temper, you obviously haven't seen his combat record.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#91 - 2016-09-24 02:35:22 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
"Kill the Amarr!"
"No, let the Amarr kill each other!"
"No, kill the Amarr while they're killing each other!"

How about you shut up or we kill you?

If you could have, you would have done it by now. The Amarr are indeed strong, but not as strong as you like to boast.

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:

If you want to help your people, prove that you are not a threat. Better yet, prove that you can be decent and that maybe your brethren still enslaved deserve to be treated better. And don't give me the same crybaby story "B-but the Amarr are too mean to let us go!" Bullskink ****. My people were enslaved. My people worked hard. My people were freed. A Ni-Kunni bloodline has now been adopted into one of the highest families of the Empire, and many of us are working our way higher into Imperial society. You do not get to use that excuse. Your inability to figure out a way out of slavery besides "I can kill my way out" is your own fault.
TL;DR: you can't beat us, resistance is futile.

You seem to be under the misguided impression that we are interested in joining your little book club and worshiping your invisible man in the sky just to get you to leave us alone. We are not. I for one would prefer to simply be left to our own devices. But I'm not going to get that, am I?

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
The only way to change the Empire is from within it. The only way to change the Empire from the outside is to destroy it. Despite what you drooling barbarians think, there are enough good people in the Empire to not warrant that kind of change, and I and billions of those good people will fight you to the last to keep your rage-fueled dreams of blood and bullets come true. The Minmatar will one day be free; I dream of that day as well. But I am not going to let you burn down my home so you can walk them to freedom over the bodies of my children.
We have no interest in becoming part of the Empire to affect change from within. And despite what you arrogant sociopaths think, we as a people have no interest in destroying the Amarr. We know what happens when you drag people over the corpses of children. We watched your raiding party's do it frequently, so let's not sit here and pretend either one of our peoples are innocent in this.

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Now bring your stupid fleet, I look forward to turning it into roasted trash. Not that it won't be trash to begin with.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with minmatar ship design.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#92 - 2016-09-24 02:46:55 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You can only threaten a man in front of his family for so long until he loses his temper. If you don't think you need to fear Aldrith Shutaq's temper, you obviously haven't seen his combat record.

Only one doing any threatening here was Ronin. And that's like being threatened by Nauplius, amusing at the best annoying at the worst.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#93 - 2016-09-24 02:56:30 UTC
As a former corporate lawyer, I've got a lot of local ordinances that can be purchased in case you folks happen to run out of your own. I even have some really obscure Amarrian theological ones, but those are extra.

@veikusenpai

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#94 - 2016-09-24 03:24:32 UTC
Khumaaks? How many ya got? I keep losing mine in fireballs that I ran out a long time ago...
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#95 - 2016-09-24 03:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Two parts cognac, one part sweet vermouth, shaken with an egg yolk and a teaspoon of powdered sugar. Serve into a cocktail glass with a zest of lemon and some mint leaves.

The perfect Khumaak to break your skull with.

@veikusenpai

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#96 - 2016-09-24 06:59:59 UTC
Well that's a new one, don't get me wrong I can't wait to try it. Thanks!
Alistair Schneider
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2016-09-24 07:21:16 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:


I'd rather they not do that, ya your right on that regard. I don't really understand how it would be some "corrupt divine intervention" honestly, your people chose a rather barbaric method of showing your gods favor, how is it corrupt if outside factors (the possible emperor/empress selecting superior pilots) are exactly what proves it? Whether I would celebrate or whatever the civil war of those who have the bravado to say they are the chosen people to lead the cluster into some light, no I wouldnt celebrate their deaths per say but I'll certainly be laughing at your peoples lack of faith. I don't honestly understand how a civil war between factions in one of our shared enemy would drastically effect the federation. I will say I'm not an economist, I'm a combat pilot and a rather p**s poor fleet commander. I strongly doubt the Khanid navy could beat the Amarr navy proper.

Your religion has committed worse atrocities than a simple civil war could possibly achieve, watching a crisis of faith is more horrid than actively killing your peers? Short sighted maybe...


Avoiding many glaring flaws in your arguments, I'll try to keep my thoughts concise for the sake of lessening the burden for anyone having to read the IGS today:

The Empire is the largest and militaristically most powerful of the nations provided today. If there were a civil war between their Navy and an additional Navy of comparable power, the economy would become wartime. The Empire has incredible amounts of trade with the Federation. In fact, the Federation is a magnificent trade hub for most, if not all, of the Empires. A massive economy crippled would be, understandably, poor for the recipients on the other trading end.

The succession trials are anything but "barbaric," you know! They've become very organized, very sterile, and trials by combat have been engrained in cultures throughout the Cluster for... Well, millenia! Organizing and legalizing and making it a spectacle has no bearing on this. In fact, I would argue it lessens what you could ever perceive as "barbaric."

And... Please, just because the Federation and the Empire differ on major ideologies doesn't make them enemies. Diplomatically it's a strained relationship, but I would argue that currently, only the Matari are actively nurturing the enemy mindset.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#98 - 2016-09-24 07:26:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Deitra Vess wrote:
Well that's a new one, don't get me wrong I can't wait to try it. Thanks!



Although I will say drinking a Khumaak is more for the morning after you went drinking, find a dead body in your hotel bathroom, and need to try and remember just exactly what you did last night while the forensic cleaning crew you called is on the way so you don't have to explain to the front desk something you have no recollection of.

(That was a joke).

@veikusenpai

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Alistair Schneider
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2016-09-24 07:27:04 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
You seem to be under the misguided impression that we are interested in joining your little book club and worshiping your invisible man in the sky just to get you to leave us alone.


Sorry for the double post, but I also don't understand this argument. I've seen it a lot! Reading the IGS and my personal work out and about I often hear Minmatar criticize the Amarr Faith as some gobbledygook, but as far as I've come to understand, a large amount of the Matari practice spiritualism and shamanism and natural spiritual deities and, from what I can tell, magic tattoos.

I don't understand how you can scoff at both at the same time! I thought, since you're of the tribes, you'd at least not berate your own peoples' beliefs by criticising faith in general!
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#100 - 2016-09-24 08:09:38 UTC
Alistair Schneider wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
You seem to be under the misguided impression that we are interested in joining your little book club and worshiping your invisible man in the sky just to get you to leave us alone.


Sorry for the double post, but I also don't understand this argument. I've seen it a lot! Reading the IGS and my personal work out and about I often hear Minmatar criticize the Amarr Faith as some gobbledygook, but as far as I've come to understand, a large amount of the Matari practice spiritualism and shamanism and natural spiritual deities and, from what I can tell, magic tattoos.

I don't understand how you can scoff at both at the same time! I thought, since you're of the tribes, you'd at least not berate your own peoples' beliefs by criticising faith in general!

I don't recall being critical of faith in general. Just the ones that enforce the idea that everyone not of that faith is a sub-human piece of trash and needs to be enslaved or killed. Our spiritualism is for the betterment of ourselves, Amarrian religion tells them that by, ruining the lives of other people, they are actually helping them.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.