Intergalactic Summit

So that's a 'yes' on you being an utter and complete moron, is it?

I already answered all your questions, but let's reiterate: What "dps" you need to alpha a Destroyer is an utterly stupid and moronic question that makes no sense. The "damage per second" is irrelevant in an alpha strike. What you need to know is the Volley Damage, and even that becomes a nonsense question because you can fit the Dragoon for different things, changing the amount of damage it can take before dying.

More importantly, consider something that should be at the forefront of your thoughts when theorycrafting combat scenarios: Application of damage. Guess what, your little alpha swarm isn't applying **** all if they can't get within range and stay there. Hence why we've been repeatedly pointing out kiting as the deathknell of this utterly idiotic concept. Something that becomes even more difficult to deal with when you take into account the sheer difference in navigation skills, fits, implants and command bursts between alphas and omegas. So here your Volley Damage will be roughly zero, which is insufficient to 'alpha strike' anything.

As for the Dragoon, it's certainly not much more powerful than most other Destroyers. It has some advantages in this particular situation however, due to its very high Application with Drones, at ranges far exceeding anything an 'alpha swarm' can counter. It's also capable of carrying three full flights of them, each having significantly more damage, health and speed than normal thanks to the hull bonuses.

Why it's not used in larger numbers by "capsuleer alliances" is because you use different tools for different purposes. Other ships are better suited to 'blob' style fleets, and "capsuleer alliances" rarely get to dictate enemy ship sizes with different plexes and so on. PIE/Daphiti however, can do exactly that thanks to the nature of the Pendulum War and its battlefields.

This makes, in this particular scenario, the Dragoon a very suitable ship for this purpose. It even renders it far less vulnerable to electronic warfare shenanigans, and will in very short order be capable of stringing along an 'alpha swarm' until it is little more than a conga line of wrecks waiting to happen.

That you even thought that its lack of use among 'gank pilots' was somehow relevant seems to prove the initial point. You are genuinely and verifiable a moron of the highest order. A true testament to the failure of New Eden's educational facilities and a very strong argument for late-term abortions to be extended well into the teenage years of the fetus. Please biomass. It is the one thing you can do that'll measurably improve the state of the cluster.

Silly me I did not know Dragoons were impervious to tackle and webs which would otherwise counter their ability to stay at distance unreachable by alpha pilots.

Keep in mind we are talking about one pilot who said she looked forward to encountering "swarms " of alpha piloted ships, not running away from them.

As far as the oh so wise that are agreeing with you they are not addressing the actual specifics of the conversation but have invented alternative scenarios in their own minds. That way they can always be right even when they are dead damn wrong! We are all familiar with the "Arrendis method" on the forums., these are just less eloquent more rudimentary versions thereof.

Fiction is fun but a swarm of alpha cruisers with tackle and web doing at minimum 450 effective hit points of damage per volley or even half that with significant enough numbers, aka a swarm, will destroy the Dragoon and all it's flights of drones in short order. No matter how you slice it pod express ride home for the Dragoon pilot.

Math might not be popular but it's always correct.

Oh, gods and spirits, pilot.

Webs and scrams have a (usually very limited) maximum range. The point of a kite is that it stays out of reach. Either it starts out holding the field (assuming inside a plex) and therefore chooses its starting range (this is a tactic I'd recommend for a solo destroyer), warps into an open field at long range and then maneuvers closer or baits hostiles towards it, or (risky! Probably not the thing to do with a lone destroyer) just drops into the middle of the swarm and then powers outward at multiple kmps before anybody can grab it.

These aren't new or theoretical tactics, pilot. They're commonplace. We've probably all both used and faced enemies using them, repeatedly. Kites represent a good third to a half of the solo hostiles roaming the warzone. They're not impossible to kill at all. Just, numbers isn't the key; kite fits and tactics tend to get deployed specifically as a response to numbers.

They're not a hard counter, but they are a counter. A lot of my proudest moments from my time with PY-RE involved taking kite gangs against vastly numerically-superior enemies.

It's a thing.

So-- your swarm can absolutely get into a small plex as long as it doesn't "upship" to cruisers. If it does upship to cruisers, it's naturally sacrificing its ability to enter about half the tactical sites in the warzone.

Maybe go fight a round or sixty in the WZ, then we can discuss this?

Why not discuss her initial statement? Because you can't win that point? That is why they are happy to agree with a kiss ass.

It is only correct when you are considering all variables, which you are not.

What is the speed of the ships involved? Do they all have the same speed, or does each ship have a different speed? What position are the ships starting from? How quickly are they able to acquire a lock on their target? How fast is their align time and warp speed? What is their maximum range? How many celestials are in system, and what is the distance between them? These, and more, are all questions that go through a combat pilot's mind when engaging an enemy.

For argument's sake, let's say there are no plexes.

There is more to combat than raw numbers. There is experience, wisdom, discipline. You speak of tackle. Can that tackle catch the kiter? Let us say the numbers are in the tackle's favor. He has the speed. He is able to get close to the kiter, web and scram him. But how fast is his fleet? How soon can they come and back him up? Did this tackle have the discipline to avoid being drawn too far away from his fleet? How quickly can the kiter destroy the tackle and return to pulling range? Does his fleet know to destroy their fallen comrade's wreck so that the kiter cannot use it as a warp anchor later in the fight?

Say the tackle is smart. That's asking a lot, as the larger the fleet the less intelligent the individual pilots tend to be. Doubly so with an alpha fleet. But let's say he is. He knows to stay near his fleet, not get drawn out by the kiter. The kiter, in turn, knows not to get too close. So instead he simply trails the fleet at distance, following them from warp to warp. Waiting, waiting until someone slips up, and is too slow with his warp alignment. The kiter pounces on the victim while the rest of the fleet is warping away, destroying him before they can return. Then he returns to his following and his waiting, stalking the fleet until they screw up again. Maybe they start to chase him now, viewing him as a threat. He warps off from celestial to celestial, hoping the enemy fleet is warping in at different times and different ranges so that he can grab another isolated opponent.

This is how kiting ships work. Single solo kiting ships routinely engage and take chunks out of swarms of less experienced pilots. And for most of the last decade that has been omega versus omega, not even versus alphas who are considerably easier targets. Many of these pilots film it and post it to video sharing sites. You should try watching some of their footage. It's quite illuminating.

You say people are inventing alternative scenarios... yet variable scenarios are precisely what makes up fights. Setting up an advantageous battlefield is the single most important skill for a kiter. He works to manipulate and harness the environment to negate the enemy's strengths and maximize his own. You have no combat experience, and no understanding of how much actually goes into these fights. Everyone speaking to you now has actually fought in numerable encounters, both as part of swarms and against them. The only one speaking fiction is you, because you are talking about things of which you have never actually experienced for yourself. Except, perhaps, when fighting baseliner ships where you are the one against the swarm.

Having reviewed the public record of the losses you have suffered while piloting a Dragoon since only the beginning of this year it is quite clear that both your fit and your skill level are somewhat over rated by your admirers here on IGS. The hard wire implants you lost are impressive. From this public record fitting a swarm of ships to counter your skill set would not be difficult at all. I honestly did not expect to see so many Dragoon losses from you since the beginning of the year, maybe you are just in a slump. That can happen to even the best of pilots.

Perhaps when you've done more than lose one fight and staying docked the rest of your career, you might be able to judge killboards with a clearer view. Hers is a damn sight better than yours, and is quite representative of those actually going out and fighting on a regular basis.

As for scenarios where the 'swarm' prevails, you have already been provided with them. Requires the target to stay immobile for long enough that they're caught. This is an unlikely scenario as you've already been told.

Oh it's quite easy. Indeed, the swarm has a lot going for it. And the example of the dragoon is a very poor one for people to be making as it makes for a less-than-stellar kiting ship both due to its base speed and drone usage (its offensive assets are very vulnerable to being destroyed, even if the ship itself remains safe). But the argument hasn't been about whether the swarm can win. Frankly everyone here knows that more numbers means a greater threat. But the argument thus far has been that the solo omega pilot does not stand a chance at all, which is a very erroneous claim.

So, when does the swarm prevail? It prevails when it has a skilled FC who is able to get his fleet to observe proper discipline (everyone follows orders, no one allows themselves to get drawn out and isolated, the fleet never warps unless everyone is already aligned, etc), it prevails when it has logistics, it prevails when it has ewar, it prevails when its range is superior to the kiter, it prevails when its tackle is able to lock down the enemy without getting destroyed in turn (generally necessitating a tackle that sacrifices its DPS for survivability), it prevails when it can bait the solo pilot (sending one tanked scout into the system to lure out a fight, then jumping in the rest of the fleet once a fight has been engaged). It doesn't need all of these things (except proper discipline), but the more of them it has the more the advantage falls on their side.

People in this thread have used plexes as an example of benefiting themselves over the enemy fleet, but frankly the plex benefits the swarm. Either the swarm enters the plex first and it is almost-certain suicide for the solo pilot to follow (it is possible for a very fast frigate, especially against alpha pilots who have slower lock times, but the chances for that are low), or the swarm enters the solo pilot's plex en masse and simply forces him out of it by maintaining proper fleet discipline. Regardless of which, the fleet is the one that gets to run down the timer and emerge with the strategic victory. A solo pilot can engage a larger enemy fleet and make off with kills, but what a solo pilot absolutely cannot do is hold a system against an enemy fleet.

The point, ultimately, is that victory comes down to tactics and discipline, not numbers. It is much harder to keep a large group of pilots acting cohesively, but if successfully done then there is rarely anything the solo pilot can do to them.



There is no distortion, Mr. Ronin. Poor discipline and piloting are extraordinarily common in most fleets. A disciplined, cohesive fleet is a rare thing because the more individual people present the more difficult it is to keep them all on the same track. And as we are talking about alpha fleets, I am certainly envisioning fleets filled with green pilots who may be participating in only their very first combat encounter. Versus an omega pilot, who is presumably very experienced as it usually takes a very experienced pilot to actually risk engaging a fleet significantly more numerous than himself.


Ultimately though, when you put aside all theory crafting the most likely scenario is that neither side dies, because the solo pilot isn't able to pick off any of the swarm and the swarm isn't able to catch the solo pilot. It's a non-fight in most scenarios.

Well at last people admitted the swarm would prevail against any omega pilot willing to try and stop it.

I find it an interesting paradox when pilots speak of the wisdom of the pilot who watches d-scan and knows when to bug out before getting killed and then in the same breath disparage another pilot who has not been killed a lot by saying he doesn't undock.

Surprise people many of us flying around take great pride in the fact that we keep our heads on a swivel and don't get blindsided. I think it's good piloting and it has served me well in low sec and null sec.

Just because most are not good enough to catch me doesn't mean I am docked.

Knock on wood no doubt this bragging will jinx me, but percentage wise I am well ahead of the game and my crews appreciate it, as do the families they come home to.

Seeing those families come to the docking bay is more gratifying to me then running up kill mails.

That was my approach until recently, I have re-crewed with volunteer risk takers as my crews. I will be honest I do not now want to engage in fair fights, I am a student of "He who brings the mostest ,the fastest wins" combat doctrine.
As a student I am just now looking to apply these lessons in the field, so perhaps be seeing some of you, real soon.