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Dev blog: Clone States – Post Announcement Follow-up

First post
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#181 - 2016-09-08 22:42:06 UTC
Belinda HwaFang wrote:
1.) That is assuming they know the superset of all your accounts, past and future. Yes, they can IP block you, but IP addresses aren't an authenticated address, so those with the knowhow/cash to use a subscription hacking service will be able to play a game of cat and mouse with the infosec team at CCP.

2.) To answer your point that it's already possible to get somewhat anonymised accounts, I was under the impression that GTC sales were stopped some time ago, so this channel of anonymous accounts I believe has already been closed.

3.) If the rate at which players are breaking the EULA is so great that your incident response team can not handle them/ban them quickly enough, you have a big problem.

4.) If you need a reference: I recommend you study the original Planetside, which removed the credit card info as a requirement to creating free accounts circa 2006 I believe it was, leading to a great influx of players *and* causing the game to be so full of EULA violations that eventually legitimate players were starting to be forced out.

1.) IP blocks are an old hat with a long beard, buried alongside 14.4k modems. Even when broadband internet came around anyone using DSL had a dynamic IP address (unless it was a business product) and laughed in the face of any IP block. And thinking a simple VM + VPN combination makes someone immune... well, let them have their gleeful belief. Makes the bans even so sweeter.

2.) The only way nowadays to get an "anonymous" account is to never log into your account page and never subscribe to the game, paying for gametime since before your trial was over with PLEX. If you run other accounts through the same machine however, you can be certain of CCP knowing this. Since trials are limited and plex requires money from one end or the other, I'm certain CCP will look into new account registration and collection of data once Alpha Clones are available.

3.) A bit about eve history; we had our fair issues with bots of all kinds many years ago. Chat spam, mining bots, RMTs, whatsoever. We also had a limitation of 1500 simultaneous Trial accounts which sometimes was reached. I might still even have a screenshot of it. Overnight, all that stopped. CCP implemented something on their security end (it wasn't plex who put the RMTs out of business right off the bat). Ever since, RMT and "gold spam" virtually disappeared and the Trial limitation has never been hit again as far as I can recall.
Another thing is, I distinctly remember cases where if a player got banned, not just the account which violated was banned but all other accounts associated with the point of login as well. This taught some well needed lessons to folks who thought they could smack and abuse on trial in their past time and be safe on their main accounts not logged at the time.

4.) Planetside 2 learned from it. If the map is full or during any other queue, subscription Members always have priority access.
Circumstantial Evidence
#182 - 2016-09-09 00:28:21 UTC
Relyt Remarc wrote:
Does this new clone state stuff mean that an alt on my subbed account won't be able to fly anything T2 any more? Will any character on a subbed account have omega status regardless of whether or not the training Que is active?
Clone states will be the same for all characters on the account. If you subscribe an account by any method, all characters on that account will work just like today. This change will give currently inactive, un-subbed accounts a chance to log in (on any character in the un-subbed account) and see EVE, with reduced abilities.
DefaultGuy Redshirt
Dutch East Querious Company
Pandemic Horde
#183 - 2016-09-09 13:22:06 UTC
Personally I think that I would login up to 5 alpha clones to go mining or scouting or whatever.
the ability to simultaneously logon multiple legitimate accounts should be allowed.

As it stands today.. only very active players can afford to plex or buy more than one account. This means that they have a permanent advantage over semi serious casual players such as myself.

I think that this ability to have multiple, explicitly allowed, simultaneously active accounts is a good thing.

I think that the new (and even not so new) player experience is still the worst in the world. This is ultimately a social game today. Without that it would collapse quickly. The new player vs environment experience needs a major overhaul.
Might I recommend missions with cinematic experiences..

Plus 10 NV
#184 - 2016-09-09 14:48:20 UTC
I hope they limit concurrent alpha clones even though some people may cheat to try to get around it. That is not a reason to just destroy the game by letting hordes of meaningless alpha clones in.

Also unless I missed it, it is still unclear whether this will kill the value of pi for paid accounts. What happens for pi factories already set up by an omega that stops paying and goes alpha clone? Will the factories offline like modules?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve

Sturmgrenadier Inc
Pandemic Horde
#185 - 2016-09-09 17:02:33 UTC
Why is there only target painting one?

This makes using a target painter not as helpfull as it should.
THis should be bumped to 3.

This is especially true a painting is not as detrimental to the other fleet as jams or damps.

Looking for a mature, adult gaming community that has been active in EvE since 2004?Recruitment is open! Come join our public channel and get to know us. SG-Recruiting

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2016-09-09 20:48:36 UTC
DefaultGuy Redshirt wrote:
Might I recommend missions with cinematic experiences..

And that you can stick where the sun don't shine, You may run 2 a week but for some of us there would be no escape key left on the keyboard ....... keep that blizzard crap outta the game.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2016-09-10 14:49:35 UTC
Always hated cut scenes and loved half life for not having any. **** happening in real time is way more exciting
Ray Mitar
Ganksters Inc
#188 - 2016-09-10 16:41:57 UTC
One of the things that separates EVE from other games is the single shard shared real time (except tidi) experience we are all subjected to.

In game breaks for cinematics would be jarring to say the least. Making them a part of missions while in station is fine, you are docked up. Making them available when you interact with billboards in space also fine, you take the chance when you disconnect from the other capsuleers around you to watch, your choice.

During game play as an automatic part of a mission or event you are flying I think would not be good.
Digital Species X101
Judah Embassy
#189 - 2016-09-10 17:56:22 UTC
Hopefully new Jove and Drifter ships will be added soon. The Minmatar ships are not aligned with the thinking of their race and practices. As a law student, it'll be great to see CCP create a ingame court system with the participation of all races, including Concord to delve into political agendas of New Eden, mirroring external sandbox issues. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to create a structure for court proceedings only, with real time voice or chat box involvement and a avatar visual. Blowing things up can be fun, but EVE Online is more than that. It's sophisticated and gives the players a glimpse into the future of technology and industry. for example, the transfer of consciousness. As John F. Kennedy said " The human mind is the greatest computer of all." It will happen and when it does the inhabitants of New Eden should be prepared for the political battle. There are numerous issues that can be debated in this new court, yet one stands out... the transfer of consciousness. If an individual is convicted for 33 counts of murder, should his consciousness be transferred into a new clone after execution, to face the count of the other 32 murders? What about the transfer of his/her consciousness into animals as a conviction? The dialogue of EVE Online is just as important as blowing things up. Some people believe that you win wars by killing the citizens, because killing the soldiers will only make martyrs. Wars are won in the minds of the people.
Belinda HwaFang
Iris Kinetics - Aquisitions
#190 - 2016-09-11 12:00:05 UTC
One final comment from me: in a game that has already alienated those who prefer to play with one account logged in at a time, this is somewhat the final straw.

I feel like this is CCP telling me:

"You really should have n accounts logged in at all times, see, silly! That wormhole over there, you could have scouted that with account number y, and you didn't, so here, get ganked you numbskull! HTFU and install ISBoxer you neanderthal!"

Well personally I don't find this aspect a welcome change at all.
oiukhp Muvila
#191 - 2016-09-12 20:43:09 UTC  |  Edited by: oiukhp Muvila
Belinda HwaFang wrote:
One final comment from me: in a game that has already alienated those who prefer to play with one account logged in at a time.....

Well, they did that when they decided to heavily promote team gameplay when many people either preferred or needed to do many of those things by themselves at times.

Required Cyno for Captials instead of solo jumping to sun at some random but probe-able location.
Gate Jumps easily within range of single tackler, so any jump at un-scouted choke points in essentially suicide.

You need two accounts to solo move any jump capable ship.
You need two accounts to solo move anything of value in Null Sec, Low Sec, and frequently Hi Sec.

The fact that you need alts to do many things in this game is why there is such a problem with them. Remove or lessen the need for them and the problem with them will probably go away, but with a reduced Income for CCP due to less active accounts.

-Make it so you can Solo move jump capable ships by jumping within some range of the star. Maybe even have a unique signature appear briefly to allow balanced probing.

-Increase the range at which you appear at the destination gate on gate jumps to give a greater chance to get pass blockades.

Allowing jump capable ships to move with a single pilot with balanced risk and reducing the effectiveness of gate camps could go a long way to reduce the need for multiple logins at one time.

With enough changes and enough new players CCP could restrict all to a single login, if that is what most of the community wants.

Either accept than anyone can have 3-5 clients logged in with all the advantages, or change the game to remove or limit the need then restrict everyone to a single login.

Trying to limit logins and promote the game design that requires it will only push people away from the game, and **** off those who want more logged in characters but can't afford it.
Drago Shouna
#192 - 2016-09-13 10:08:00 UTC
There was a similar problem in a game called Dofus that I played for a long time.

It used to be ok, most like me ended up with a couple of accounts for professions as you were limited to 3 per character.

But then it started getting silly with some guys ending up with 8 accounts for one reason..dungeon runs.

Call it what you want, selfishness/efficiency whatever, but they socialised with nobody then because they just ran them day in day out and sold the high end mats and items they produced.

Ofc a lot started following suit and before you knew it any new players could never get on a dungeon run, even in the lower classed one because everyone had their own team, or 2 guys had 4 characters each so they wouldn't get their runs spoiled by a nub :/

Then another problem crept in somehow, you'd see someone outside the Goball Dungeon and let him join you as you could easily solo it, but then you would get pestered day in day out for more runs until you blocked them and became as anti social as everyone else...

After a long time of this the makers recognised it as an issue and tried to mitigate it with a system similar to our opportunities. But in Dofus you earned points, and as we all know, points make prizes, or in this case companions who would fight alongside you.

They did that and made the dungeons scaling as well so that if you had 2 accounts, you would also have 2 companions and the dungeon npc's would be half of what they would be for a full team of 8, in a turn based game you basically had 4 fighters instead of 2....This was all because guys who couldn't afford 8 accounts could never compete again, plus new guys were basically never going to catch up under the old system and get to run the elite dungeons. Yes you could join a Guild but you still had the same issues.

They also gave a single character the ability to level every profession, just to try and level the playing field a bit.

Did it work, imo nope. I subbed a couple of months ago to see what was happening simply because of the changes in here. To be met by a dying server, strangely with the same old faces who were a big cause of it just standing around moaning about the game and server being dead and the market which was dead, the forums are full of the same complaints as well. There's basically only 2 servers left with any semblance of life in them now, but they too seem to struggle now and then.

Does all this have anything to do with EVE? Not really I suppose, apart from the fact that this isn't the only game that struggles with what to do about multiboxing accounts. It's probably an issue in a lot of these types of games, and no, I don't have an answer.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Jamella Codetera
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#193 - 2016-09-15 02:26:06 UTC
So in the follow-up it still hasnt been discussed. Industry. Dont ruin industr,y just dont. Just do not. I do not know how to stress this that much. Do not give Alphas the right to create Stuff at the same cost as Omegas, this ruins Industry for Old & New players as Alpha-Farms WILL BECOME the only cost-efficent way to produce stuff that is produceable by Alphas.

I really dont know what happend to CCP in the past years, it seems like you have to setup a reddit account to be heard - that hurts.
Kaleic Karrif
Galactic Retribution
#194 - 2016-09-17 12:47:24 UTC
I applaud your decision to add alpha state to the game for some sort of Free to Play to the game. However I do have 1 concern with this.

I feel that the limitations may be too restrictive to be profitable for CCP and all around advantageous for the normal f2p gamer.

So while I understand CCP's approach to getting new and returning players back into the game and the goal is for a full subscription.

While this is a solid premise at the end of the day it would be more profitable to set in place a hard limitation to 1 Alpha account per Hardware Mac address, similar to what DayBreakGames did for their TrueBox servers where 1 Machine can only run 1 Client per connection, however multiple machines could be used. This would prevent free accounts from multi boxing and farming,

However I believe the ability for free accounts to reach a state of income where they can PLEX their account would increase the number of PLEX purchased thus increasing the overall income benefit of going F2P model. I am hugely against micro-purchases as I am sure the entire eve community is.

I believe that the ability to fly Mining Barges and use tech 1 strip miners would be sufficient income capability for players to farm up to earn a plex and utilizing a software similar to the TrueBox I mentioned earlier which blocks multiple accounts from running based on Machine Media Access Control address (MAC) would prevent this system from being exploited.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2016-09-17 12:54:45 UTC
virtual machines laughs at the MAC address limitations
Kaleic Karrif
Galactic Retribution
#196 - 2016-09-17 13:20:38 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
virtual machines laughs at the MAC address limitations

Virtual Machines have a hard time running the game and can be blocked by client port restrictions.
Jamella Codetera
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#197 - 2016-09-17 13:43:53 UTC
You want a guide how to plex ur account exlusively with Alphas? Setup Industry farms -> Profit.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2016-09-17 13:50:17 UTC
Kaleic Karrif wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
virtual machines laughs at the MAC address limitations

Virtual Machines have a hard time running the game and can be blocked by client port restrictions.

And how would that be separated from Omega accounts multi logging?
Kaleic Karrif
Galactic Retribution
#199 - 2016-09-17 14:25:25 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Kaleic Karrif wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
virtual machines laughs at the MAC address limitations

Virtual Machines have a hard time running the game and can be blocked by client port restrictions.

And how would that be separated from Omega accounts multi logging?

It wouldn't it would affect all accounts, as Multiplexing is a breach of the eula, if they plan to allow multi boxing without multiple input manipulation they could do account flags which would remove the truebox / anti boxing restriction
Kaleic Karrif
Galactic Retribution
#200 - 2016-09-17 14:26:37 UTC
Jamella Codetera wrote:
You want a guide how to plex ur account exlusively with Alphas? Setup Industry farms -> Profit.

read the list of allowable skills, they do not have enough indy to be able to plex.