These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1181 - 2016-09-04 13:15:10 UTC
Dread Red wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

Different scenario, Your T2 fitted omen Vs 2 t1 fitted caracals who happen upon you randomly and decide they want a bit of fun. They're both fairly competent now and have been playing for 3 or so months doing roams and fleet ops, hows your scorch measure upto against there heavies or rapid lights.

EvE isn't fair never has been and never will be, Just because your limited in equipment doesn't mean you are by numbers.


In that scenario if the Omen would decide to stick around he would probably lose - although unless he gets scrammed he would have enough velocity advantage to have a possibility of sticking around long enough to see if he can chew through one of these. In EVE numbers can often be used to trump smaller numbers in higher quality fits. Yes, "fair" 1vs1 rarely happens, but for the free-to-play player to perceive situation as "fair enough" to stick around while he/she decides if he is willing to spend money on the game there must be light in the end of the tunnel. There must be some kind of theoretical possibility, at minimum, to be "as good" as the paying customer in the thing which the F2P player is interested in. Cruisers are not particularly good example in that regard ofc as cruiser specific areas in EVE are practically non-existent. Unlike frigates which have all these nice little locked sandboxes where cruisers and above can not go.

I would like to remind one of the phrases which was uttered a while ago when supercapitals got nerfed/changed. It went something like this: "if your best counter is to bring just more of the same thing this thing is unbalanced". If only way for the Alphas to "win" is to outnumber the opposition then I honestly do not understand why would any genuinely fresh player play Alpha any more than 1-2 months at max. Alpha alts of Omegas are going to be there anyway as any sub that runs out will drop into Alpha state by default.


Perhaps one way to square this circle would be a rethink of meta turrets and launchers. At the moment, as you have so articulately elucidated, T2 are strictly better in every stat except fitting (and cap use for many turrets). I think it would be may more interesting if meta weapons were comparable - or even superior - to T2 in their specialist stat (eg: range, tracking, RoF, etc), but with the T2 variant being no worse than second best at anything. This would obviously leave T2 as a preferrable general alternative, but would make the meta weapons viable for specific builds - and therefore Alpha-compatible fits also.

Secondarily, a rework of faction weapon costs is LONG overdue. They are ludicroucly overpriced because the LP store cost of these items seemingly takes no account of the fact that you need 3-8 weapons per fit, unlike most other items which you need only one of. A straight up change to the LP store BPCs giving 5 runs would go a long way to making faction weapons an actual viable choice, and this again would make things better for Alphas.
Sadly as a former CSM member, and a damn fine one, you probably know all too well more often than not CCP doesn't care about making things better for Alphas or even the majority of their paying subscribers, who are in high sec. CCP wants to implement it's vision of how it's game should be played and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming from anything that varies from their fore drawn conclusions.


It's a bit too soon to accuse CCP of not caring about Alphas considering that there aren't any alphas.

An LP store review wouldn't just benefit hi-sec either.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Solecist Project
#1182 - 2016-09-04 13:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
The general idea is for them to subscribe, you know ...? Show some leg, give 'em time to complete the tutorial in their own time- that's all.

Learning the game is done after subscription.
Normally, at least.

With Alphas the whole thing changes completely ...
... because then everyone has unlimited time learning the game ...
... putting the teaching on a lower priority.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Solecist Project
#1183 - 2016-09-04 13:32:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dread Red wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

Different scenario, Your T2 fitted omen Vs 2 t1 fitted caracals who happen upon you randomly and decide they want a bit of fun. They're both fairly competent now and have been playing for 3 or so months doing roams and fleet ops, hows your scorch measure upto against there heavies or rapid lights.

EvE isn't fair never has been and never will be, Just because your limited in equipment doesn't mean you are by numbers.


In that scenario if the Omen would decide to stick around he would probably lose - although unless he gets scrammed he would have enough velocity advantage to have a possibility of sticking around long enough to see if he can chew through one of these. In EVE numbers can often be used to trump smaller numbers in higher quality fits. Yes, "fair" 1vs1 rarely happens, but for the free-to-play player to perceive situation as "fair enough" to stick around while he/she decides if he is willing to spend money on the game there must be light in the end of the tunnel. There must be some kind of theoretical possibility, at minimum, to be "as good" as the paying customer in the thing which the F2P player is interested in. Cruisers are not particularly good example in that regard ofc as cruiser specific areas in EVE are practically non-existent. Unlike frigates which have all these nice little locked sandboxes where cruisers and above can not go.

I would like to remind one of the phrases which was uttered a while ago when supercapitals got nerfed/changed. It went something like this: "if your best counter is to bring just more of the same thing this thing is unbalanced". If only way for the Alphas to "win" is to outnumber the opposition then I honestly do not understand why would any genuinely fresh player play Alpha any more than 1-2 months at max. Alpha alts of Omegas are going to be there anyway as any sub that runs out will drop into Alpha state by default.


Perhaps one way to square this circle would be a rethink of meta turrets and launchers. At the moment, as you have so articulately elucidated, T2 are strictly better in every stat except fitting (and cap use for many turrets). I think it would be may more interesting if meta weapons were comparable - or even superior - to T2 in their specialist stat (eg: range, tracking, RoF, etc), but with the T2 variant being no worse than second best at anything. This would obviously leave T2 as a preferrable general alternative, but would make the meta weapons viable for specific builds - and therefore Alpha-compatible fits also.

Secondarily, a rework of faction weapon costs is LONG overdue. They are ludicroucly overpriced because the LP store cost of these items seemingly takes no account of the fact that you need 3-8 weapons per fit, unlike most other items which you need only one of. A straight up change to the LP store BPCs giving 5 runs would go a long way to making faction weapons an actual viable choice, and this again would make things better for Alphas.
Sadly as a former CSM member, and a damn fine one, you probably know all too well more often than not CCP doesn't care about making things better for Alphas or even the majority of their paying subscribers, who are in high sec. CCP wants to implement it's vision of how it's game should be played and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming from anything that varies from their fore drawn conclusions.


It's a bit too soon to accuse CCP of not caring about Alphas considering that there aren't any alphas.

An LP store review wouldn't just benefit hi-sec either.

Aren't a huge bulk of highsec people actually nullbear alts?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#1184 - 2016-09-04 17:02:03 UTC
Dread Red wrote:
Sadly as a former CSM member, and a damn fine one, you probably know all too well more often than not CCP doesn't care about making things better for Alphas or even the majority of their paying subscribers, who are in high sec. CCP wants to implement it's vision of how it's game should be played and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming from anything that varies from their fore drawn conclusions.

That's because "most" people want to grind away in peace and do arena style combat.
"Most" people want to get rid of piracy.

"The majority"of people would be better served by another game-one where "terribly wrong" doesn't mean you're out of months or years worth of material. There's no shortage of them. Or they could always go on Sisi, where we aren't allowed to kill each other.
"The majority" of people couldn't care less which game they were playing as long as it's like every other themepark: do scripted content, get cookie, repeat until bored, leave. If "the majority" of people manage to get piracy nerfed into the ground, they'll begin to realize this game is incredibly boring and start to wander off, wondering what was so special about this game anyway. De-fang the universe, and the game that's left isn't very interesting at all.
"The majority" aren't smart enough to realize this is exactly the game they asked for.

It's happened before.

A signature :o

voetius
Grundrisse
#1185 - 2016-09-04 17:14:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dread Red wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

Different scenario, Your T2 fitted omen Vs 2 t1 fitted caracals who happen upon you randomly and decide they want a bit of fun. They're both fairly competent now and have been playing for 3 or so months doing roams and fleet ops, hows your scorch measure upto against there heavies or rapid lights.

EvE isn't fair never has been and never will be, Just because your limited in equipment doesn't mean you are by numbers.


In that scenario if the Omen would decide to stick around he would probably lose - although unless he gets scrammed he would have enough velocity advantage to have a possibility of sticking around long enough to see if he can chew through one of these. In EVE numbers can often be used to trump smaller numbers in higher quality fits. Yes, "fair" 1vs1 rarely happens, but for the free-to-play player to perceive situation as "fair enough" to stick around while he/she decides if he is willing to spend money on the game there must be light in the end of the tunnel. There must be some kind of theoretical possibility, at minimum, to be "as good" as the paying customer in the thing which the F2P player is interested in. Cruisers are not particularly good example in that regard ofc as cruiser specific areas in EVE are practically non-existent. Unlike frigates which have all these nice little locked sandboxes where cruisers and above can not go.

I would like to remind one of the phrases which was uttered a while ago when supercapitals got nerfed/changed. It went something like this: "if your best counter is to bring just more of the same thing this thing is unbalanced". If only way for the Alphas to "win" is to outnumber the opposition then I honestly do not understand why would any genuinely fresh player play Alpha any more than 1-2 months at max. Alpha alts of Omegas are going to be there anyway as any sub that runs out will drop into Alpha state by default.


Perhaps one way to square this circle would be a rethink of meta turrets and launchers. At the moment, as you have so articulately elucidated, T2 are strictly better in every stat except fitting (and cap use for many turrets). I think it would be may more interesting if meta weapons were comparable - or even superior - to T2 in their specialist stat (eg: range, tracking, RoF, etc), but with the T2 variant being no worse than second best at anything. This would obviously leave T2 as a preferrable general alternative, but would make the meta weapons viable for specific builds - and therefore Alpha-compatible fits also.

Secondarily, a rework of faction weapon costs is LONG overdue. They are ludicroucly overpriced because the LP store cost of these items seemingly takes no account of the fact that you need 3-8 weapons per fit, unlike most other items which you need only one of. A straight up change to the LP store BPCs giving 5 runs would go a long way to making faction weapons an actual viable choice, and this again would make things better for Alphas.
Sadly as a former CSM member, and a damn fine one, you probably know all too well more often than not CCP doesn't care about making things better for Alphas or even the majority of their paying subscribers, who are in high sec. CCP wants to implement it's vision of how it's game should be played and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming from anything that varies from their fore drawn conclusions.


It's a bit too soon to accuse CCP of not caring about Alphas considering that there aren't any alphas.

An LP store review wouldn't just benefit hi-sec either.


Decreasing the cost of faction guns and launchers would be a very good move. In previous threads in Features and Ideas that mentioned this I suggested that they could remove the NPC buy orders for navy insignias as they set a floor on the price of these items. That would probably annoy the few people that farm missions like Smash the Supplier and Enemies Abound though. Increasing the runs on the BPCs is a more elegant solution and doesn't mess with the supply and demand for navy insignias.
Pixel Piracy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1186 - 2016-09-05 03:27:26 UTC
Nothing bad ever came from Alpha state clones.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/alphatudyk_3883.jpg
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1187 - 2016-09-05 05:47:03 UTC
Once (actual) Alpha players hit the servers, the prices for cruiser-and-below meta items are going to drop, simply from the number of people who have heard that you can buy game time by playing, and choosing to farm L2 & L3 missions. They have heaps of time to gather the price of one PLEX.

Being limited to T1 cruisers and below they will most likely avoid L4 missions, sticking to L3, DED, COSMOS instead. Some will head out to farm anomalies, but in general they will boost the supply of modules which are not commonly seen. It might even become cost effective to suicide gank freighters with swarms of frigates.

The limits of the price drops will be the value of a particular activity in terms of ease of repetition, "fun," and ISK/hr. Remembering that the Aloha account is not bound by concerns of making the value of a PLEX every month.
win189
Little Sky Cats
#1188 - 2016-09-05 11:25:22 UTC
i dont know if any one mentioned this yet but
will this be a Toon by toon status or by Eve login status like it is now

Current system in place
Pay 1 month subscription and get access to
3 independent toons (one at a time)
train On one toon at a time Less you pay for multi Training
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1189 - 2016-09-05 11:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Daylan Vokan
win189 wrote:
i dont know if any one mentioned this yet but
will this be a Toon by toon status or by Eve login status like it is now

Current system in place
Pay 1 month subscription and get access to
3 independent toons (one at a time)
train On one toon at a time Less you pay for multi Training

If your account is subbed / plex - Omega status
If your a new player - alpha 5 mill skill point cap restricted skills sets - freeplay mode
If your an expired player - alpha and only have access to alpha skill set and ships until resub / plex
Neodell
Caldari Advanced War Technologies
#1190 - 2016-09-05 11:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Neodell
I think this is a good idea. The amount of times I have told people how great Eve is only to see their eyes fog over the second I say you have pay for it, or play long enough to get a plex, they walk away soon after that.

It would be good for high sec markets as there will be more newbies running around, good for corporations as there will be an increase in fresh fighters.

QuestionMy question to CCP is can someone sign up with a Free clone, train it up to the maximum skill points and then sell it for ISK here on the forums for someone to upgrade it, or continue using for free?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1191 - 2016-09-05 12:05:40 UTC
voetius wrote:

Decreasing the cost of faction guns and launchers would be a very good move. In previous threads in Features and Ideas that mentioned this I suggested that they could remove the NPC buy orders for navy insignias as they set a floor on the price of these items. That would probably annoy the few people that farm missions like Smash the Supplier and Enemies Abound though. Increasing the runs on the BPCs is a more elegant solution and doesn't mess with the supply and demand for navy insignias.


It also takes into account the fact that very few people fit just one weapon.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1192 - 2016-09-05 12:07:09 UTC
Neodell wrote:
I think this is a good idea. The amount of times I have told people how great Eve is only to see their eyes fog over the second I say you have pay for it, or play long enough to get a plex, they walk away soon after that.

It would be good for high sec markets as there will be more newbies running around, good for corporations as there will be an increase in fresh fighters.

QuestionMy question to CCP is can someone sign up with a Free clone, train it up to the maximum skill points and then sell it for ISK here on the forums for someone to upgrade it, or continue using for free?


Why would someone buy what they can get for free themselves? If you don't think that every invested player in EVE isn't going to start at least one (and more likely, one of each race) alpha the day they launch, I don't know what to tell you.

Market tip: have skillbooks on the market in the school systems Blink

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Sarina Aideron
Aideron Corp
#1193 - 2016-09-05 12:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarina Aideron
Ugh. Im not sure if i like this change. It could revitalize or destroy the game. Its very risky.

I wouldnt be surprised if we see a huge inflation after the change because F2P players are often hardcore grinders. Also the game will be seen as P2W by most new players because paying players have a massive advantage over non-paying players.

(The argument that EVE is not P2W because a noob omega can be defeated by a pro alpha is ridiculous. Of course the experienced player will always defeat the newbie. But what if a pro alpha meets a pro omega? Dont tell me that a max. skilled T2-fit ship doesnt have an advantage over a low skilled T1-fit ship.)
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1194 - 2016-09-05 13:21:22 UTC
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Ugh. Im not sure if i like this change. It could revitalize or destroy the game. Its very risky.

I wouldnt be surprised if we see a huge inflation after the change because F2P players are often hardcore grinders. Also the game will be seen as P2W by most new players because paying players have a massive advantage over non-paying players.

(The argument that EVE is not P2W because a noob omega can be defeated by a pro alpha is ridiculous. Of course the experienced player will always defeat the newbie. But what if a pro alpha meets a pro omega? Dont tell me that a max. skilled T2-fit ship doesnt have an advantage over a low skilled T1-fit ship.)

EvE is a subscription game that is going to adopt a free play mode instead of limited time trial, If the alpha gets to a point where he wants to join the ranks of Omega's he subscribes - Not pay2win. If it was that it had for instance for a payment of :

20 dollars for 30 days access to 3x damage mods
30 dollars for 15 days access to 2x accelerated leaning

^^ pay2win^^

Read and inwardly digest meanings before spouting doomsday prophecies Roll
Solecist Project
#1195 - 2016-09-05 13:39:36 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Ugh. Im not sure if i like this change. It could revitalize or destroy the game. Its very risky.

I wouldnt be surprised if we see a huge inflation after the change because F2P players are often hardcore grinders. Also the game will be seen as P2W by most new players because paying players have a massive advantage over non-paying players.

(The argument that EVE is not P2W because a noob omega can be defeated by a pro alpha is ridiculous. Of course the experienced player will always defeat the newbie. But what if a pro alpha meets a pro omega? Dont tell me that a max. skilled T2-fit ship doesnt have an advantage over a low skilled T1-fit ship.)

EvE is a subscription game that is going to adopt a free play mode instead of limited time trial, If the alpha gets to a point where he wants to join the ranks of Omega's he subscribes - Not pay2win. If it was that it had for instance for a payment of :

20 dollars for 30 days access to 3x damage mods
30 dollars for 15 days access to 2x accelerated leaning

^^ pay2win^^

Read and inwardly digest meanings before spouting doomsday prophecies Roll

She's not wrong, though.

You overlooked the part where facts and proper logic has no meaning whatsoever ...
... when you talk to a bunch of morons.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1196 - 2016-09-05 13:50:34 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Ugh. Im not sure if i like this change. It could revitalize or destroy the game. Its very risky.

I wouldnt be surprised if we see a huge inflation after the change because F2P players are often hardcore grinders. Also the game will be seen as P2W by most new players because paying players have a massive advantage over non-paying players.

(The argument that EVE is not P2W because a noob omega can be defeated by a pro alpha is ridiculous. Of course the experienced player will always defeat the newbie. But what if a pro alpha meets a pro omega? Dont tell me that a max. skilled T2-fit ship doesnt have an advantage over a low skilled T1-fit ship.)

EvE is a subscription game that is going to adopt a free play mode instead of limited time trial, If the alpha gets to a point where he wants to join the ranks of Omega's he subscribes - Not pay2win. If it was that it had for instance for a payment of :

20 dollars for 30 days access to 3x damage mods
30 dollars for 15 days access to 2x accelerated leaning

^^ pay2win^^

Read and inwardly digest meanings before spouting doomsday prophecies Roll

She's not wrong, though.

You overlooked the part where facts and proper logic has no meaning whatsoever ...
... when you talk to a bunch of morons.

When you read any of the click bait articles that have appeared ( i spent 4 hours trawling through them the other day ) All go into detail that its still a subscription game that has chosen to use a freeplay mode over a limited trial offering and that to make full use of the game you need to subscribe. None i've read claim its going " free 2 play " with no mention that it still is a sub based game.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1197 - 2016-09-05 18:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Daylan Vokan wrote:
EvE is a subscription game that is going to adopt a free play mode instead of limited time trial, If the alpha gets to a point where he wants to join the ranks of Omega's he subscribes - Not pay2win. If it was that it had for instance for a payment of :

20 dollars for 30 days access to 3x damage mods
30 dollars for 15 days access to 2x accelerated leaning

^^ pay2win^^

Read and inwardly digest meanings before spouting doomsday prophecies Roll

How about:

15 dollars for 30 days access to t2 weapons and ships (and even more!! Packagedeal!!1!)

Would that qualify as well as pay2win or why not?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1198 - 2016-09-05 18:34:11 UTC
Sarina Aideron wrote:
Ugh. Im not sure if i like this change. It could revitalize or destroy the game. Its very risky.

I wouldnt be surprised if we see a huge inflation after the change because F2P players are often hardcore grinders. Also the game will be seen as P2W by most new players because paying players have a massive advantage over non-paying players.

(The argument that EVE is not P2W because a noob omega can be defeated by a pro alpha is ridiculous. Of course the experienced player will always defeat the newbie. But what if a pro alpha meets a pro omega? Dont tell me that a max. skilled T2-fit ship doesnt have an advantage over a low skilled T1-fit ship.)


There's a pretty strict limit to what they'll be able to grind for, which is to say navy (no pirate - they require 2 racial hull skills) faction frigates and cruisers with, at best, faction weapons & drones.

Also they're restricted from L4 agents, aren't they?

OK that means your hypothetical Alpha ultragrinder could use a navy vexor (with Gallente Cruiser IV) with faction medium drones (and Drone Interfacing III max) and he'll be pulling maybe 15-18m/hr out of 0.0 anoms - but he'll be in 0.0

A more likely model for Alpha mass-scale grinding is hauler mission abuse, but LP grinding sinks ISK, it doesn't create it. That might lead to some mudflation, but that's a different issue from inflation. It would be fine if CCP did another bot blitz just before the alpha launch, just to send a message, you know?

Basically if there are enough people actually playing alphas that we're seeing real actual ISK inflation, or even mudflation, then the Alpha experiement will have succeeded beyond CCP's wildest dreams. And also, 0.0 will be filled with people undocked and shooting rats.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1199 - 2016-09-05 18:35:36 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
EvE is a subscription game that is going to adopt a free play mode instead of limited time trial, If the alpha gets to a point where he wants to join the ranks of Omega's he subscribes - Not pay2win. If it was that it had for instance for a payment of :

20 dollars for 30 days access to 3x damage mods
30 dollars for 15 days access to 2x accelerated leaning

^^ pay2win^^

Read and inwardly digest meanings before spouting doomsday prophecies Roll

How about:

15 dollars for 30 days access to t2 weapons and ships (and even more!! Packagedeal!!1!)

Would that qualify as well as pay2win or why not?


For the reason that is literally explained in the post you quoted.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Alexis Red
Doomheim
#1200 - 2016-09-05 18:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Red
Great idea for those who don't play often enough to justify a continuous subscription.

With that said, I made a post in Features and Ideas, that I will also leave here.


Create a New Micro-Plex Shorter term Subscription or Omega State 3 Day pass. Sell them in bulk packs of 10 for $19. and let buyers sell them on the open market, just like Plex 30 day passes are now.

I would buy a pack as it would last me 3 or 4 months of game play, at my random login pace.

Best wishes, for an otherwise decent idea that could grow into something more realistic.