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[September] Mining Barge and Exhumer tweaks

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#201 - 2016-08-26 15:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Drago Shouna wrote:



I haven't seen one post like that, what I have seen is players saying ganking should have more consequences other than losing a cheap ship and taking a 15 min tea break.


As I said, nerf pvp.

Drago Shouna wrote:

How would utility slots possibly help a solo miner anywhere?


Neuts, smartbobs, cyno, probe launcher and for when you are in a group, RR support (hence my calling for a remote shield rep role bonus for the mack and retribution to go with those two utility highs)
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2016-08-26 15:26:16 UTC
See Baltec? They don't WANT to use the tools.....

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#203 - 2016-08-26 15:33:11 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
See Baltec? They don't WANT to use the tools.....

No, Drago doesn't want to use the tools because it's Baltec arguing and Drago can't refrain from disagreeing.
Drago != miner collective hive mind.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2016-08-26 15:42:30 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
See Baltec? They don't WANT to use the tools.....

No, Drago doesn't want to use the tools because it's Baltec arguing and Drago can't refrain from disagreeing.
Drago != miner collective hive mind.



He's not the only miner that feels that way

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#205 - 2016-08-26 15:45:00 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:


He's not the only miner that feels that way


Those miners can choose to not use the new tools then. Miners as a whole should not be screwed over just because some vocal minority wan't to die to anything that catches them.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2016-08-26 15:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
baltec1 wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:


He's not the only miner that feels that way


Those miners can choose to not use the new tools then. Miners as a whole should not be screwed over just because some vocal minority wan't to die to anything that catches them.




Sounds great on paper. Until now you have ships with fitting and bonuses which have nothing to do with mining and the miners are all 'THis is useless and more broken then ever, CCP you have to fix it' for the next 3 years.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#207 - 2016-08-26 15:59:58 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:

Sounds great on paper. Until now you have ships with fitting and bonuses which have nothing to do with mining and the miners are all 'THis is useless and more broken then ever, CCP you have to fix it' for the next 3 years.


I would say having logi, DPS and the ability to fit a tank in your mining fleet will be far from useless and will have everything to do with running a successful mining operation.

Again I have to ask why is it that you want to be helpless?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#208 - 2016-08-26 16:06:47 UTC
I don't. I'm not. People I play with are not. We use the tools that we have, and are able to massively reduce our risks.


The catch is, we're willing to use the tools at hand.


The mining fleet you used as an example a few posts ago, did it have defense? Did it have logistics? Did it have scouts? Or did it forego ALL the tools that are available already, and just YOLO hope it worked out?


It's sounds great to have a multirole, able to do all this mining fleet on paper. The reality is, miners are not willing to use the tools at hand because they 100% of the time choose yield over everything else. Why do you expect this behavior to change because you make the tools shinier?


2 alts in scythes is all it takes to make most high sec mining fleets for all intents and purposes gank proof.



So I'll ask again, WHY do you think this 100% yield 100% of the time mentality will change because you make the tools shinier?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Lugh Crow-Slave
#209 - 2016-08-26 17:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
baltec1 wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

Sounds great on paper. Until now you have ships with fitting and bonuses which have nothing to do with mining and the miners are all 'THis is useless and more broken then ever, CCP you have to fix it' for the next 3 years.


I would say having logi, DPS and the ability to fit a tank in your mining fleet will be far from useless and will have everything to do with running a successful mining operation.

Again I have to ask why is it that you want to be helpless?



or we can just do what decent groups do now and have other ships built for those roles do that and keep our miners spect to mining


if you cant lower you m3 to put a pilot into a basi for RR or a falcon for e-war that's your choice.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#210 - 2016-08-26 17:37:15 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
See Baltec? They don't WANT to use the tools.....

No, Drago doesn't want to use the tools because it's Baltec arguing and Drago can't refrain from disagreeing.
Drago != miner collective hive mind.



Not quite, and as for hive mind..nope. (you obviously missed the post where I said a suggestion had merit)

Baltec and a couple of others presume that all miners need these utility slots for what, smartbombs, probe launchers etc and that all miners are just suicide jockeys without them?

I just don't see this thread inundated with hard done by miners crying out for joy at the suggestion. You'd have thought that might be a big hint.

Why is it so hard to see that miners just want to do what their name says? Mine.

If we die we die, hopefully we've earned more than enough to cover the replacement, a bit like gankers hoping to loot enough to make it worthwhile Blink

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#211 - 2016-08-26 17:57:40 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

Sounds great on paper. Until now you have ships with fitting and bonuses which have nothing to do with mining and the miners are all 'THis is useless and more broken then ever, CCP you have to fix it' for the next 3 years.


I would say having logi, DPS and the ability to fit a tank in your mining fleet will be far from useless and will have everything to do with running a successful mining operation.

Again I have to ask why is it that you want to be helpless?



or we can just do what decent groups do now and have other ships built for those roles do that and keep our miners spect to mining


if you cant lower you m3 to put a pilot into a basi for RR or a falcon for e-war that's your choice.

There's two problems. 1: You are entirely correct: using the current tools and systems at their disposal, miners are as completely safe as anybody can be in EvE. 2: That logic means they don't need skiffs or tank. Even if they're out in null...if they're not willing to lower M3 to field a few combat ships to take care of rats...

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#212 - 2016-08-26 18:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Drago Shouna
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

Sounds great on paper. Until now you have ships with fitting and bonuses which have nothing to do with mining and the miners are all 'THis is useless and more broken then ever, CCP you have to fix it' for the next 3 years.


I would say having logi, DPS and the ability to fit a tank in your mining fleet will be far from useless and will have everything to do with running a successful mining operation.

Again I have to ask why is it that you want to be helpless?



or we can just do what decent groups do now and have other ships built for those roles do that and keep our miners spect to mining


if you cant lower you m3 to put a pilot into a basi for RR or a falcon for e-war that's your choice.

There's two problems. 1: You are entirely correct: using the current tools and systems at their disposal, miners are as completely safe as anybody can be in EvE. 2: That logic means they don't need skiffs or tank. Even if they're out in null...if they're not willing to lower M3 to field a few combat ships to take care of rats...



You can't field a few combat ships as a solo player, even if you have 2 miners you aren't going to halve your income "just in case" and we've already seen in this thread a large fleet that didn't bother.

Anyway back on subject.....

I just logged one of my miners on to the test server to check the new skiff.

On my "old" skiff I mined 1 block of ice per 45.8s. If i have worked this out right.......(this time)...687s?

On the new one each harvester mines 1 block per 91.6s......732.8s? ( 7x91.6+91.6)

So the new one is slower, probably due to the extra cycle on the new one due to 15 blocks needed to fill the hold.

Upon thinking about it, it's probably going to better filling to 14 blocks and saving the 91.6s...641.2s. Saving 46s per run might work out to be more efficient in the long run.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#213 - 2016-08-26 19:51:09 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
So serious question? Since you're doing a mining barge pass, and will soon be doing some of the mining structures, and the orca and rorqual.... why is all this work being thrown into making a bad process look better, but still be just as bad?


Why are we not doing a proper re-vamp and addressing, for better or worse, alot of the long standing complaints with mining, and working forward from there?

These "balances" are based entirely around the new Industrial structures that are coming out soon™ (I'm expecting a delay in the release.)

So, basically nerf industrial ships into the ground to make these new toys that'll be released soon™ actually worth the time and money...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#214 - 2016-08-26 20:14:30 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



or we can just do what decent groups do now and have other ships built for those roles do that and keep our miners spect to mining


if you cant lower you m3 to put a pilot into a basi for RR or a falcon for e-war that's your choice.


Its not the fact you lower your M3 per hour its the fact that you have people sitting with the miners doing nothing and earning nothing. This is why nobody flys logi in a mining fleet or parks a combat fleet with them, they have nothing to do. Giving the ability to the miners themselves means the defense and the logi are the very people who are mining.



Drago Shouna wrote:


I just don't see this thread inundated with hard done by miners crying out for joy at the suggestion. You'd have thought that might be a big hint.


More support than for the current CCP plan.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2016-08-26 20:19:56 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
So serious question? Since you're doing a mining barge pass, and will soon be doing some of the mining structures, and the orca and rorqual.... why is all this work being thrown into making a bad process look better, but still be just as bad?


Why are we not doing a proper re-vamp and addressing, for better or worse, alot of the long standing complaints with mining, and working forward from there?

These "balances" are based entirely around the new Industrial structures that are coming out soon™ (I'm expecting a delay in the release.)

So, basically nerf industrial ships into the ground to make these new toys that'll be released soon™ actually worth the time and money...




These 'balances' are mostly just a model replacement. They still don't do anything to address the bad/gameplay/mechanics of mining in general.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#216 - 2016-08-26 20:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Kenrailae wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
So serious question? Since you're doing a mining barge pass, and will soon be doing some of the mining structures, and the orca and rorqual.... why is all this work being thrown into making a bad process look better, but still be just as bad?


Why are we not doing a proper re-vamp and addressing, for better or worse, alot of the long standing complaints with mining, and working forward from there?

These "balances" are based entirely around the new Industrial structures that are coming out soon™ (I'm expecting a delay in the release.)

So, basically nerf industrial ships into the ground to make these new toys that'll be released soon™ actually worth the time and money...




These 'balances' are mostly just a model replacement. They still don't do anything to address the bad/gameplay/mechanics of mining in general.

Well, I did say Industrial Ships, not only Barges...otherwise I would've said so!

Of course this round of of balances are based entirely around the new ship models. The only thng they do in reality is slightly raise the Killmail value and cost to run the Procurer and Skiff whilst lowering the Killmail value and cost to run a Covetor and Hulk. As I said earlier in this thread, they could use an actual buff in their EHP so they're not easy to kill.

Also, unless you actually have a decent idea of how to change the game play of shooting a rock that won't completely break the game, (mainly the market...thus game) then by all means.
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#217 - 2016-08-26 20:43:44 UTC
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
Uriam Khanid wrote:
2 years ago (Kronos?/july 2014) you add ''strip miner yield and ice harvester cycle time role bonuses'' to barges and exhumers.
Now you are removing them. Why?!



CCP Fozzie wrote:
As part of this change we are increasing the yield of all barge-sized strip miners and ice harvesters, which cancels out the changes to hardpoints and bonuses on the Barges and Exhumers



???? what the hell is it???Question
little (just small) explanation: CCP return what they remove 2 years ago.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2016-08-26 21:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Mai Khumm wrote:

Well, I did say Industrial Ships, not only Barges...otherwise I would've said so!

Of course this round of of balances are based entirely around the new ship models. The only thng they do in reality is slightly raise the Killmail value and cost to run the Procurer and Skiff whilst lowering the Killmail value and cost to run a Covetor and Hulk. As I said earlier in this thread, they could use an actual buff in their EHP so they're not easy to kill.

Also, unless you actually have a decent idea of how to change the game play of shooting a rock that won't completely break the game, (mainly the market...thus game) then by all means.




There are lots of ideas. Ideas aren't the bottleneck. There are also people who are paid I'm sure a not unattractive salary to address these issues. The bottleneck is getting things moving where those people start looking at the problems with current mining mechanics, and start considering/adapting the plethora of ideas out there. Yeah I have some thoughts, but I don't claim they are the only way to do it.



Question is still out there: Why is so much effort being put into making a bad process look shinier, while also not addressing some of the problems in that process, be it by using my super plus extra awesome mining idea or that guy over there's?


EDIT: Unless when those structures are launched, mining barges and industrial ships are just going to be completely obsolete and 0 point whatsoever in flying them, those same bad mining mechanics are still going to exist.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2016-08-26 21:09:47 UTC
As someone who mines, I can tell you that the changes CCP wants to put forth is not going to do squat. The Retriever / Mackinaw will still be #1 and #2 and maybe swap places. The Hulk will still be #3, and the Skiff / Procurer will still be #4 and #5. Why, is because, ore hold, trumps yeild, trumps tank. Ore hold means you can be at the coal-face longer without having to zip back and forth wasting time not mining.

Yield is a secondary concern, yield can almost make up for the time zipping back and forth not mining. The Hulk, King of yeild only manages the #3 spot because its tiny ore hold hampers it except in large industrial concerns with a large number of players. You will note I said players not characters. The single player highsec corp with 10 to 15 characters out mining wants to ALT-TAB as little as possible. This means the Retriever and Mackinaw reign even though the Hulks would out pace them in yeild. To much fiddling with timing to jetison ore and coordinating ore haulers make the Hulk a multi player fleet ship.

Tank is an afterthought for most miners. On the rare time you do get ganked you are only out about one hours worth of mining if you are flying a single Retriever. A single player, running ten mining characters, can make up a ganked Retriever in just over six minutes. A Skiff or Procurer doesn't have the ore bay of the Retriever or Mackinaw so the drawback of having to juggle ALT-TAB'ing doesn't ovecome the greater protection the hulls provide.

I'm sorry, but CCP, baltec1, and many other 'helpful' individuals in this thread, totaly miss the mark on what actual miners want in a mining platform.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#220 - 2016-08-26 21:12:51 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
Uriam Khanid wrote:
2 years ago (Kronos?/july 2014) you add ''strip miner yield and ice harvester cycle time role bonuses'' to barges and exhumers.
Now you are removing them. Why?!



CCP Fozzie wrote:
As part of this change we are increasing the yield of all barge-sized strip miners and ice harvesters, which cancels out the changes to hardpoints and bonuses on the Barges and Exhumers



???? what the hell is it???Question
little (just small) explanation: CCP return what they remove 2 years ago.



Well how I just worked it out above, it's a nerf to Ice mining at least. The yield is exactly the same, but the new version needs an extra 91s to fill a skiff.

I haven't done the ore timings/yield yet but I'll get to them.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.