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[September] Mining Barge and Exhumer tweaks

First post
Author
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#241 - 2016-08-27 08:56:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

You keep asking why we're choosing to be helpless. I'll answer you for the final time, then if you ask again, I'll have to re-assess my opinion of your reading comprehension: We are not helpless. We use the tools we have and protect our stuff. The exact same thing we've been telling 'Oh I got ganked nerf ganking threads' for years. That is the cost of business. We do not require ships that can do everything under the sun and in the ocean too. Ships like that will only become a future problem that we'll still be talking about in 3 years because now they can't be fit for max yield with all these 'useless' high slots and whatnot.


You want to fix the problem with mining?


Let's start by talking about the Bzzzzzzzzttttttttttttttt for hours on end.


You have no tools to use. Two of the ships have literally no fitting options. All miners are doing is whining for more and more nerfs to keep them safe rather than demanding the ability to keep themselves safe. These ships are bad and promote the very attitude you are showing which is one of complete disconnection to the rest of the game. You are not having to make choices that everyone else has to make when fitting your ships, you are not working together because the ships simply do not promote working together. You do not actively look to join groups outside of highsec because you think null and lowsec organisations look down on you and you are right they do, but that is because as miners you have no understanding of basic game mechanics simply because the mining barges don't allow for you to learn them.

In six months time we will bright right back here with a 4th attempt at a barge rebalance.


Where's the whining threads from miners? Where's the demand for others to be nerfed? Where's the thread demanding more protection via more high slots?

You, by this very post presume all miners are in HS. I'm in Null......Along with a lot of others.

You also presume that all that miners do is mine, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

The last couple of days have been spent manufacturing Frigates, Destroyers and Industrials for the corp along with a bit of mining. Last night was spent in a defence fleet chasing a couple of annoying reds, and podding them.

Stop presuming you know about miners, you know nothing.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#242 - 2016-08-27 08:56:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
baltec1 wrote:


You have no tools to use. Two of the ships have literally no fitting options. All miners are doing is whining for more and more nerfs to keep them safe rather than demanding the ability to keep themselves safe. These ships are bad and promote the very attitude you are showing which is one of complete disconnection to the rest of the game. You are not having to make choices that everyone else has to make when fitting your ships, you are not working together because the ships simply do not promote working together. You do not actively look to join groups outside of highsec because you think null and lowsec organisations look down on you and you are right they do, but that is because as miners you have no understanding of basic game mechanics simply because the mining barges don't allow for you to learn them.

In six months time we will bright right back here with a 4th attempt at a barge rebalance.




Tools that are in game:


Scythe
Scimitar
Basilisk
Osprey
Any frigate through battleship
Command ships
Orca's
Haulers


To name a few.


Tools that get used: All of the above. Refusal to acknowledge the existence of a tool does not make the tool magically not exist.


You are also looking quite the fool by suggesting that the only thing people in this thread who are telling you your idea won't work because it doesn't address the actual problems only sit and mine all day, and not.... maybe have low/null PVP mains with industrial alts. Further, you're devaluing your own understanding of the game by sitting on that pedestal and saying you understand it so much better than everyone else, a guy who has said that he can't be bothered to sit and do mining, or be part of the defense of mining because he has other things to do with his time, and because it's too boring and too do nothing for him to do it. Miners still go at it and enjoy it because they either socialize or just enjoy that slow paced game play. Who is better qualified to speak on the subject of mining?



baltec1 wrote:
Are you willing to sit in a belt earning nothing for several hours with nothing to do? I know I'm not, I have limited time to play and spending it baby sitting miners rather than enjoying myself isn't good gameplay. At least this way the people mining can do the protecting at the same time.



Pg 13, Barge info thread in General discussion





Mining ships are at their best when working together, in a fleet, with other ships. Nearly everything about them is designed to work as a fleet, though yes a couple have provisions for solo work as well. But like everything in Eve, they can be used solo or together. A PVP fleet doesn't just pick one ship class and yolo around, because it does not work. A mining fleet also does not work when using just one ship class.



You also keep going on with this 'but people aren't doing anything' argument. Well.... that's what mining is. Sitting for hours doing nothing or next to. Occasionally locking an asteroid, and moving a pile of ore. Far and away it's a sit and do nothing activity. Both PVP and mining fleets also are subject to downtime. The difference is a PVP fleet either spends it sitting in station, on a titan or sov wanding doing nothing while waiting, where a mining fleet spends it in a belt between rat spawns, ganks and orca empty's.


You suggest that not changing them will result in doing this again in 6 months, I'm telling you for fact that doing it your way will do the same, because the core problem will still exist, and miners will still choose 100% yield over every other feature, and your ships will not be able to meet that. You understand the common theme yeah? Mining mechanics.


Mining in Eve is a horrid mechanic. You want to fix this problem? Then we need to push a complete redo for mining, not these continuous, 'Oh well it didn't work this way, let's try doing the same thing this way and see if it works!' There are pages of them buried in F and I.


But as a self proclaimed individual who can't be bothered with mining because the game play is so bad, I'm not sure you're qualified to continue speaking on the subject of what exactly mining needs, as you're trying to force a PVP'ers mindset on it. You want to keep talking about the mechanics of mining? Okay. But please stop suggesting you know what mining barges need. You do not.


EDIT: Dammit Drago, stop stealing my words!

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2016-08-27 09:10:08 UTC
I agree with baltec , make them harder do kill and able to kill stuff. I do love the skiff usually 10 of them with their drones bonus can deal with small stuff and rapes frigs .
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#244 - 2016-08-27 09:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Pesadel0 wrote:
I agree with baltec , make them harder do kill and able to kill stuff. I do love the skiff usually 10 of them with their drones bonus can deal with small stuff and rapes frigs .




So do you mean being able to fit remote shield transfers and smartbombs to your mining barges?


Or do you just want more shield HP/resists and drone bonuses?




EDIT
What do you mean, make them harder to kill and able to kill stuff?



worded poorly

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#245 - 2016-08-27 09:16:53 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:




Where's the whining threads from miners? Where's the demand for others to be nerfed?


Every week somewhere on these forums someone makes a nerf ganking thread or turns another thread into one.

Drago Shouna wrote:

You, by this very post presume all miners are in HS. I'm in Null......Along with a lot of others.

You also presume that all that miners do is mine, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

The last couple of days have been spent manufacturing Frigates, Destroyers and Industrials for the corp along with a bit of mining. Last night was spent in a defence fleet chasing a couple of annoying reds, and podding them.

Stop presuming you know about miners, you know nothing.


We have had 10 years of more or less the exact same posts from miners bitching about how boring it is while at the same time demanding ever more CCP provided safety. Miners have garnered a reputation as the most useless players in EVE. I say alter the bargers so not only are they all useful but can also defend themselves. Your response? No don't give us options!

Right now you are calling for miners to be left in their current ****** position while someone from the corp that brought about the mining interdictions is trying to help them with better fitting options, ability to defend themselves and provide more content.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#246 - 2016-08-27 11:27:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


even if that were true (it maybe if you are not using skiffs)

it will no longer be an issue once the rorqu changes hit


It will in highsec, and every time you don't have a rorqual. These ships should not have to rely on a capital to actually work.



if you can't tank to last 26seconds in HS you failed or were outnumbered between RR on the haulers and fitting a command ship with shield links it's not hard to pull off.

in low and null skiffs and procs can last more than long enough now for a response fleet to show up.
Splatacus
Cordata Enterprises
#247 - 2016-08-27 12:07:43 UTC
Yossarian Toralen wrote:
What is the intended outcome that will come from this change?




Yes, I was wondering about this as well, what exactly is the problem being addressed?

Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#248 - 2016-08-27 12:26:50 UTC
Splatacus wrote:
Yossarian Toralen wrote:
What is the intended outcome that will come from this change?




Yes, I was wondering about this as well, what exactly is the problem being addressed?


My guess: to make the barges easier to compare and so make your decision, wich one to fly easier.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Lugh Crow-Slave
#249 - 2016-08-27 12:28:36 UTC
Splatacus wrote:
Yossarian Toralen wrote:
What is the intended outcome that will come from this change?




Yes, I was wondering about this as well, what exactly is the problem being addressed?




its just a small balance pass. i think the largest goal is to make it easier for a new player to pick the right one (hence all have 2 lasers now)
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
Goonswarm Federation
#250 - 2016-08-27 14:09:02 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Your quote about the Mack is pure rubbish, there's a reason it's top of the list.

You presume everyone has 4/5/6/7 accounts, whatever, not everyone has a full blown fleet. For solo guys in HS the Mack makes perfect sense, even for someone with 2 accounts it makes sense.

To base your post around everyone having 4 accounts is just wrong. Trust me, if you mined in Null, your Hulks would be docking. You put a DST on grid in null? Look at the guy in this thread who did that...boom. Hell, you'd be better off with a Miasmos to haul the ore back.


Yeah, there's a reason why the Mackinaw is top of the list; AFK miners in HighSec.

And yeah, pretty much everyone does have multiple accounts. They Plex themselves several times over if you're doing it right.

I mine in Null. I only dock for Reds - and everybody does that. And yes, I put a DST on grid in Null. Why the hell not?
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#251 - 2016-08-27 14:10:01 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
When do we get the Tech II Orca?

Never... Whatever you do with a T2 Orca, it's already available with another ship!

Im expecting the Orca to be nerfed into uselessness...they already made the Rorqual completely useless!
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#252 - 2016-08-27 14:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Kenrailae wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
I agree with baltec , make them harder do kill and able to kill stuff. I do love the skiff usually 10 of them with their drones bonus can deal with small stuff and rapes frigs .




So do you mean being able to fit remote shield transfers and smartbombs to your mining barges?


Or do you just want more shield HP/resists and drone bonuses?




EDIT
What do you mean, make them harder to kill and able to kill stuff?



worded poorly

Apply the Drone Bonus of the Proc/Skiff across the line of barges.

Even out the EHP of the ships, currently I can (with some creative fitting) get a Skiff to around 120k EHP overheated and implants. Apply the same tank fit to Hulk, you have 21k...ish EHP. This is using T2 fitting, Genolution 1-4, and +4 CPU (I think it's the CPU implant...at work, can't exactly pull up my client ATM.)

Just enough EHP to survive a gank in a 0.5 of 2-3 cats, and the drone damage to discourage the non-dedicated groups!
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#253 - 2016-08-27 15:13:51 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
I agree with baltec , make them harder do kill and able to kill stuff. I do love the skiff usually 10 of them with their drones bonus can deal with small stuff and rapes frigs .




So do you mean being able to fit remote shield transfers and smartbombs to your mining barges?


Or do you just want more shield HP/resists and drone bonuses?




EDIT
What do you mean, make them harder to kill and able to kill stuff?



worded poorly

Apply the Drone Bonus of the Proc/Skiff across the line of barges.

Even out the EHP of the ships, currently I can (with some creative fitting) get a Skiff to around 120k EHP overheated and implants. Apply the same tank fit to Hulk, you have 21k...ish EHP. This is using T2 fitting, Genolution 1-4, and +4 CPU (I think it's the CPU implant...at work, can't exactly pull up my client ATM.)

Just enough EHP to survive a gank in a 0.5 of 2-3 cats, and the drone damage to discourage the non-dedicated groups!




So more tank, more drones/drone damage, and don't mess with max yield.....?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#254 - 2016-08-27 15:35:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Kenrailae wrote:
So more tank, more drones/drone damage, and don't mess with max yield.....?


Let's be honest here...minus LP and drops, everything comes from a rock ripped out by a mining lazer. If you **** with those numbers, you kinda **** the economy...

Increase yield, market crashes...decrease yield, market inflates.
Henricks
#255 - 2016-08-27 16:14:41 UTC
Bottom line is, CCP is nerfing the Hulks by 626m3, dose not sound like much, by look at It this way:

lets say it's time for you're corp to mine, at this time you're Hulk get 1412x3 that 4236 for each Hulk,

Now lets look at CCPs new Idea of the Hulk: 1805*2=3610-4236=626

626(less ore)x20(Miners)=15,520 less from the corp fleet of miners. Which would you like to mine with 3610 or 4236 per Hulk.

my two sense
Lugh Crow-Slave
#256 - 2016-08-27 17:08:03 UTC
Henricks wrote:
Bottom line is, CCP is nerfing the Hulks by 626m3, dose not sound like much, by look at It this way:

lets say it's time for you're corp to mine, at this time you're Hulk get 1412x3 that 4236 for each Hulk,

Now lets look at CCPs new Idea of the Hulk: 1805*2=3610-4236=626

626(less ore)x20(Miners)=15,520 less from the corp fleet of miners. Which would you like to mine with 3610 or 4236 per Hulk.

my two sense



either way the market will adjust
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2016-08-27 17:08:33 UTC
Kalido Raddi wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Your quote about the Mack is pure rubbish, there's a reason it's top of the list.

You presume everyone has 4/5/6/7 accounts, whatever, not everyone has a full blown fleet. For solo guys in HS the Mack makes perfect sense, even for someone with 2 accounts it makes sense.

To base your post around everyone having 4 accounts is just wrong. Trust me, if you mined in Null, your Hulks would be docking. You put a DST on grid in null? Look at the guy in this thread who did that...boom. Hell, you'd be better off with a Miasmos to haul the ore back.


Yeah, there's a reason why the Mackinaw is top of the list; AFK miners in HighSec.

And yeah, pretty much everyone does have multiple accounts. They Plex themselves several times over if you're doing it right.

I mine in Null. I only dock for Reds - and everybody does that. And yes, I put a DST on grid in Null. Why the hell not?



I mine in null too, but I do it because I enjoy it, never done it to plex...that just makes it a job, you see I can do what I want, when I want instead of worrying about the next batch of plex I need to get, practically forcing you to log on. I have 3 accs, I just sub them with cash. BTW, with the changes coming your plex just got a touch harder as you need to mine for that much longer.

The Mack might well be used semi afk in HS, so what, I used mine the other day in Null keeping an eye on local and the intel channels.

As for the DST, yeah it's your ship use it as you see fit, I'll continue to use one that's 200x cheaper and can hold more..63k m3.(a touch more using the cargo hold)

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#258 - 2016-08-27 17:14:10 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
As for the DST, yeah it's your ship use it as you see fit, I'll continue to use one that's 200x cheaper and can hold more..63k m3.(a touch more using the cargo hold)



... did you just imply that a dst could not hold more than 63k
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2016-08-27 17:42:27 UTC
If it's not failfit he's right, no?
Or did you have a bigger DST than the rest of us?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#260 - 2016-08-27 17:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
If it's not failfit he's right, no?
Or did you have a bigger DST than the rest of us?



... you mean like a bustard naked that gets 67.5k now i may not of graduated the 5th grade but i'm pretty sure 67>63


the smallest one unfit gets 65.6k