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We want to help ccp bring more players into eve!

First post
Author
Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
#121 - 2016-08-18 03:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Roenok Baalnorn
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
post #100



You certainly have a very negative opinion about the way other people pvp. Lets run through them:


* Null f1 Monkey = This is what parrots and noobs usually say of null pvp. Its their "excuse" for not being brave enough to live there. " Oh i dont want to be an F1 Monkey" " I want to fly my own ships my own way", etc. In reality, they are usually to scared to go to null and live there, they dont like the fact that they can be killed at any time, or they just dont want to be a team player. They want to try to solo a game that focuses on socializing and group activities.

Sometimes, they tried it but had a bad experience with a bad corp or alliance, so they now label all of null as mindless drones that do nothing but F1 and blob. Ironically, that is the only thing most people hear about when it comes to null is some alliance that blobbed another alliance and other such activities. Yet these activities make up a very small part of null life and even null pvp.

Sure some alliances blob each other. But honestly those are crap alliances. Its the only way they can take and hold space because a majority of their pilots have no ability to actually pvp. They have no choice but to bring overwhelming numbers because they generally lack the ability to be efficient in anything but 2 to 1 or better odds.

But their are many alliances that are not that way. And there is a lot that goes in null that isnt your stereotypical F1 blob. My own alliance does a lot of small gangs and roams. Some even go out solo. We sometimes gate camp. We even change our tactics, fleet comps, etc. to get enemies to engage us. We do every type of pvp in null that exist in this game. And we by far do the most pvp when compared to low/high residents in this game of all types.

So calling null pvpers F1 monkeys only shows how little you know about null life and null pvp.

* Fake Pirate/Ganker - I really do not know what constitutes a fake pirate/ganker. You are either a pirate/ganker or youre not. Does a fake pretend to be one but isnt?

A pirate is, by historical definition, a person or group that preys on weakers persons/groups. These are usually merchant vessels. They usually attack for the "booty" though some may hold a ship for ransom. They operate in areas where governments have a hard time enforcing law and order such as the high seas. Their ships can usually either outrun traditional naval vessels or overpower them.

In eve, Pirates live in lowsec. High sec pirates are not really a thing. To be defined as a pirate you need to do criminal activities but rarely if ever get caught and punished for said activities. Pirates in eve prey on passer-byes and may either engage another combat ship if they think they can win or have an exit strategy that will in most cases guarantee they leave the grid unharmed.

Gankers combine pirate activities with kamikaze runs. When you are pretty much immortal dying for a big payday or just to teach someone a lesson isnt really an issue.

Both activities are not only commonplace in Eve but in the real world as well(Except you do not respawn in a clone when you kamikaze). Its human nature for the strong to prey on the weak. Flying a "faith tanked" t1 frigate with 30 billion isk in Skill injectors or plexes is just begging for someone to kill you. Just like walking through a bad neighborhood at night with a lot of shiny jewelry and a wad of money in your hand is just begging someone to rob you.

**Bittervet Gatecamps- People camp gates for different reasons. Some camp for sov defense ( do you just let random people walk into your house and grab a sandwich out of the fridge?), Some camp to catch players not paying attention. , Some camp because they dont feel like roaming for targets or want to use ships that are better suited for local fighting rather than hit and run tactics( read BC and BS) . Some gate camp for strategic and tactical purposes.

While there are exceptions to the rule, a majority of pvpers dont really care a lot about KBs. Worrying about your KB takes a lot of the fun out of PVP. I, personally would of missed out on a lot of good fights, if i though" i shouldnt do that because it might hurt my KB". People that are worried about KBs are usually self absorbed and egotistical. They have yet to figure out KB stats dont really matter. I can have a 100:1 K:L ratio but if i fly in a fleet of 100 people and blob 20-30 man fleets or i kill mostly industrials, mining ships, and t1 ships and other nonsense in my vindi/mach/etc. on a gate or if i wardec half of eve and then sit outside of a trade hub and wait for someone to undock so i can blap them that doesnt mean im good at pvp. It just means im an opportunist.

And i cant recall any pvpers in my near decade of playing this game in which they said " wait, got to check if this guy is new or not..... ok he is two years old. i can kill him. " No one checks to see if you are a new player or not. PVP goes something like this in eve:

1) Target on grid. Check.
2) Is it a valid target( IE: not blue, can i live with the consequences of attacking the target). Check.
3) Can I/we take this target? Check.
4) Is the target in an acceptable range( can we prevent from leaving or blap before they can warp)? Check.
5) Target is valid, Locking target.

At no point in this 1 second process does " Is target a newbie" enter the thought process. A majority of PVPers are impartial to how new a target is. We dont care if your 10 minutes old or 10 years old and we dont have time to check your profile. Welcome to Eve, enjoy your stay however short it may be.
Serene Repose
#122 - 2016-08-18 03:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Thanks so much for that sentiment Shae

I'll get back on topic here. "We want to help ccp bring more players into eve!"
Ask them. (Who?) Those who would be the "more players" people.

I have and I'll be specific. In Lord of the Ring Online, Guild Wars 2, Uncharted Waters Online, and Star Wars the Old Republic I have in their global and regional chat functions, frequently broached the subject of playing EVE. Some of us EVE players say things a certain way that gives us away, and will trigger the question, "Hey. Do you play EVE?" To which you get the response, "Yeah. Do you?" Yeah. And then the conversation stops. It's odd. Nobody that plays EVE will really discuss it with each other even in other games. I'm supposing it's carrying forward the "trust no one" rule. And, I'm always left with wondering if this commends itself well to other players who haven't played or won't play EVE.

Some one will then ask, "What is EVE?" This is where it gets relevant to this discussion. Defining what we are. It doesn't have to be accurate. It just has to be what people believe it is. This decides if it's a draw or not. The other question is, "What's it like? I've been thinking of trying it." The responses to these two questions speak volumes, and regardless of what expertise we may try to gin up among ourselves to answer the challenge presented by the OP, we are left with this view that is shared by those who would be the people to become our "more players" we're after.

As such, there is no argument. You can have an opinion about someone else's opinion I guess. But that won't change anyone's mind and send a flood of new, paying customers EVE's way. You can vigorously assert how incorrect these impressions may be, or argue about how the person holding the view is wrong. But, if you're in business, all we're discussing here is, "Why won't this customer buy from us?" Telling a person they're philosophically incorrect won't get them into your store...or game.

So, what are these views? First and foremost is, players with a distinct time advantage over you (gear and skill) can victimize you and not only is nothing done about it, the management encourages it. I tell you. The most common response to this is, "Well. That's stupid. I'll never play that game." Now. We all know this is true. If you claim it isn't you're just knowingly wasting our time, and trying to divert the conversation - definition of a troll. People are just not inclined to pay for the experience of being mugged and robbed. Given the other gaming choices they have available, common sense dictates this isn't an option. The fact the EVE community has to argue this point interminably just makes it worse on the EVE community in the eyes of those who hold this opinion. This leads to the second opinion.

EVE players just aren't nice people. They're mean. They're dishonest. They're selfish. They're inconsiderate, and they take delight in the misery of others. (moar tears...?) We are just seen as the bad seed of the gaming world. We are seen not as outlaws but as psychos. EVE is actually seen to be the place where psychos enjoy one another's company. And, once again, nobody (given the choices available) is going to pay money for the experience of rubbing elbows with the mentally disturbed.

You get over those two impressions, you have a shot at "more members". You argue it's not true. It's a lie. They're dumb. Whatever you like, you only further enforce the impression. The key point in these conversations revolves around the view that management finding acceptable the victimizing of its customers by other customers is seriously questionable. If management has this as a policy there's no hope, and nothing has a possibility of changing, so why waste your time? Pick another option.

Nobody forces you to play EVE. Unless you want to play a game with the stated purpose of becoming king of victimizing, other games are more appealing. It certainly attracts that sort of person. It may be why I play, actually. I'd say this is a slim minority of players, however. I've played team sports and chess in competition with it in mind the goal is to really stick it to the opposition. There are always more people watching these games than playing them. The big however there is, in this type of competition, your opponents are normally an equal match. The only advantage you may have you bring with you in your brain. Your goal isn't lower than theirs. You don't get any extra queens on your board to start.

Now, this view may be perfectly fine to current players. However, if you're viewing this in marketing terms in today's climate, as selling points to expand your customer base, this is red flag city. You as a businessmen are a fool if you think this view of your enterprise will allow you to find new customers. EVE is not some secret no one's heard about. EVE has a reputation, for good or ill. People in gaming are quick to inform those who don't know just what sort of game this really is. Most of this word of mouth advertising is "Keep away from EVE unless you're stupid or a glutton for punishment."

So...if we want to help CCP bring more players to EVE...find a way to overcome this impression of the game held by those who are prospective customers. And, be advised management isn't inclined to help there. Otherwise, just drop it as a subject. It's like beating your head against a brick wall. We are already customers. We're not talking about our views. We're discussing the views of customers that won't come in our door...that just pass us by.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#123 - 2016-08-18 04:18:14 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Thanks so much for that sentiment Shae

I'll get back on topic here. "We want to help ccp bring more players into eve!"
Ask them. (Who?) Those who would be the "more players" people.

I have and I'll be specific. In Lord of the Ring Online, Guild Wars 2, Uncharted Waters Online, and Star Wars the Old Republic I have in their global and regional chat functions, frequently broached the subject of playing EVE. Some of us EVE players say things a certain way that gives us away, and will trigger the question, "Hey. Do you play EVE?" To which you get the response, "Yeah. Do you?" Yeah. And then the conversation stops. It's odd. Nobody that plays EVE will really discuss it with each other even in other games. I'm supposing it's carrying forward the "trust no one" rule. And, I'm always left with wondering if this commends itself well to other players who haven't played or won't play EVE.

Some one will then ask, "What is EVE?" This is where it gets relevant to this discussion. Defining what we are. It doesn't have to be accurate. It just has to be what people believe it is. This decides if it's a draw or not. The other question is, "What's it like? I've been thinking of trying it." The responses to these two questions speak volumes, and regardless of what expertise we may try to gin up among ourselves to answer the challenge presented by the OP, we are left with this view that is shared by those who would be the people to become our "more players" we're after.

As such, there is no argument. You can have an opinion about someone else's opinion I guess. But that won't change anyone's mind and send a flood of new, paying customers EVE's way. You can vigorously assert how incorrect these impressions may be, or argue about how the person holding the view is wrong. But, if you're in business, all we're discussing here is, "Why won't this customer buy from us?" Telling a person they're philosophically incorrect won't get them into your store...or game.

So, what are these views? First and foremost is, players with a distinct time advantage over you (gear and skill) can victimize you and not only is nothing done about it, the management encourages it. I tell you. The most common response to this is, "Well. That's stupid. I'll never play that game." Now. We all know this is true. If you claim it isn't you're just knowingly wasting our time, and trying to divert the conversation - definition of a troll. People are just not inclined to pay for the experience of being mugged and robbed. Given the other gaming choices they have available, common sense dictates this isn't an option. The fact the EVE community has to argue this point interminably just makes it worse on the EVE community in the eyes of those who hold this opinion. This leads to the second opinion.

EVE players just aren't nice people. They're mean. They're dishonest. They're selfish. They're inconsiderate, and they take delight in the misery of others. (moar tears...?) We are just seen as the bad seed of the gaming world. We are seen not as outlaws but as psychos. EVE is actually seen to be the place where psychos enjoy one another's company. And, once again, nobody (given the choices available) is going to pay money for the experience of rubbing elbows with the mentally disturbed.

You get over those two impressions, you have a shot at "more members". You argue it's not true. It's a lie. They're dumb. Whatever you like, you only further enforce the impression. The key point in these conversations revolves around the view that management finding acceptable the victimizing of its customers by other customers is seriously questionable. If management has this as a policy there's no hope, and nothing has a possibility of changing, so why waste your time? Pick another option.

Nobody forces you to play EVE. Unless you want to play a game with the stated purpose of becoming king of victimizing, other games are more appealing. It certainly attracts that sort of person. It may be why I play, actually. I'd say this is a slim minority of players, however. I've played team sports and chess in competition with it in mind the goal is to really stick it to the opposition. There are always more people watching these games than playing them. The big however there is, in this type of competition, your opponents are normally an equal match. The only advantage you may have you bring with you in your brain. Your goal isn't lower than theirs. You don't get any extra queens on your board to start.

Now, this view may be perfectly fine to current players. However, if you're viewing this in marketing terms in today's climate, as selling points to expand your customer base, this is red flag city. You as a businessmen are a fool if you think this view of your enterprise will allow you to find new customers. EVE is not some secret no one's heard about. EVE has a reputation, for good or ill. People in gaming are quick to inform those who don't know just what sort of game this really is. Most of this word of mouth advertising is "Keep away from EVE unless you're stupid or a glutton for punishment."

So...if we want to help CCP bring more players to EVE...find a way to overcome this impression of the game held by those who are prospective customers. And, be advised management isn't inclined to help there. Otherwise, just drop it as a subject. It's like beating your head against a brick wall. We are already customers. We're not talking about our views. We're discussing the views of customers that won't come in our door...that just pass us by.


I like Eve very much but I agree with this post, Eve fame is awful.
Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
#124 - 2016-08-18 04:29:56 UTC
This is going to be fun...

Serene Repose wrote:
So, what are these views? ...... This leads to the second opinion.


First, dont ever become a salesperson, because you will starve to death. You are selling the game as victim and portraying a victim mentality. You are basically telling people what its like to be a sheep in eve rather than the wolf. It is also inaccurate.

I have a character that has 3-5 mil sp. He flies a gila and rattlesnake. He is trained specifically to fly those ships and he flies them as effectively as my main/alts with 20-30 times more SP. In eve skill points only matter to a degree. Because you only use a set amount of skill points in anyone activity. If im flying a rattlesnake for example my skills in light missiles, lasers, rails, t3 cruisers, warp disruptors, jump freighters, industrials, covert ops, etc do not matter and thus most of my skill points dont even apply. Second, You can go from 500k SP to 500 mil SP as fast as you can use skill injectors and apply skill points.

The eve community doesnt argue this point. Bears from other games, that are here for all of 5 minutes start crying about the game and want to make drastic overhauls to fit their playstyle, instead of learning to play the game as is. Or even worse they have been here for years and rather whine about something than change their behavior ever so slightly to completely avoid the problem. How is it i havent died in PVE in nearly 2 years but these bears seem to die left and right from what they say? I mean i live in null sec, I rat 2 jumps from an enemy stronghold, I run through lowsec doing sites, and i do all sorts of things in high sec usually with wardecs. How is it i manage this yet these other people cannot? Situation awareness and i made an effort to learn game mechanics.


Serene Repose wrote:
EVE players just aren't nice people. ......., nobody (given the choices available) is going to pay money for the experience of rubbing elbows with the mentally disturbed.
Wow, selling definitely is not your strong point. Please stop trying to sell Eve.

Its funny that the people you talk to in other games have this impression of Eve players, because the people i talk to in other games dont really have the same feeling about eve players. They are mostly neutral or if they played it before they didnt like Eve because of "X" and that isnt because someone ganked them, scammed them, or baited them. Instead it was because eve is "to slow paced" , " to complex to learn", " doesnt have any direction" , " isnt the type of game i thought it would be" IE they didnt like the sandbox aspect of it. or other various things that really have nothing to do with the players themselves.

Oddly enough Eve players are far more mature and reasonable than those droves pre teens and young teens that play other games and think they are all that and a bag of Doritos. In fact that is one reason why i prefer eve is because the player base is generally more mature than games like the ones you referenced.

Methinks they have that impression of eve players because thats YOUR impression of eve players and thats the impression of eve players you are pushing. You are projecting your own view of eve players onto other people which gives them the impression that is what eve players are like. And eve players are like that...in your head but not in reality.

Serene Repose wrote:
The rest of your post
Eve is a niche game for niche players. CCP doesnt pretend to want to cater to the masses and we dont pretend to want a game that caters to the masses. Eve as it is, is what sets it apart from other games. We dont want it to be like other games. If we wanted that style of gaming, we would play those games. We play eve because of what it is, not because of what we hope it might be some day in the future.

You seem to think eve has a bad reputation. Eve from my perspective has a good reputation. It also has good reviews and has won quite a few awards.

Eve isnt doing as well as it was because the market that EVE is part of isnt doing as well as it was. That market shrunk as mobile games have stolen a lot of players. Fewer people are playing games on PCs and more are playing games on their smartphones. Eve actually weathered the downturn better than its mark.

Also you basically implied in your post " If you dont agree with me, then you are wrong and a troll". I can tell you from your post that you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. If there needs to be a solution. I would personally focus on retaining players that try the game rather than trying to get a lot more people to try the game. You have to walk before you run.
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#125 - 2016-08-18 05:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Serene Repose wrote:
Nobody that plays EVE will really discuss it with each other even in other games.


It's actually quite coincidental that you should bring this up now, while I'm actually on SWTOR myself and just got done with a very long conversation with a whole bunch of people in DK chat about the difference between a PVP focused game, and a PVE one, with many an EVE player happy to chime in about the game being one of the best PVP experiences that they have had. Not a little ironic though that the conversation was brought about by someone bragging about how 'hot ****' they are at PVP in SWTOR.

Anyway, I can say from my experience that your assertion is untrue. I have lots of conversations about EVE while playing other online games of many varieties. Please try a new premise instead of this demonstrably false one if you want to convince me that EVE's image is the problem.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Serene Repose
#126 - 2016-08-18 05:19:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Nobody that plays EVE will really discuss it with each other even in other games.


It's actually quite coincidental that you should bring this up now, while I'm actually on SWTOR myself and just got done with a very long conversation with a whole bunch of people in DK chat about the difference between a PVP focused game, and a PVE one, with many an EVE player happy to chime in about the game being one of the best PVP experiences that they have had. Not a little ironic though that the conversation was brought about by someone bragging about how 'hot ****' they are at PVP in SWTOR.

Anyway, I can say from my experience that your assertion is untrue. I have lots of conversations about EVE while playing other online games of many varieties. Please try a new premise instead of this demonstrably false one if you want to convince me that EVE's image is the problem.
You can say by one anecdotal experience, "...the difference between a PVP focused...." against an intentional, frequent exploration of the matter in several venues..of course you can...or will...would...did. Oh, by the way. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. You're already convinced. Have a nice day!Big smile

PS What he really means is "say something else"...shhhh it's a secret.

Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
This is going to be fun...First, dont ever become a salesperson, because you will starve to death. You are selling the game as victim and portraying a victim mentality. You are basically telling people what its like to be a sheep in eve rather than the wolf. It is also inaccurate.

Pssst, guess what. I only said I asked questions. I never said I said any of this stuff. This stuff was told to me. But, as is typical you're correcting me for saying what someone else has said. Don't worry. I'm not into sales. I sure hope you aren't into anything requiring the ability to follow lines of logic. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your rather lengthy post as you obviously have trouble staying on point.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#127 - 2016-08-18 05:39:22 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Nobody that plays EVE will really discuss it with each other even in other games.


It's actually quite coincidental that you should bring this up now, while I'm actually on SWTOR myself and just got done with a very long conversation with a whole bunch of people in DK chat about the difference between a PVP focused game, and a PVE one, with many an EVE player happy to chime in about the game being one of the best PVP experiences that they have had. Not a little ironic though that the conversation was brought about by someone bragging about how 'hot ****' they are at PVP in SWTOR.

Anyway, I can say from my experience that your assertion is untrue. I have lots of conversations about EVE while playing other online games of many varieties. Please try a new premise instead of this demonstrably false one if you want to convince me that EVE's image is the problem.
You can say by one anecdotal experience, "...the difference between a PVP focused...." against an intentional, frequent exploration of the matter in several venues..of course you can...or will...would...did. Oh, by the way. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. You're already convinced. Have a nice day!Big smile

PS What he really means is "say something else"...shhhh it's a secret.

Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
This is going to be fun...First, dont ever become a salesperson, because you will starve to death. You are selling the game as victim and portraying a victim mentality. You are basically telling people what its like to be a sheep in eve rather than the wolf. It is also inaccurate.

Pssst, guess what. I only said I asked questions. I never said I said any of this stuff. This stuff was told to me. But, as is typical you're correcting me for saying what someone else has said. Don't worry. I'm not into sales. I sure hope you aren't into anything requiring the ability to follow lines of logic. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your rather lengthy post as you obviously have trouble staying on point.


No matter what you say, everytime you will write you will receive and answer from one of let's say 10 forum posters ( always them, always the same names ) telling you :

- this is a niche game

- this is a sandbox and players do content

- retention rate is better for ganked/killed/haressed/scammed players ( and it's magically proved by CCP )

- Eve players are mature

- CCP developers are happy will all above and actively encourage ganking/harassing/scamming.

So simply pick one of this answers....
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#128 - 2016-08-18 05:49:10 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
post #100



You certainly have a very negative opinion about the way other people pvp. Lets run through them:


* Null f1 Monkey = This is what parrots and noobs usually say of null pvp. Its their "excuse" for not being brave enough to live there. " Oh i dont want to be an F1 Monkey" " I want to fly my own ships my own way", etc. In reality, they are usually to scared to go to null and live there, they dont like the fact that they can be killed at any time, or they just dont want to be a team player. They want to try to solo a game that focuses on socializing and group activities.

Sometimes, they tried it but had a bad experience with a bad corp or alliance, so they now label all of null as mindless drones that do nothing but F1 and blob. Ironically, that is the only thing most people hear about when it comes to null is some alliance that blobbed another alliance and other such activities. Yet these activities make up a very small part of null life and even null pvp.

Sure some alliances blob each other. But honestly those are crap alliances. Its the only way they can take and hold space because a majority of their pilots have no ability to actually pvp. They have no choice but to bring overwhelming numbers because they generally lack the ability to be efficient in anything but 2 to 1 or better odds.

But their are many alliances that are not that way. And there is a lot that goes in null that isnt your stereotypical F1 blob. My own alliance does a lot of small gangs and roams. Some even go out solo. We sometimes gate camp. We even change our tactics, fleet comps, etc. to get enemies to engage us. We do every type of pvp in null that exist in this game. And we by far do the most pvp when compared to low/high residents in this game of all types.

So calling null pvpers F1 monkeys only shows how little you know about null life and null pvp.

* Fake Pirate/Ganker - I really do not know what constitutes a fake pirate/ganker. You are either a pirate/ganker or youre not. Does a fake pretend to be one but isnt?

A pirate is, by historical definition, a person or group that preys on weakers persons/groups. These are usually merchant vessels. They usually attack for the "booty" though some may hold a ship for ransom. They operate in areas where governments have a hard time enforcing law and order such as the high seas. Their ships can usually either outrun traditional naval vessels or overpower them.

In eve, Pirates live in lowsec. High sec pirates are not really a thing. To be defined as a pirate you need to do criminal activities but rarely if ever get caught and punished for said activities. Pirates in eve prey on passer-byes and may either engage another combat ship if they think they can win or have an exit strategy that will in most cases guarantee they leave the grid unharmed.

Gankers combine pirate activities with kamikaze runs. When you are pretty much immortal dying for a big payday or just to teach someone a lesson isnt really an issue.

Both activities are not only commonplace in Eve but in the real world as well(Except you do not respawn in a clone when you kamikaze). Its human nature for the strong to prey on the weak. Flying a "faith tanked" t1 frigate with 30 billion isk in Skill injectors or plexes is just begging for someone to kill you. Just like walking through a bad neighborhood at night with a lot of shiny jewelry and a wad of money in your hand is just begging someone to rob you.

**Bittervet Gatecamps- People camp gates for different reasons. Some camp for sov defense ( do you just let random people walk into your house and grab a sandwich out of the fridge?), Some camp to catch players not paying attention. , Some camp because they dont feel like roaming for targets or want to use ships that are better suited for local fighting rather than hit and run tactics( read BC and BS) . Some gate camp for strategic and tactical purposes.

While there are exceptions to the rule, a majority of pvpers dont really care a lot about KBs. Worrying about your KB takes a lot of the fun out of PVP. I, personally would of missed out on a lot of good fights, if i though" i shouldnt do that because it might hurt my KB". People that are worried about KBs are usually self absorbed and egotistical. They have yet to figure out KB stats dont really matter. I can have a 100:1 K:L ratio but if i fly in a fleet of 100 people and blob 20-30 man fleets or i kill mostly industrials, mining ships, and t1 ships and other nonsense in my vindi/mach/etc. on a gate or if i wardec half of eve and then sit outside of a trade hub and wait for someone to undock so i can blap them that doesnt mean im good at pvp. It just means im an opportunist.

And i cant recall any pvpers in my near decade of playing this game in which they said " wait, got to check if this guy is new or not..... ok he is two years old. i can kill him. " No one checks to see if you are a new player or not. PVP goes something like this in eve:

1) Target on grid. Check.
2) Is it a valid target( IE: not blue, can i live with the consequences of attacking the target). Check.
3) Can I/we take this target? Check.
4) Is the target in an acceptable range( can we prevent from leaving or blap before they can warp)? Check.
5) Target is valid, Locking target.

At no point in this 1 second process does " Is target a newbie" enter the thought process. A majority of PVPers are impartial to how new a target is. We dont care if your 10 minutes old or 10 years old and we dont have time to check your profile. Welcome to Eve, enjoy your stay however short it may be.



I just hit the quote button but I didn't bother to read it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#129 - 2016-08-18 05:53:17 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

It may not be the exact same thing, but remember what this thread is about, right?

thats precisely why im pulling you up on it.
its not even remotely in the same ball park ,
is extremely disrespectful to those of us who may have sufferd or had someone close to us suffer and you know it.

this is a game ,
regardless of whatever qualifiers or context you use it is never acceptable to publicly take the **** out of someones real trauma by making that comparison and i am ashamed for us every time i see it.





Don't try to pull that SJW crap on me. "Somebody might get upset so you can't say that".

You want to censor me go ahead and use the report button like CODE. does.

But remember, you wanted to censor me. And what's the first avenue of someone who can't handle a debate? You know what that is.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#130 - 2016-08-18 05:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Serene Repose wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
...You might have a rationalization hamster just running in that little wheel in your head helping you justify everything you personally favor, but when it comes to what other people are going to do with their time and money, you have no power over them....
And this is why I just cut to the chase above and called them out for what they really are - a slim, unreasonable, vocal minority that go by the CODE; "The loudest voice in the room rules."

They have the one goal, so they'll misinterpret, mischaracterize, ignore everything said by the majority just to clamor their convoluted logic...more geared to prolong the discussion and drive it into the ground than to resolve anything....the actual resolution leaves them out.

It was pitiable to see management acquiesce and cater to these people. There is no doubt they'll pay for it dearly by the time it's all over...unfortunately, so will we. Then, this ilk will get what they want - to just destroy everyone else's fun if they can't have what they want - that is how CODE came into being; created in the background by a few WASP-ish people.

One of the most vocal people on this thread has actually stalked me via ingame mail. I had to block it.

They speak with forked tongues...and have gender identification issues as well.



Heh - AG spies have reported even stranger and more serious issues. I feel sorry for some of these poor devils.

EDIT: The worst part about this is that they don't care about each other. They view having a problem, if they dare share it with each other, as a form of weakness at best. They are the total opposite of the players you would find in the B4R community.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2016-08-18 06:07:39 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Nobody that plays EVE will really discuss it with each other even in other games.


It's actually quite coincidental that you should bring this up now, while I'm actually on SWTOR myself and just got done with a very long conversation with a whole bunch of people in DK chat about the difference between a PVP focused game, and a PVE one, with many an EVE player happy to chime in about the game being one of the best PVP experiences that they have had. Not a little ironic though that the conversation was brought about by someone bragging about how 'hot ****' they are at PVP in SWTOR.

Anyway, I can say from my experience that your assertion is untrue. I have lots of conversations about EVE while playing other online games of many varieties. Please try a new premise instead of this demonstrably false one if you want to convince me that EVE's image is the problem.


Yea much the same story. Even if people have a strong dislike of EVE they have always enjoyed the stories I have told about it.
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2016-08-18 07:31:02 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Why would I try to bring anyone into the game with the state it's in? (been there done that, they all left)

Yeah I'm talking about wardecs, ganking, bumping, new player experience etc.

We're talking about a new generation of gamers coming through, the "millenials" The self entitled generation of console players who now get damn near everything f2p, or a game spoon fed with the direction all laid out for them.

Console players, the ones who all have cheat codes and finish a game in days with god mode on.

Then there's these forums. If they had been this bad and showing how bad the game is weighted against new players, would I have even done the trial? I really don't know.

But there's no doubt that most reading these now will run away screaming if they were considering joining.

As for the CCP assertion that most players who die early stay, I don't buy it, never have, never will.


Thats ok we didnt want WoW players who wanted to turn our game into a handholding insta- gratification game. And im pretty sure i spend more money and bring more content to this game than all of your friends combined would of. And CCP didnt have to change a thing.



Well at least you partly proved my point about the forums, even though you added 0 to the thread.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#133 - 2016-08-18 07:41:36 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
You can say by one anecdotal experience


I stopped here because I knew you'd try this.

Your whole post was based on a premise which in and of itself was based on anecdote, your experience that you never see anyone talk about EVE in other games. So what, your anecdote reigns supreme but mine can be dismissed?

Let me tell you a secret. They can both be dismissed. I could have just dismissed your whole post as anecdote, but I chose to do it this way instead because I had a feeling you'd take the "it's fine for me to do but not you" route. It's the hallmark of a hypocrite of which you show many signs.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#134 - 2016-08-18 07:45:59 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

It may not be the exact same thing, but remember what this thread is about, right?

thats precisely why im pulling you up on it.
its not even remotely in the same ball park ,
is extremely disrespectful to those of us who may have sufferd or had someone close to us suffer and you know it.

this is a game ,
regardless of whatever qualifiers or context you use it is never acceptable to publicly take the **** out of someones real trauma by making that comparison and i am ashamed for us every time i see it.





Don't try to pull that SJW crap on me. "Somebody might get upset so you can't say that".

You want to censor me go ahead and use the report button like CODE. does.

But remember, you wanted to censor me. And what's the first avenue of someone who can't handle a debate? You know what that is.



Don't dismiss it as "SJW crap" just because you have no legitimately rational counterargument to the rational criticism of your **** analogy. No one wanted to censor you, we were just pointing out how disgusting it is for you to belittle real physical trauma by putting it in the same category as exploding space pixels. We don't have to pretend that trauma is anything but what it actually is, or change the definitions of words, or engage in any "SJW" tactics, for this to remain true. In essense, your analogy was a hollow one as a result, a meaningless one, which has no point, and as long as you're hopping around on your moral high-horse out-grouping everyone, then you'd better be damn well ready for the criticism of your own failure to practice what you ******* preach.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Serene Repose
#135 - 2016-08-18 07:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
You can say by one anecdotal experience


I stopped here because I knew you'd try this.

Your whole post was based on a premise which in and of itself was based on anecdote, your experience that you never see anyone talk about EVE in other games. So what, your anecdote reigns supreme but mine can be dismissed?

Let me tell you a secret. They can both be dismissed. I could have just dismissed your whole post as anecdote, but I chose to do it this way instead because I had a feeling you'd take the "it's fine for me to do but not you" route. It's the hallmark of a hypocrite of which you show many signs.

I'm sorry. It's not a premise. It's the "experience". I enjoy being dismissed by you. It means I'm hitting the mark I'm after. But, hypocrite? Saying things I don't do myself. Yeah. If that's all you got...you shoot blanks. Pow Pow

By the way. Do you even recall what the topic of this thread is? Dis Herzog?

See them help. See them help. Help. Help. Help.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#136 - 2016-08-18 07:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Serene Repose wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
You can say by one anecdotal experience


I stopped here because I knew you'd try this.

Your whole post was based on a premise which in and of itself was based on anecdote, your experience that you never see anyone talk about EVE in other games. So what, your anecdote reigns supreme but mine can be dismissed?

Let me tell you a secret. They can both be dismissed. I could have just dismissed your whole post as anecdote, but I chose to do it this way instead because I had a feeling you'd take the "it's fine for me to do but not you" route. It's the hallmark of a hypocrite of which you show many signs.

I'm sorry. It's not a premise. It's the "experience". I enjoy being dismissed by you. It means I'm hitting the mark I'm after. But, hypocrite? Saying things I don't do myself. Yeah. If that's all you got...you shoot blanks. Pow Pow

By the way. Do you even recall what the topic of this thread is? Dis Herzog?

See them help. See them help. Help. Help. Help.


Your asserted experience was the basis of your premise. And it's not me dismissing you, it was you dismissing you. You said it yourself, my anecdote can be dismissed. So can yours. If yours stands, then so does mine, it really is that simple. If you have a problem with that, take it up with basic logic, or at least try to learn some first.

No blanks were fired either, dear, and no, dismissing your assertions of experience is no different from dismissing mine. If your 'argument' is that my dismissal of you means you're hitting the mark, then I can do the same and say your dismissal of me means the same thing. Neither is true, of course, and I explained in no uncertain terms why your argument can be dismissed as easily as you dismissed mine. Last I checked, that's the complete opposite of 'firing blanks'.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#137 - 2016-08-18 08:00:25 UTC
An anecdote is rather pointless as you can say anything be it true or not.
Serene Repose
#138 - 2016-08-18 08:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Your asserted experience was the basis of your premise. And it's not me dismissing you, it was you dismissing you. You said it yourself, my anecdote can be dismissed. So can yours. If yours stands, then so does mine, it really is that simple. If you have a problem with that, take it up with basic logic, or at least try to learn some first.

No blanks were fired either, dear, and no, dismissing your assertions of experience is no different from dismissing mine. If your 'argument' is that my dismissal of you means you're hitting the mark, then I can do the same and say your dismissal of me means the same thing. Neither is true, of course, and I explained in no uncertain terms why your argument can be dismissed as easily as you dismissed mine. Last I checked, that's the complete opposite of 'firing blanks'.

Uh...right...I lost you at accusing me of saying things I've related I've been told. You still seem to have it in your head...but you say I lied about it all, invented it or ("premise") postulated it. However, it happened. I'm sure you not being there gave you all the information you need to say it didn't happen. That's the logic I see you using. So, this other lesson in logic...just further demonstrates what I said in the post you're having so much trouble with...and no, I don't expect you to see it. You're already convinced. This is for the benefit of others so they can see what your "side" is like. Thanks for your aid in that regard.

Keep it up. I'm loving it. Cool

Oh. Just one more thing. If all these things I've said about the actual issue at hand are false, and all these things you claim are true, then there's a flood of new memberships and this thread has no purpose which is why you've invested so much time in it and...right.

Where are all these new subs playing, again?

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#139 - 2016-08-18 08:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
- retention rate is better for ganked/killed/haressed/scammed players ( and it's magically proved by CCP )

There was nothing magic about it. This isn't Harry Potter.

Harassed is a bit of a stretch though. CCP will ban players that harass others, so harassment doesn't really fit in that list. Scamming? I haven't seen anything directly suggesting that results in higher retention, nor anyone claiming it.

CCP have put various bits of evidence out over the last couple of years that show a correlation between being blown up against your will and higher retention, both of new players who then subscribe and subscribed players who then stay around.

Just plan normal evidence I'm afraid. Magic is awesome and all, but this falls short of that.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Serene Repose
#140 - 2016-08-18 08:13:49 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
- retention rate is better for ganked/killed/haressed/scammed players ( and it's magically proved by CCP )

There was nothing magic about it. This isn't Harry Potter.

CCP have put various bits of evidence out over the last couple of years that show a correlation between being blown up against your will and higher retention, both of new players who then subscribe and subscribed players who then stay around.

Just plan normal evidence I'm afraid. Magic is awesome and all, but this falls short of that.
And of course you have a source on this load of bollux people say in this forum but ... fail to attribute. Waiting patiently. Thank you very much! Big smile

We must accommodate the idiocracy.