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So, Barge Info?
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Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#41 - 2016-08-16 16:29:14 UTC
I'm with Solecist here.

First off, the Retriver is fine. I have one and in .8 or higher a lone Catalyst could not gank it before Concord got there. If it had help to either pull Concord away or multiples, then yes, it could be ganked. However, it mines so fast that it pays for itself in HiSec in just a few hours. Ganks aren't that common folks.

Second off, Barges aren't allowed weapons. You cannot get a Hulk with offensive weapons on it for proper defense. These are large Cruisers, they should have the capacitor and high power slots to mount weapons. In the same way they separated turrets from missile launcher hardpoints, strip mining hardpoints should be a thing too. Thus a Hulk should have at least 5 high power slots, 3 rated for Strip Mining hardware, 2 rated for turrets and missiles. Yes, you could have that ship with one Strip miner and 2 turrets and 2 missles. It takes forever to skill into a Hulk, it should be a nasty ship. Yes, it should take a proper fleet to take on a mining fleet.

Having said that, mining itself needs to be interactive as I've said in other threads. AFK mining should produce very reduced yields. Thus, Asteroids and Ice should generate lower yields as they are mined. Start at 100% volume of the Mining Tool with a fresh target, then make the mining cycle go longer and longer *OR* reduce the yield of each cycle as the target deteriorates. Thus you have to keep scanning and moving around the field to get optimal yield.

Also, the rats need to be more numerous in HiSec. Don't send a couple of frigates, send a small Rat fleet: 3 Frigates, 2 Destroyers, 1 Cruiser. Make the miners fight at least NPC's. Mix it up, have a 3 Cruiser squadron visit. Make the fleets even larger if the players in the system leave the combat sites laying around. Make the miners deal with combat sites or face large ratting fleets.

Until then, it's somewhat balanced now, not optimal, but balanced. I flew a Retriever for quite a while, many times traversing Uedama. It's not as bad as it's made out to be... on either side of this debate.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#42 - 2016-08-16 21:00:11 UTC
Since the new art shows 2 turrets per hull, I think you will see an even more dumbed down ship bonus system.

Each hull will get the same base stats, fittings, and skill bonuses while the 3 types of ships will get role bonuses specific to that eole. For example, skiff will get drone and hp role bonus, mack will get hold bonus, and hulk will get yield bonus.

That means skiff and mack have same yield, skiff and hulk have same hold, mack and hulk have same tank.
Solecist Project
#43 - 2016-08-16 21:21:53 UTC
Reddit has the sisi stats ...
... no, i refuse to link it. :P

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#44 - 2016-08-16 21:22:54 UTC
Caco De'mon wrote:
*hint*

kill the rats first
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I would propose that if rats are a problem you kill them with something else first then come back. The respawn timers on them are like an hour or some such.

I am guessing a lot of the people who are commenting have probably never tried fitting and mining in a barge, let alone mined in low or null sec. ...

Rats respawn around every 15 minutes or so and that isn't taking into account systems with a large number of belts where there are a lot already spawned initially. They don't just disappear and leave you alone for an hour after you've killed them.

baltec1 wrote:
No that just results in more imbalance. You don't fix an overpowered ship by buffing everything else to match it

Except the Skiff and Procurer are not overpowered and are in fact the ones in the right place. It is the covetor and retriever hulls which are poor because CCP incorrectly assumed people favoured yield and capacity.

Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Also, the rats need to be more numerous in HiSec. Don't send a couple of frigates, send a small Rat fleet: 3 Frigates, 2 Destroyers, 1 Cruiser. Make the miners fight at least NPC's. Mix it up, have a 3 Cruiser squadron visit. Make the fleets even larger if the players in the system leave the combat sites laying around. Make the miners deal with combat sites or face large ratting fleets.

I agree with this. The rats should be harder so they offer more challenging gameplay, and then barges should be buffed respectively so they can meet the new challenge. I'd like to see mining more akin to running a mission, and a barge more akin to a mission running ship. Sure you could optimise your fit and still fit a completely passive tank and AFK it, although this should reduce your yield and ability due to sacrificing fitting for the extra shield modules.

For a start, if I was balancing I would give all the T1 barges 25MB bandwidth with 10% bonus to drone HP, damage, and mining yield, and T2 barges 50MB bandwidth again with the 10% bonus to drone HP, damage, and mining yield.

Drones should be an essential part of the barge's defence and contribute toward it's total yield. That way fitting would be a lot more interesting as to get max yield you'd need to make real sacrifices by maximising the amount of drone mods at the expense of EHP.

The good drone bay is one of the reasons the procurer and skiff are so popular as people can kill the rats at the same time as mining earning them a little extra ISK and perhaps get a nice faction drop at the same time. The procurer / skiff is actually the only barge that is semi interesting to use in a belt. And so unless you want to relegate 66.6% of the barge lineup to purely fleet operations, then all the barges should work in a similar way to the procurer / skiff but with their own twist gearing them towards EHP, ore capacity, or yield.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#45 - 2016-08-16 21:31:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Solecist Project wrote:
Reddit has the sisi stats ...
... no, i refuse to link it. :P


Well, not much of a rework after all if Sisi is anything to go by. I don't expect the procuer / skiff to lose it's crown over such changes.

The covetor / hulk seems to have been given a decent boost to it's yield though with the addition of the extra low slot. It is still going to be a fleet mining ship though. And the retriever is still going to be the AFK easy gank target barge. They might come more into their own though with the release of the new mining command ships.
Solecist Project
#46 - 2016-08-16 21:36:33 UTC
Oh boy, this will be a mining expansion and prices will never be the same again.

SELL SELL SELL!!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2016-08-16 21:41:43 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:

Except the Skiff and Procurer are not overpowered and are in fact the ones in the right place. It is the covetor and retriever hulls which are poor because CCP incorrectly assumed people favoured yield and capacity.


They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack.
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#48 - 2016-08-16 21:58:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

Except the Skiff and Procurer are not overpowered and are in fact the ones in the right place. It is the covetor and retriever hulls which are poor because CCP incorrectly assumed people favoured yield and capacity.


They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack.
No longer.

  • Procurer / Skiff mining capabilities will remain unchanged
  • Retrievers / Mackinaws will get a 25% boost (to +36.25% / +25% over Procurer / Skiff)
  • Covetors / Hulks will get a 7.65% boost (to +45.33% / +41.18% over Procurer / Skiff).

(Presuming max-yield fit, since the Covetor and Hulk are getting 3rd low slots... so without any MLUs, the yield of those two will actually go *down* a bit)

Until all are free...
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#49 - 2016-08-16 22:03:26 UTC
Looked at the stats and I'm not sure what CCP is thinking here.

It seems to make a smaller choice window of ships (less specialized) but a little more granular choice in the actual build of the ship. Giving them all two high slots is really the clincher to the deal. An extra low? Either going to yield or to tank.

Overall, meh. Doesn't address the issues with mining at all or make it more fun. It simplifies it to some extent but makes some ships basically irrelevant. If they were going to do this, I'd have dropped out the dual high slot class (retriever, mackinaw) and kept the Procurer/Skiff and Covetor/Hulk. Being in the middle of the extremes is milquetoast.

Not much to see here folks... move along...

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Solecist Project
#50 - 2016-08-16 22:07:25 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Looked at the stats and I'm not sure what CCP is thinking here.

It seems to make a smaller choice window of ships (less specialized) but a little more granular choice in the actual build of the ship. Giving them all two high slots is really the clincher to the deal. An extra low? Either going to yield or to tank.

Overall, meh. Doesn't address the issues with mining at all or make it more fun. It simplifies it to some extent but makes some ships basically irrelevant. If they were going to do this, I'd have dropped out the dual high slot class (retriever, mackinaw) and kept the Procurer/Skiff and Covetor/Hulk. Being in the middle of the extremes is milquetoast.

Not much to see here folks... move along...

Would you like mining to be more fun?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2016-08-16 22:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
I'm messing around with the hulk right now and it suffers from the same issues. Skiff also retains its silly high base EHP. It seems the mack is now the high yield ship while the hulk mines faster. The skiff still gets three times the base tank of the hulk, the covetor is still screwed with its one mid and three lows as is the retriver. Procurer is the only good choice in the barge lineup as it has a little over 4x the tank with nothing fitted and 4 mids and two lows to play with.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#52 - 2016-08-16 22:53:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I'm messing around with the hulk right now and it suffers from the same issues. Skiff also retains its silly high base EHP. It seems the mack is now the high yield ship while the hulk mines faster. The skiff still gets three times the base tank of the hulk, the covetor is still screwed with its one mid and three lows as is the retriver. Procurer is the only good choice in the barge lineup as it has a little over 4x the tank with nothing fitted and 4 mids and two lows to play with.

I cant believe I am about to agree with you... but +1
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#53 - 2016-08-16 23:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
baltec1 wrote:
They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack.
baltec1 wrote:
They have battleship level tanks

That bit is fine...

Their offensive capability is limited, they are as slow as heck, and yield and capacity are at the low end of the barge line up. Why should they not have decent EHP... If it is simply so they can be ganked in high sec, then sorry but ship balance shouldn't be determined by high sec gankers.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2016-08-16 23:09:06 UTC
Ok having messed around with them all:


Hulk and Mack can only work with a CPU mod but fitting one means the skiff is simply a better ship.

The covetor and retriever have no fitting options at all, the procurer is the only option.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#55 - 2016-08-16 23:19:27 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

Except the Skiff and Procurer are not overpowered and are in fact the ones in the right place. It is the covetor and retriever hulls which are poor because CCP incorrectly assumed people favoured yield and capacity.


They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack.
No longer.

  • Procurer / Skiff mining capabilities will remain unchanged
  • Retrievers / Mackinaws will get a 25% boost (to +36.25% / +25% over Procurer / Skiff)
  • Covetors / Hulks will get a 7.65% boost (to +45.33% / +41.18% over Procurer / Skiff).

(Presuming max-yield fit, since the Covetor and Hulk are getting 3rd low slots... so without any MLUs, the yield of those two will actually go *down* a bit)

So it seems as though retriever is getting a big boost making it a tough choice between the procurer in areas in which a high level of defense isn't required.

The covetor is still the fleet mining ship but pretty poor for smaller operations.

The procurer seems to have stayed about the same.

Yep so nothing much changed except the retriever / mack is slighly more desirable over the procurer / skiff now for smaller operations. In a 3 man group it may be worth swapping a procurer for dedicated defense and bringing two retrievers.

I would need to crunch the numbers but at a glance it seems like CCP has just accentuated the pre-existing bonuses on the retriever, and covetor to a lesser degree.

baltec1 wrote:
Ok having messed around with them all:

Hulk and Mack can only work with a CPU mod but fitting one means the skiff is simply a better ship.

The covetor and retriever have no fitting options at all, the procurer is the only option.

Is this including processor overclocking unit rigs?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2016-08-16 23:20:43 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They have battleship level tanks right out of the box and come close to matching the high yield ships. They are very out of whack.
baltec1 wrote:
They have battleship level tanks

That bit is fine...

Their offensive capability is limited, they are as slow as heck, and yield and capacity are at the low end of the barge line up. Why should they not have decent EHP... If it is simply so they can be ganked in high sec, then sorry but ship balance shouldn't be determined by high sec gankers.


The skiff and procurer on tranq are the T3C of the mining world. Too much of everything in one package. They should be around the same base hp as the other barges and have bonuses to combat. As I said, the barges need more fitting slots and CPU/PG so you can fit them like you fit every other ship out there.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2016-08-16 23:24:06 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:

Is this including processor overclocking unit rigs?


At least one rig or one low needs a CPU mod/rig in it to actually fit it.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#58 - 2016-08-16 23:34:31 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Would you like mining to be more fun?


It should be as challenging as any other PvE style activity. Mining in HiSec should be at least as 'fun' as running an L3 mission. Lo-Null Sec, L4 missions, and WH L5 missions.

Combat-wise, if it were this way, miners could actually have a shot at defending themselves in case other players jumped them, and if the attacking players screwed up, the miners could actually win.

As it is now, if the miner is warp scrambled, it's a dead ship and only pure luck or a serious goof by the attacker will save the ship.

So, yeah, more fun, more fight. However none of this is how I would've implemented mining had I been designing this from scratch in the EVE universe.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#59 - 2016-08-16 23:36:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

Is this including processor overclocking unit rigs?


At least one rig or one low needs a CPU mod/rig in it to actually fit it.


That's not too bad then because rigs slots aren't as valuable as lows, and a T2 POU rig is good value whilst still leaving room to be able to fit 2 core defence extenders with the remaining 100 calibration or a single T2 shield rig for the T2 barges.
Sargon Matrix
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2016-08-16 23:52:36 UTC
Kueyen wrote:

No longer.

  • Procurer / Skiff mining capabilities will remain unchanged
  • Retrievers / Mackinaws will get a 25% boost (to +36.25% / +25% over Procurer / Skiff)
  • Covetors / Hulks will get a 7.65% boost (to +45.33% / +41.18% over Procurer / Skiff).

(Presuming max-yield fit, since the Covetor and Hulk are getting 3rd low slots... so without any MLUs, the yield of those two will actually go *down* a bit)


Does anybody have a link to these stats?