EVE General Discussion

I have and DO, Baltec. I randomly go to noob systems and do my damndest to give them orca and claymore boosts to try to help them out/teach them. I've spent the last couple weeks in them as I'm kinda taking a cool down from Super serious Low sec PVP.



You should try explaining fleet boosting mechanics and how much they're missing out to a brand new player.... THAT is some work.


I'm not opposed to expanding/diversifying the ORE ships, nor adding 'utility' cruisers to the Empire races. Variety is awesome. But I also have 0 expectations that if you were to try to give mining ships the same versatility of, loose example, a vexor, that they would get used for that at all. The core problem here is in attitude toward mining and high sec, not in the tools that are already available.


Industrialists have to factor transport and install costs into their build costs.... miners should also be of the mindset that they have to factor basic defense into their op shares.

From that perspective, that's fine, sensible, reasonable, etc. But there's always going to be the back swing 'You gave my ship these but now I don't have enough of this to do this with it so buff this so I can be Ubertank!' There's also the can't defend them without concord bit. They can be defended. People just are not willing to view them the same way any other fleet is viewed, for fear of profit shares. Not losing a Hulk is a major profit share. But even then, people are not able to come to terms with there will still be cases where the 'other guy' just brought more to the table to gank you.


You don't take a T3 fleet out without logi, Ewar, DPS, and an oh crap plan. Or a null/low mining fleet. High sec Mining fleets should be bound to the same rules. I honestly don't know the best way to address that basic flaw in attitude towards high sec mining. But I still hold that that is the bigger share of the problems. Not opposed to diversifying the barges/re-introducing utility cruisers, but want it to be for the right reasons, not continuous bandaging of the actual problem.

Flying logi in a combat fleet actualy involves playing the game. A logi boat in a mining fleet doesn't do anything for hours on end other than twiddle their thumbs while watching netflix. Under my idea the logi for the mining fleet is right there mining with you.

This discussion misses the fundamentally obvious point - which is that the root cause of the problem is that in Eve the resources are not scarce. Not only that, but resources should be depleted when over-extraction occurs, forcing players to identify new sources.

So, introduce scarcity and players will fight over their access. Otherwise it's just stupid suggestions such as mining mini-games.

Nah, I flew logi all the time. Was usually logi FC/Anchor.


You can do the research if you want.

So your suggestion has no merit in hisec, because that is how the mechanics work, its exactly the same with loot scopping through a DST, it is how the mechanics are. This means that CCP has to leave one ship that can be tanked to its current level.

What you have suggested is perfectly fine for null sec and even low sec, but it does not work for hisec where the only metric that counts is surviving the massed firepower of multiple destroyers until CONCORD comes. The Skiffs current tank is right, period.

You do if you're sitting on a titan, or just warping gate to gate because there are no fights.



And that's where we disagree. Your simple solution is to change the tools that are in the game for this reason. My simple solution is to use the tools that are in the game for that reason. You want to change them so the 'smart players' have more options, I am of the opinion changing them should be a very careful thing to avoid the hazardous slope of 'you buffed it to do this but now I can't do this because you messed it up the first time so fix it.' You have already watched this happen with Freighters, and the unrelenting stream of 'nerf ganking' threads when there are already more than sufficient tools to effectively negate all but the most serious gank efforts. To you, I'm sure I'm probably appearing to want to keep them in the same cookie cutter for whatever reason. That's not the case. To me, you're indirectly perpetuating the attitude that mining fleets don't need to take steps to do things properly, as most the mining fleets, especially in high sec, won't use that buff for what you intend it for, as it's the attitude behind high sec mining in particular that is problematic.

I've within the last two weeks suggested on multiple occasions that a newbro mining corp use a logistics cruiser so they keep their covetors alive. They refused to, choosing to pursue max ore yield. Consequently, they were ganked.


It is not so simple a thing. Changing ships won't deal with the problem. It'll help a few people, but it'll be just another bad change to many other people.

Which is entirely the point. If there is nothing going on, then that person(s) isn't doing anything except BS'ing in chat. That doesn't mean you just tell the whole fleet to log out while the hunter is still looking for targets. They sit. And wait. And do nothing.





Yet here we are, still going on with nerf ganking and changing tools that work so they work better against said thing because there's not already enough options for dealing with a problem.








Which is where we come to the attitude of, again, high sec mining in particular. As an industrialist MUST calculate his transit and install costs, a mining FC must calculate her defense cost. The logistics guys would be part of the cuts, as their job is to make sure no hulks are harmed in the making of this profit share.








It would very likely be taken as a bad change because now you have slots and fitting, but not enough to fit for max tank/yield because again, the attitude behind mining is it's not required to take those same steps and deal with some of the same problems that every other fleet must deal with, from the varied roles for 'what if' to the down time as your specific job is not required 100% of the time. Again, you have witnessed this personally with the freighter low slots. 'Yay I have low slots, but I don't have enough CPU to fit anything in them, wtf were you doing CCP.'

Logi does not have a reward unless they are given one. They often miss out on kill mails, are often the first ones primaried, and often have the hardest job of the entire fleet. Not much reward....

Yes, something does have to change. But just changing ships won't change what needs to change.










Miners get the shaft predominately due to bad or ignorant decisions, both from young and old players alike. NOT because they don't have the means to deal with them.








A barge with logi capabilities is not necessarily going to be fit to do that logi thing. Just because you give a barge the option, does not mean it will be used. Miners have had the option of using links and logi for years now, but choose not to. Precedent is that they will not. A barge that isn't doing its 'job' of logi and loses another barge is costing more than a logi cruiser that always does it's job of logi and saves a barge from being ganked.








Ignoring them doesn't work. Because it keeps going on and on and on and on until CCP makes a change, and its a bad one, and now we're here debating on why it's broken to begin with.





If I had reason to believe that changing barges to do that job like you suggest WOULD be used for that job, I'd be right there with ya. But I absolutely do not. I am completely convinced it will be completely ignored, as have all the other tools for protecting a mining fleet. I would LIKE to see utility cruisers come back. The old exeq was awesome. I would like to see more diverse ORE ships. But I'm not at all in a hurry to just throw another change at a problem without addressing the problem.

Again, I invite you to do the research.





Again, the tools have existed. Miners have chosen not to use them. Why is it going to change just because you make the tools shinier?








The covetor is the one in worst shape. But even it is still usable with a few basic precautions. Again, with the caveat that there are always gonna be times the other guy just had a bigger stick, and that's Eve.







Not really sure how you came to that. I'm going to guess you're going off the presumption that I'm suggesting people won't refit them after a change. My response to that is some might. But again, the precedent is far and away, miners choose NOT to use tools that are available. No need to start with the attacks.








No, we shouldn't just throw more shiny at it because people aren't doing basic things to ensure a margin of some sort of security. Because again, it will have the snowball effect we've seen with every other change to mining barges and ganking in that now its messed up for this reason and it's not good enough so has to be better. Making them versatile platforms with HAC sized tanks and bigger bays and drone bays and more slots and fittings doesn't specifically fix them. It just makes them different.





EDIT: Meh, I guess at the end of the day, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You see it as a tools problem, I see it as a people problem. That's not to say I do not see some ways the tools could be better and you do not see some ways the people could be better. But we're clearly not going to agree on this, and I really don't want this discussion to devolve into something else because I've alot of respect for you Baltec, even though you were a goon and are now in PL. lol. So, I'm gonna drop it. I've said my piece, shared my opinion, and respect yours.