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Every year, there are less users playing, why??

First post
Author
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1801 - 2016-09-30 09:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
March rabbit wrote:
Even in your example B is hardly a good argument about A. Let's talk math:

I never claimed it was. Just correcting your mistake.

As for maths, post some and we can discuss it objectively. Not a preconceived, poorly defined construct. Something factual.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Arcelian
0nus
#1802 - 2016-09-30 09:11:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Arcelian wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
This thread can get to 100 pages, we just have to believe.


And yet nothing new will have been said, at all. Its the same sides having the same arguments in the same ways just like every other time this subject has come up.


One side does have an ever growing body of evidence to back them up though.


I really wonder where CCP gets it's data from. If it's just from the "Reason for unsubscribing" drop down box, I feel that data is flawed. Because of pride.

"Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Awesome!" * re sub*


I just don't see that happening.



Maybe you have heard of the old adage, don't put all your eggs in one basket?

Seriously stop being imprudent. Once you are imprudent and somebody notices they will take advantage of it.

Stop blaming the game and look to your own decisions and behavior. You lost everything because you screwed up.


I've been around since 2008, I make billions per day, I can afford to be imprudent if I so choose.

And what you said had nothing at all to do with my post.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1803 - 2016-09-30 09:16:11 UTC
Arcelian wrote:
I make billions per day,...

Wallet transaction screenshot or it's BS.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Arcelian
0nus
#1804 - 2016-09-30 09:19:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Arcelian wrote:



If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise.


CCP have removed a large amount of pvp from EVE, mostly in highsec. Its no coincidence that as safety has gone up the retention has gone down. You can't remove a large body of content from a game and not expect subs to go down.


I agree with this. Things like the watch list removal, in my opinion, were a huge step backward.

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but other than that what has been removed from high sec pvp? You can still war dec, hell you can still can flip afaik, just no one can mines anymore. Ninja salvaging did get removed IIRC, not sure why. Ganking is more prevalent now with code and what not than it was ever in the past.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1805 - 2016-09-30 09:37:02 UTC
Arcelian wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Arcelian wrote:



If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise.


CCP have removed a large amount of pvp from EVE, mostly in highsec. Its no coincidence that as safety has gone up the retention has gone down. You can't remove a large body of content from a game and not expect subs to go down.


I agree with this. Things like the watch list removal, in my opinion, were a huge step backward.

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but other than that what has been removed from high sec pvp? You can still war dec, hell you can still can flip afaik, just no one can mines anymore. Ninja salvaging did get removed IIRC, not sure why. Ganking is more prevalent now with code and what not than it was ever in the past.



Ganking is at a record low. The only miner gankers these days is code, a terrorist organisation than only exists so long as people keep on donating money to them. We used to have an entire pirate industry that revolved around the targeting of profitable to gank miners. CCP hit ganking with so many nerfs over the years that profitable ganking of miners became impossible. This resulted in not only the death of mining piracy but also in the death of the mining interdictions and hulkageddon events. We have a situation where ganks are now done randomly by just one organisation so there is no reward for fitting and piloting your miner well.

This is something the grr ganker mob simply cannot understand. Their nerfs has resulted in not just content being removed from gankers but also content being removed from the miners too. You don't see miners grouping together like they used to, they don't talk to each other like the used to, they don't get involved with the wider community like they used to, simply because they have no need to. They play alone, face no challenge and most of them quit because it is boring.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1806 - 2016-09-30 09:43:24 UTC
I didn't read the myriad posts as I can only say why my own interest dropped. The game moved away from one of the main reasons I like games, that being character development. Now you can just buy all the SP you want (limited only by available finances). This doesn't matter to many people but it did matter to me.

Alongside that one of the posts on the first page pointed out that as you have less time EvE becomes less tenable. Now that you can just buy SP back there is no incentive for players to keep accounts subbed if they won't log in more than a few times a month. The cost of the sub isn't that high in real terms (probably 5 cappucinos a month and I am not going to scare my self with how low a % that is of total consumption :D ). However if you can't log in it is now simply dead money.

Not sure whether the Alpha/Omega clones will help so much with this. Alpha clones may work for players happy to go into low sec/faction warfare in cheap ships but longer term players will be unhappy with the limits they present. Perhaps a better choice would be a lower sub price (25%?) that allows you to fly a designated favourite ship with all your skills on a main character only. This character would have no running training queue, but all skills available (may need to be limited to combat ships to avoid cheap farming).

It's a tricky one, but as another post pointed out MMO use is dropping gradually anyway, it may just be a part of the natural cycle of the game.

In terms of PvP vs PvE I think there's nothing wrong with the current balance in general. The drop in PvP in hisec is most likely because those who don't want to PvP will live there. I have no time for people complaining about it when they are ganked/wardec'd since that is a known part of the game. However what may help bring in more players is to introduce varied PvE mechanics to bring in more players who like this side of the game.

One idea could be a geopolitical aspect, a strategy style side to the game where players can become provincial, state and eventually planetary governers. This would have no problem being tied into the main EvE space game as the combat system would not be involved. Better control and a happier populace would improve the yields of PI for the mudhugging baseliners...sorry, I mean politcal classes. The political groups would need to hire capsuleers to perform spaceborn ops for them from time to time to tie the games together.

Just an idea on a way to bring in another game demographic, which may lead to some of them bleeding into the main game too.

Waffle over...as you were people...
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#1807 - 2016-09-30 13:54:22 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes.

I think that's a little bit the reverse of the normal argument.

It normally goes something like this:

Post A: Ganking is killing Eve (and all the various versions of that theme)
Post B: Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more common.etc.

Post B is rarely used as justification for why numbers are now falling. It's mostly used as a counter to carebear whiners who claim ganking is the reason for the decline, ignoring all other changes.

Even in your example B is hardly a good argument about A. Let's talk math:
F = X - Y

Here:
F - is growth of population
X - some 'positive' factors
Y - ganking

If X is bigger than Y then we have positive result.
If Y is bigger than X then we have negative result.

Now we can translate your posts to this system:
Post A: F gets lower because of Y.
Post B: in past F was positive and Y was bigger.

Is post A correct? Yes, the bigger gets Y the lower gets F if X does not change.
Is post B correct? Yes, for any value of Y we can find X so F will be bigger than currently.
Does post B counters A? Nope. As long as X is staying outside of formula we cannot connect any changes in values of Y and F.

So at the end i don't support "ganking kills Eve". And i don't support "Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more often/etc".
Former is just personal opinion. Latter is incorrect statistically.


...but, EVE was growing when ganking was easier/more common etc.

You can't maths your way around that fact, my friend. You can say correlation doesn't show causation blah blah sure, but that fact remains true, it's not "statistically incorrect" it's demonstrably true.
Andrea Skye
Rico's Roughnecks.
#1808 - 2016-09-30 14:01:38 UTC
My entire corp quit mostly over the issue of gang links ruining small/solo pvp. We had 50+ active members at our peak. Probably 2-3 of them still play.

I heard about the patch in November that is removing off grid boosting, so I re subbed early to get some isk/extra skills for when the patch comes. the patch might be too late tho, most of my old corp mates I am still in contact with, and most cant be bothered now.

Few of us are returning in November however. We will see how that goes.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1809 - 2016-09-30 17:43:48 UTC
Arcelian wrote:


I've been around since 2008, I make billions per day, I can afford to be imprudent if I so choose.

And what you said had nothing at all to do with my post.


Good for you...but you did point to people "loosing everything" and thus not keeping their sub going.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1810 - 2016-09-30 17:52:25 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes.

I think that's a little bit the reverse of the normal argument.

It normally goes something like this:

Post A: Ganking is killing Eve (and all the various versions of that theme)
Post B: Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more common.etc.

Post B is rarely used as justification for why numbers are now falling. It's mostly used as a counter to carebear whiners who claim ganking is the reason for the decline, ignoring all other changes.

Even in your example B is hardly a good argument about A. Let's talk math:
F = X - Y

Here:
F - is growth of population
X - some 'positive' factors
Y - ganking

If X is bigger than Y then we have positive result.
If Y is bigger than X then we have negative result.

Now we can translate your posts to this system:
Post A: F gets lower because of Y.
Post B: in past F was positive and Y was bigger.

Is post A correct? Yes, the bigger gets Y the lower gets F if X does not change.
Is post B correct? Yes, for any value of Y we can find X so F will be bigger than currently.
Does post B counters A? Nope. As long as X is staying outside of formula we cannot connect any changes in values of Y and F.

So at the end i don't support "ganking kills Eve". And i don't support "Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more often/etc".
Former is just personal opinion. Latter is incorrect statistically.


I'm sorry this "math" is pure unadulterated bullshit.

It is bullshit because you have assumed that which trying to prove is true.

Your "math" could just as easily be:

F = X + Y - Z

Where Z is some factor or factors that result in players leaving the game. If nerfs to ganking reduces Y and X and Z are the same, then it is possible that F is negative. In fact, what you'd want to look at is something more along the lines of:

F = a*X + b*Y + d*Z

And you'd let the data determine the size and sign of the coefficients (a,b,d). You could do this with a linear regression model, in theory. The big problem is appropriate data.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#1811 - 2016-09-30 18:26:29 UTC
I'm going to ignore the ganking vs non-ganking thing for a minute and suggest something else.

In the past few years open world/sandbox survival games have exploded. Many people play EVE not necessarily for PvP, but simply because they love open world sandbox environments. Now with a lot of options beyond just EVE, I think a decent chunk of people are simply playing other games because they are available.

I'm still playing, but I'm down a few accounts from what I had 3-4 years ago. I find myself logging into subnautica, ARK survival, empyrion gallactic, etc. Years ago when I didn't feel like PvP-ing, I would still log into EVE and be the mouse in the game of cat and mouse. Now there are a lot of other options in terms of sandboxes to play in when I feel like a chill, relaxing night and not the heart pounding PvP experience.
Arcelian
0nus
#1812 - 2016-09-30 20:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcelian
baltec1 wrote:
Arcelian wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Arcelian wrote:



If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise.


CCP have removed a large amount of pvp from EVE, mostly in highsec. Its no coincidence that as safety has gone up the retention has gone down. You can't remove a large body of content from a game and not expect subs to go down.


I agree with this. Things like the watch list removal, in my opinion, were a huge step backward.

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but other than that what has been removed from high sec pvp? You can still war dec, hell you can still can flip afaik, just no one can mines anymore. Ninja salvaging did get removed IIRC, not sure why. Ganking is more prevalent now with code and what not than it was ever in the past.



Ganking is at a record low. The only miner gankers these days is code, a terrorist organisation than only exists so long as people keep on donating money to them. We used to have an entire pirate industry that revolved around the targeting of profitable to gank miners. CCP hit ganking with so many nerfs over the years that profitable ganking of miners became impossible. This resulted in not only the death of mining piracy but also in the death of the mining interdictions and hulkageddon events. We have a situation where ganks are now done randomly by just one organisation so there is no reward for fitting and piloting your miner well.

This is something the grr ganker mob simply cannot understand. Their nerfs has resulted in not just content being removed from gankers but also content being removed from the miners too. You don't see miners grouping together like they used to, they don't talk to each other like the used to, they don't get involved with the wider community like they used to, simply because they have no need to. They play alone, face no challenge and most of them quit because it is boring.



This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad.

I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it.

Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? P
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1813 - 2016-09-30 20:59:19 UTC
Arcelian wrote:


This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad.

I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it.

Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? P


NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#1814 - 2016-09-30 21:09:02 UTC
According to the csm minutes the npe is getting a bit of work soon™.
I'll believe it when I see and hate it on sisi
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1815 - 2016-09-30 21:20:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Arcelian wrote:


This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad.

I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it.

Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? P


NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does.


Pretty much this. HS is boring aside from ganking freighters or camping trade hubs. Find an out of the way system that suits your needs and you'll rarely be war decced and if you are because you showed up in Jita and were part of a mass war deccing...nobody will come looking for you.

As for the idea of giving new players a stack of ships and a monetary incentive....interesting idea. Problem is I could see this being abused. Start an account, get the 50 million, transfer to an alt, rinse and repeat. I suppose you could make it a bannable offense to do this and then biomass the character for a given amount of time or something like that.

But I like the idea...and incentive to get your ship blown up by another capsuleer--i.e. an incentive to PvP (a temporary one). Plus with the additional ISK in their wallet future losses will not be as annoying.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Johnn Silver
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1816 - 2016-09-30 23:07:52 UTC
Think this is a problem for most MMOs these days, eves fall in players is not that bad in percentage to how many players playing it.
Think that's because of the universe itself, this game is the only mmo out there that has a ingame mechanic and world plus graphics that fits perfectly for the mmo term. The reason it's so hard to catch new players are because of the skill training time. It's custom in this genre of game that you can max LvL a char in 2 months, maybe shorter, don't really know never cared to try for more than a week in other popular mmos. And compared to this game skill training, the only thing to say is thanks blizz and compaiongs for your junk and making impatient a common trait among gamers.
Arcelian
0nus
#1817 - 2016-10-01 01:28:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Arcelian wrote:


This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad.

I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it.

Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? P


NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does.


So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying?
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1818 - 2016-10-01 02:02:17 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
According to the csm minutes the npe is getting a bit of work soon™.
I'll believe it when I see and hate it on sisi

NPC logistics support should be interesting.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1819 - 2016-10-01 07:12:52 UTC
Arcelian wrote:
The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does.


So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying?[/quote]


Sure, my start with PvP was in an anti-pirate alliance that ended up in a low-sec anti-pirate coalition (yes, it was a thing).

So I was at like 10mil SP with decent inty skills fighting pirates that were +6 years older....it was a lot of fun. Pod nuking people during hulkagedon...taking pot shots at ninjar ratters and baiters flying neutral logi for PvE corps that were getting dec'd and whatnot.

There used to be a significantly more diverse eco system in high that wasn't hauling, mining, missions and incursions.

You know, content.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1820 - 2016-10-01 09:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Arcelian wrote:

So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying?


What I am saying is that a lot of content has been removed. Ganking is just one of the affected areas, we have seen some activities entirely destroyed. Ninja salvaging, jetcan piracy and targeted wardecs are now best described as extinct. Your response is exactly what I was talking about, you don't understand that by continually nerfing ganking has had a negetive effect on the very miners you want to protect.

It used to be that miner ganking was focused on profitable targets, if you fitted a good tank on your hulk you would not be ganked. Now its a case of every hulk is a target to the one organisation left doing miner ganking because every miner is now unprofitable. So while miner ganks have collapsed in number the miners are infact less safe in a hulk because the gankers that are left no longer have a reason to target specific barges, they target anyone.

Then we also have the loss of jetcan mining and the pirates jetcan flipping. You no longer see miners willing to jump into a pvp ship to fight pirates because there is no need. You also don't see them making traps for these pirates anymore because, again, due to the changes there is no need for jetcans and thus, no pirates to trap.

And then we move onto the targeted wardecs, which thanks to the removal of the watch list are all but impossible, which means miners that get a war dec are far less likely to have to defend themselves if they move around in the outskirts of highsec.

Now you will probably be thinking "Great! Miners are less likely to be killed!" and you are right, they are far far less likely to be shot at as a miner in 2016 than in 2011. But, that also means as a miner you have a fraction of the content you used to have in 2011, a fraction of the challenges, a far more boring world to play in. The end result is more people quit not only because all of the nerfs to the people who think of themselves as PvP players but also the PvE players, simply because mining is a lot more boring and a lot less social today than 5 years ago.

And this is just a small part of the content we have lost.