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So, why you didn't consider adding 10k SP bonus just for logging in? If making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity. Then killing rat for 10k SP has nothing common with real activity!

After a few days of sleep, talking with other people and especially after reading CCP Rise's post in this thread, my negative attitude towards Dailies (see post here) has cooled down and I think I can now accept what CCP would have forced on me anyways.

I now see the reasoning behind this feature as it will (hopefully) provide a better Eve for all of us by logging in more people.

I still stand to my critic from my previous post (see link above) about it a) being too powerfull and b) too simple.

Resolving b) is easy and already anounced that you will think about it: More different activites to claim the bonus SP. Please bring us more different daily activities to choose from as soon as possible. But let the players choose freely. (I hated the daily activity system in GuildWars2, where they would give you a small random selection of activities each day, so you had to do something different, but often I ended up doing stuff I didn't like, because what I liked wasn't part of the Dailies. One reason I'm in Eve now.)

Solutions for a) have been provided in my previous post: Make the amount (a bit) smaller and/or limit it to characters with active training (my personal favourite).

In the end I will ignore this feature, take the bonus whenever I happen to get if from what I wanted to do anyways and cry a little inside me whenever I log on for something that doesn't provide this bonus (like doing paperwork for my corporation).

You could always not do them if it damage your game experience that much. Your account won't get locked because you didn't kill that one rat...

I understand your goal and I agree with it. If players log in, they're much more likely to say hello in corp chat and join a random fleet, which is a win for everyone. However, unlike updating the skill queues on all my primary characters, killing a rat with every character I own will turn into a daily soul crushing activty. You don't want your players to dread logging in each day. This will go one of two ways: either skill injectors will crash in price, and I'll completely ignore the dailies as it'll not be worth my time, OR skill injectors stay at the current value I'll spend half an hour logging in 12 characters, most not even combat capable, to kill a rat and hate every second of it each day because it's 36b/year (100-200m/h) risk-free income.

Instead, I suggest every character with an active skill queue is awarded 10,000 SP for saying something in a chat channel. This has several advantages:
First of all and most importantly, every character no matter their playstyle are are able to do it without going through a lot of trouble (killing an NPC with my hauler with no combat skills is not fun).
Secondly, waving in corp / alliance / local chat is MUCH more likely to lead to more social interaction and turn the "log in for dailies" into a "join fleet and undock" than killing a random NPC.
Thirdly, players won't have to log in all their accounts three times to cycle through a bunch of characters they don't care about.

Now tell me CCP Rise why did this quote from Team Size Matters - 'Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system – training.', appear?

Either they are lying or you are lying and are therefore not to be trusted. The link for that particular blog is here - https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/.

Its still a bad idea.

More SP means I can do more things without skill requirement limitations. Being able to fly more things means I spend more isk to buy more things to then go out and in turn do more things.

More SP fuels the economy and puts more ships in space to shoot at. That said, just undocking a blapping a rat doesn't seem like a meaningful level of engagement but w/e.

So now I have to log on all my alts to do dumba$$ dailies? What about my titan alt that doesn't have access to an XL citadel b/c I'm not in a huge nullsec power bloc?

I would say, please pardon my language or whatever but... nah.

@ CCP,

This is where i give you two middle fingers or pull out my man parts and **** on your shoes.


Now, don't get me wrong, I love the fact that you are trying to figure out ways to get people to log on, Thats cool jelly beans. But, the how is what is ducked up and wrong.

Lets take this approach.
From my POV,

PVP is in a good state, lots of people logging on to fight in the war up north.

PVE is in the same state it was before i started playing EVE like 3 years ago.
-- And here you are, lets give players 10k SP for logging on and killing A rat.
-- All for the goal and purpose of getting people to log on.

HOW ABOUT YOU GIVE US SOME UPDATED CONTENT INSTEAD, SO WE WANNA LOG ON AND RUN THE NEW SITES????

You want to get players online - we need newer and updated content.
Missions,
Combat Anomalies and Sigs.
--- And your reply is, we are working on a system to make it easier to update that content. ---
--- And I say, blah blah blah ducking blah. I've seen that reply for like two years.

The way I would update the PVE content - (this takes from many of the former post, plus adds new stuff related to this forum topic)

1: NPC Missions need to be updated to a "cosmic anomaly/sig" like window. Where you can explore space and see where there are missions for you without needed to dock up. Thus keeping players in space more as they can run more missions for multiple NPC groups as the missions are provided in a window that doesn't require you to dock.

2: Combat sites need to be updated. The smaller sites need to be about what they are, with the bigger sites, expanding over the full grid. The same with expeditions and escalations. --- It is in this place that you could reward SP as a bonus (up to a limited amount each week), this SP would by the lore come from SOCT, as their reward for helping kill pirate factions.
-- By pulling the SP as a reward for completing this sites. PVE players can get their reward, while PVPs could steal the reward by killing the PVEer and finishing the site.

There are so many better options to get people to log on and stay logged on then...

Aura "Hello player. Thank you for logging in, now go kill a rat and get 10k SP. See you tomorrow"

The skillque was only a "daily" if we set a skill that ended in 24 hours or less. Most of the time our skills had a much longer duration meaning we only changed them every so often, perhaps once per month.

AND The skillque was universal, killing NPCs is not. if you were an industry toon, you weren't forced to undock and risk your implants doing an activity you didn't want to do.

I can't believe you think that undocking and killing an NPC is "meaningful" gameplay. It's not.

You didn't address the "grind for skills" dynamic.

Last, it's great that you gave us more insight into the project, which should have happened in your first post. But you took a LOT of feedback and changed....nothing. Fine, but you didn't tell us anything from 50+ pages of feedback that you were willing to look into changing. You just told us how we are wrong. Why solicit our feedback in the first place? This is the old way of CCP doing things, (post a feature, gather feedback, tell players how they are wrong rather than being collaborative) and it's extremely frustrating.

The skill queue was not a daily incentive. That's a patently absurd claim. The 24h queue was a means to avoid the 4am alarm clock skill-change logins, and it was 24h because that was all that was needed to achieve that goal. It did not in any way, shape, or form incentivise a daily login because you never had to log in daily to mange skills to begin with.

The beauty of the skill system, especially with the 24h queue, was that it wasn't a daily requirement to log in — you could do it at your leisure during the times you'd log in anyway. Of course you saw fewer logins and less activity when you removed the 24h limit. Everyone knew you would. The realisation that this happens is not reason enough to suddenly force people to log in at times when they otherwise wouldn't. Your fundamental problem is still that you are trying to bribe your way to an appearance of success rather than let people have fun when they log in, and being soured by the predictable results of the skill queue change is not an adequate reason to go completely nuts in the other direction.


The economic arguments are bunk — if many people aren't motivated by those types of rewards, then that's a good thing. It means you've scaled it properly to only target a very specific audience that needs that kind of help. For those who aren't motivated by that, other things will already motivate them to log in and do what they do to earn that cash (and orders of magnitude more). For those that aren't motivated either way, you've already lost them because you are not offering gameplay that they want — giving them SP for grinding content they've already rejected does not change this fact.

Indeed, the argument you offer why SP is a good choice is the exact reason why it must not be SP: they are simply too valuable to too many people to offer the player a valid choice between doing what they want and doing what you want. And let's be clear here: what you want is utterly and completely irrelevant. Your opinions don't matter. If you want to matter, shut the sandbox down and construct a themepark where you decide what players do.


You have completely misunderstood the point here. The most fundamental flaw with this entire idea is not the SP, it's not the dailies — it's that you are meddling with activities at all. Applying the same methodology to more activities does not solve the problem, because you're still dictating to players how they should spend their time. It just makes it worse since it will create massive imbalances in what's best described as the “action economy” of the game.

There's no need to be coy: you want to reward people for logging in. So why are you being stupid about it? Just reward people for logging in. What they do while logged in is none of your business, and trying to meddle in it just makes everything else about the idea horrible. The core conceptual lunacy of the proposal is, and will always remain, that you dictate activities rather than activity. Consequently, you are not actually promoting activity — you are promoting rote repetition that will keep people from engaging with the game.

None of the design goals you present here suggest that ratting is a sensible activity to tie the rewards to. You are not deliberately keeping it simple — you're deliberately making it stupidly complicated for some unconceivable reason. The simple solution is to reward logins. If you want to maintain a threshold level to increase the possibility that some unintended sidetracking happens, then that's fine, but that's still hellalot easier than what you're proposing. Hell, your decision to tie it to an activity actively works against that goal: “don't disturb me with [distraction], I'm farming my SP.”


New players is an excellent reason why you should stay away from SP and look more towards economic incentives. Older players will gain substantially more from an SP scheme than new players will, with all the imbalances that come with that kind of bias, but they can easily out-earn some minor income increase that would mean the world to a new player.

A feature does not need to be relevant to everyone to be successful. That's utter pigswill. A feature needs to be relevant to the target audience to be successful. You have failed to define a target audience, and have therefore accidentally targeted people that are likely not to benefit from the idea, or who will not let you reap the benefits you're after.


Right. We've all been down this road before and heard that exact line. What you mean in plain text is that you have no intention of changing this before release, and that you will ignore the predicable aftermath until it cannot be ignored an more, at which point you will try a new ill-conceived panicked solution.

Your idea is very simple (in both meanings of the word):
In order to boost your life-giving concurrent user stat, you want to…
1) give ridiculous amounts of SP…
2) to people who engage in a common activity…
3) …once a day.

A simpler way of doing what you want is to:
1) give something that can be had some other way, but perhaps not as conveniently…
2) to anyone who's logged in…
3) …for a sufficient number of minutes each week or month.

No need to balance activities; no need to set special trigger events; no need for any oddly timed action phases; no need to convince people that they should be doing something they don't enjoy; no need to make people feel they “lose out on” either rewards or on some fun activity.. Just use a stat you are already tracking, and let people play the game.