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Dev blog: Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security

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Proxay
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#161 - 2016-02-24 09:04:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

If you tile your windows in such a way that you can see the overview of an inactive window this would be functionally no different from the above, thus be an unfair advantage and be bannable.


I don't get how this isn't explicitly clear - you even highlighted it. I get what they mean, I'll reword it and see if it ticks with you.


CCP is saying that if you can see the overview from other eve clients, on another eve client, you are cheating the game.
You can have two clients open at the same time, arranged on your desktop however you'd like. But an element on one client can't be accessible without switching focus to that client in your desktop OS. This is to say, if you interact with a secondary or tertiary client that it should come to the front of your focus and fully replace the other clients you have open at the same time.

Their issue is specifically when you can interact with secondary, tertiary, and other clients in a way where they are not brought forward into focus, and you can manage several clients in a way other players cannot, without crossing a financial barrier.

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Proxay
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#162 - 2016-02-24 09:06:12 UTC
Vincent Deadus wrote:


Your missing my point, paying $$$ for ISBOXER is "apparently" now bad, but CCP have no problem with multiple monitors. So sure it stops me mining with 4 clients on 1 screen, but if I go and shell out $$$ for more screens i'm good to go.

How does that level the playing field for you?


Proxay wrote:

CCP is saying that if you can see the overview from other eve clients, on another eve client, you are cheating the game.
You can have two clients open at the same time, arranged on your desktop however you'd like. But an element on one client can't be accessible without switching focus to that client in your desktop OS. This is to say, if you interact with a secondary or tertiary client that it should come to the front of your focus and fully replace the other clients you have open at the same time.

Their issue is specifically when you can interact with secondary, tertiary, and other clients in a way where they are not brought forward into focus, and you can manage several clients in a way other players cannot, without crossing a financial barrier.

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Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#163 - 2016-02-24 09:06:58 UTC
Proxay wrote:
Vincent Deadus wrote:

So if I use the windows managment of ISBOXER (i do) I'm a bad man.

If I use EVE-O (which is free) I'm a bad man.

If I use 4 monitors thats ok.

Seriously, did you read that dev blog or did you just smash your head against the keyboard??


Maybe I play a different game to you - but I'm out there every day hunting people trying to earn my way as a honest, humble disciple of poitot.
There are systems upon systems in EVE where people grind out ISK in anoms, sigs and belts constantly. Typically running several characters at once, and using 3rd Party Tools to provide audible alerts when a hostile (me) comes along to gank/kill/fight whoever I can.
These are advantages I cannot compete with. I do not make isk in this way, if I want isk, I run incursions. I do market stuff, I kill people and re-sell whatever falls off their wreck. I don't have the motivation to join a nullsec block, shell out RL $$$$ for additional software solutions and print money all day without concern.
More than ISK - I can't kill them. It's risk-free to run several accounts in parallel without any concern because you can use these tools they're reviewing to gain this advantage, and to protect yourself from ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME.

EVE is meant to be hard. Embrace the challenge, friend.


Dude, I used to make all my isk by camping a single gate 365 days of a year and sell loot. Don't tell me that this is a mega-bear only thing. I play the game across 10 accounts, with different roles from HK to simple cynoalts, to dictors, main-pvp, recon, etc.

You still did not read the thread. Just do us the favor. Its not only about the for-pay isboxer, its also about a couple of free application that do the same thing. And others that provide a quality of life improvement.

Also, the wording is extremely poor as "unfair advantage" over someone not using it can be extended easily to stuff like Dotlan and the likes.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#164 - 2016-02-24 09:07:28 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Koenig Yazria wrote:


You obviously didn't read the whole thread until now. This is discrediting your point already.

The rest was just being edgy.



This thread is just full of people who haven't read the devblog and are presuming its saying something it isn't.

Playing multiple clients is fine, playing those clients in windowed mode is fine. Using a 3rd-party program to position those windows is fine.

Whats not ok is using 3rd-party programs to overlay elements of one client on top of another client.



Are you sure about that mate?

Quote:
We don’t know all the tools out there and what they do exactly - and frankly we don’t care. If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs.


In other words you better not even LOOK fishy and we don't care how.

It is far from unreasonable for people to be concerned about this ESPECIALLY when it's a big trumpeted announcement like this.

"Hey guys, we'd like to clarify some things" and then go on to clarify NOTHING oh and "oh and by the way we don't care why you might be flagged, if you're flagged that's a commissaring".
Proxay
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#165 - 2016-02-24 09:08:45 UTC
Koenig Yazria wrote:
Its not only about the for-pay isboxer, its also about a couple of free application that do the same thing.


You're right, the financial barrier isn't really the main thing here.
They're concerned that you're able to utilise multiple game clients while only have one game client in focus. They want you to be switching clients to manage those clients.
That's their dev blog focus.

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#166 - 2016-02-24 09:10:55 UTC
Proxay wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

If you tile your windows in such a way that you can see the overview of an inactive window this would be functionally no different from the above, thus be an unfair advantage and be bannable.


I don't get how this isn't explicitly clear - you even highlighted it. I get what they mean, I'll reword it and see if it ticks with you.


CCP is saying that if you can see the overview from other eve clients, on another eve client, you are cheating the game.
You can have two clients open at the same time, arranged on your desktop however you'd like. But an element on one client can't be accessible without switching focus to that client in your desktop OS. This is to say, if you interact with a secondary or tertiary client that it should come to the front of your focus and fully replace the other clients you have open at the same time.

Their issue is specifically when you can interact with secondary, tertiary, and other clients in a way where they are not brought forward into focus, and you can manage several clients in a way other players cannot, without crossing a financial barrier.



BZZZZZZZZT fail.

Quote:
For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows


I can get real time intel from secondary, tertiary or more monitors. From those game instances. Without switching windows.

Their very definition is confused or they are ALSO banning multiple monitors. Remember, no fucks are given about why you flag, only that you do.
Hamar Halltyr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2016-02-24 12:26:32 UTC
Because i don´t have the time to read so much here i got one question. Tell me if im right or not .
it is not okay to have an overlay on top of your main client because of real time information! but what if i have a overlay on a sceondary screen with more than 1 account is that against your ruleing ccp or not
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#168 - 2016-02-24 12:32:49 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Koenig Yazria wrote:


You obviously didn't read the whole thread until now. This is discrediting your point already.

The rest was just being edgy.



This thread is just full of people who haven't read the devblog and are presuming its saying something it isn't.

Playing multiple clients is fine, playing those clients in windowed mode is fine. Using a 3rd-party program to position those windows is fine.

Whats not ok is using 3rd-party programs to overlay elements of one client on top of another client.



Are you sure about that mate?

Quote:
We don’t know all the tools out there and what they do exactly - and frankly we don’t care. If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs.


In other words you better not even LOOK fishy and we don't care how.

It is far from unreasonable for people to be concerned about this ESPECIALLY when it's a big trumpeted announcement like this.

"Hey guys, we'd like to clarify some things" and then go on to clarify NOTHING oh and "oh and by the way we don't care why you might be flagged, if you're flagged that's a commissaring".


Yes. I'm sure.

The Eve client allows you to launch multiple instances of it. (excluding trials)
The Eve client alows you to run in windowed mode.
The Eve client allows you to change the resolution the client is displayed in.

If CCP wanted people to stop, they would remove those options from the Eve client/launcher.

Most 3rd-party programs don't actually break the EULA, its what people do with those programs that means the player has broken the EULA. So CCP are quite sensible in saying they don't care which program(/tool)s are being used, its what people are doing with them that concerns them.

If people are incapable of working out if they are breaking the EULA or not, then those people should stop using 3rd party programs whilst playing Eve.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#169 - 2016-02-24 12:49:56 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:


If CCP wanted people to stop, they would remove those options from the Eve client/launcher.

Most 3rd-party programs don't actually break the EULA, its what people do with those programs that means the player has broken the EULA. So CCP are quite sensible in saying they don't care which program(/tool)s are being used, its what people are doing with them that concerns them.

If people are incapable of working out if they are breaking the EULA or not, then those people should stop using 3rd party programs whilst playing Eve.



Sorry, that reasoning does not work.

"they would" do x is not what CCP has done for years. Many things have been implicit.
Also, CCP has changed their stance pretty radically before.

Citing the EULA does not add anything useful as it is intentionally vague and this devpost has made it even more unclear.

Another simple fact is that this game is completely unplayable without 3rd party programs and applications. In fact it relies heavily on them existing.
Asinae Antaelis
#170 - 2016-02-24 12:55:55 UTC
The contradiction here is that they design the game one way
-multi account/multi client encouraged (-> one physical player IRL, multiple avatar simultaneously IG)
-borderless windows
and now they are roughly saying "dont use those features, it can create unfair advantages!"
And they seems to have not follow Operating Systems/computer evolution that now allow multiple clients display at the same time without additionnal software...

And they are also encouraging the community to use THEIR own API to create , not plugin to the game that everyone one can access -for example by an official IG listing of whats available) but 3rd party tools that sometimes you have to pay isk to have acces to, or be part of a certains corp .

Maybe CCP should clearly redesign the base concept of the game before redacting their EULA
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#171 - 2016-02-24 13:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Archibald Thistlewaite III
Koenig Yazria wrote:



Sorry, that reasoning does not work.


There is no need for reasoning. CCP is not going to ban people for using the ingame graphical options. Remember CCP don't care what programs/tools you use its what you use them for, so using a 3rd-party program to mange the same options available in the ingame options is not an issue.

Go back a read what the devblog/EULA/ToS actually says.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#172 - 2016-02-24 13:03:27 UTC
Asinae Antaelis wrote:
The contradiction here is that they design the game one way
-multi account/multi client encouraged (-> one physical player IRL, multiple avatar simultaneously IG)
-borderless windows
and now they are roughly saying "dont use those features, it can create unfair advantages!"
And they seems to have not follow Operating Systems/computer evolution that now allow multiple clients display at the same time without additionnal software...

And they are also encouraging the community to use THEIR own API to create , not plugin to the game that everyone one can access -for example by an official IG listing of whats available) but 3rd party tools that sometimes you have to pay isk to have acces to, or be part of a certains corp .

Maybe CCP should clearly redesign the base concept of the game before redacting their EULA



Pretty much this.

Thing though is that I'm not eager at all to develop something that in 6 months may be banned because of a changed stance.
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#173 - 2016-02-24 13:05:42 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Koenig Yazria wrote:



Sorry, that reasoning does not work.


There is no need for reasoning. CCP is not going to ban people for using the ingame graphical options. Remember CCP don't care what programs/tools you use its what you use them for, so using a 3rd-party program to mange the same options available in the ingame options is not an issue.

Go back a read what the devblog/EULA/ToS actually says.


Are you playing the game exclusively with what comes "out of the box", no EFT, no Dotlan, no Siggy, etc ?
Serious Desire
Annoyance.
Darwinism.
#174 - 2016-02-24 13:07:11 UTC


Seriously??? You have this big article on security and we still can't use a special character in our passwords?

So when will EveOnline come into the 21st century and start allowing this....

Pretty frick'n lame tbh
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#175 - 2016-02-24 13:07:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Edit: I derped and said something that made no sense.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#176 - 2016-02-24 13:07:48 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Koenig Yazria wrote:



Sorry, that reasoning does not work.


There is no need for reasoning. CCP is not going to ban people for using the ingame graphical options. Remember CCP don't care what programs/tools you use its what you use them for, so using a 3rd-party program to mange the same options available in the ingame options is not an issue.

Go back a read what the devblog/EULA/ToS actually says.



Actually they don't care what flags you. Given a few monitors could easily lead to the same behaviours as the likes of eve-o preview what chance to you have?
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#177 - 2016-02-24 13:11:38 UTC
Koenig Yazria wrote:
[quote=Archibald Thistlewaite III]

Are you playing the game exclusively with what comes "out of the box", no EFT, no Dotlan, no Siggy, etc ?


No, I used EFT, Evemon(with cache scrapper turned off), Dotlan, Isboxer and Eve-preview fairly often. I'll be getting rid of Isboxer soon and I have no worries because I do not use them to break the EULA.

What difference does what 3rd-party programs I use make to anything?


User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#178 - 2016-02-24 13:17:24 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Yes. I'm sure.

The Eve client allows you to launch multiple instances of it. (excluding trials)
The Eve client alows you to run in windowed mode.
The Eve client allows you to change the resolution the client is displayed in.

If CCP wanted people to stop, they would remove those options from the Eve client/launcher.

Most 3rd-party programs don't actually break the EULA, its what people do with those programs that means the player has broken the EULA. So CCP are quite sensible in saying they don't care which program(/tool)s are being used, its what people are doing with them that concerns them.

If people are incapable of working out if they are breaking the EULA or not, then those people should stop using 3rd party programs whilst playing Eve.
OK consider this. Would you agree that using something like ISBoxer to move your overview on the same screen as your active client so you can see it while it's inactive is against the EULA? The answer to this should be "yes" since that's explicitly written on the dev blog.

So why then would you think it's not against the EULA to place your active client over your inactive client with the inactive clients overview sticking out so you can see it while it's inactive? That create the exact same situation.

Further, since CCP will be banning this behaviour based on their logs, not from seeing the clients screen, if one is banned and the other is not, how could the differentiate between the two?

This continues to be the problem with CCPs clarification of their EULA, all they do is make people feel less sure about what is actually allowed. We don't really care how they decide they want the rules, we just want them to be understandable and fairly enforced so we know where we stand.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#179 - 2016-02-24 13:19:25 UTC
Mail Lite wrote:
Just wanted to check with you about 'Pirates Little Helper'.

It is a programme were you CTRL-A CTRL+C in local and it brings it up out of game, you get little icons which show what militia they are in, whether they are known to be link toons or whether they USE link toons. It also shows how many of each corp/alliance or in local without trolling though them.

It gives you instant access to their KB, their last KB activity and what their 3 favourite ships are. It also gives the average number of pilots on all of their killmails (good for identifying gangs/bait)

Can you confirm this is something that is ok to use?


Pirate's Little Helper doesn't interface at all with Eve. It doesn't overlay the client, modify the client or interact with the client.

It takes information from the Windows clipboard (Ctrl-C put it there) and submits HTML queries to access the rest of its information.

You have nothing to worry about with PLH as far as I know. CCP couldn't ban it's use any more than they could ban the use of spreadsheet programs for industry calculations.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#180 - 2016-02-24 13:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Koenig Yazria wrote:
Are you playing the game exclusively with what comes "out of the box", no EFT, no Dotlan, no Siggy, etc ?
No, I used EFT, Evemon(with cache scrapper turned off), Dotlan, Isboxer and Eve-preview fairly often. I'll be getting rid of Isboxer soon and I have no worries because I do not use them to break the EULA.

What difference does what 3rd-party programs I use make to anything?
They give you an advantage over people not using them, and so according to this dev blog are against the rules. Before you claim they don't give you an advantage, consider why you use them. EVE-O preview specifically gives you the same ability to see inactive clients, so that will definitely be a breach.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.