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Dev blog: Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#101 - 2016-02-23 22:28:45 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future.
Hi
I like many others have the serious question about EVE-O preview. This allows you to tile previews of your active EVE windows onto another screen and clicking on the preview swaps you to the relevant window. In the past, comments on the EVE-O Preview thread from you guys has claimed this program to be completely within the rules, however based on this post, having those windows tiles there would allow you to see the status of inactive EVE clients. It certainly speeds up multiboxing, so I can see that being caught up in the whole "unfair advantage" thing as peole not using it would certainly be slower to react. In the same way though, having multiple monitors would have the same effect, as would the "task view" button in windows 10.

While you've stated here you will post replies to serious questions, this is a question that has been repeatedly asked and has never received a clear answer. People just want to be sure that if they use EVE-O Preview, they won't be suddenly banned, or if it's not OK to use, then the thread should be marked as such, CCP support of the application should be officially rescinded and the application link should be removed from the forum.

At the end of the day, we all just want to know where we stand and be sure that we can play without suddenly being banned because we've become too efficient. You claim to not be against multiboxing, but every time one of these posts comes out, it casts more doubt on people who play in that way. If you just want us to have one account each, just say that.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#102 - 2016-02-23 22:30:50 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
stg slate wrote:
ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore.
It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned.
This. The rules are kept purposely vague supposedly to stop "rule lawyering" but all it really means is that legitimate players never know when they are suddenly going to be deemed as playing unfairly just because derps can't figure out how to set hotkeys in the client and spread their alts across multiple monitors.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#103 - 2016-02-23 22:40:55 UTC
CCP
As an example, this is something that is readily achievable with EVE-O preview. Would as setup like this be against the EULA?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
A Nony Mouse
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2016-02-23 22:42:44 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:


A paywall is a paywall, and going beyond 2 monitors requires substantial investment of hardware beyond just the monitors. Of course CCP could always do the graphics cards for plex deal again P


Not that much of an investment in hardware for more screens, and I know Windows 8 or newer will support at least 4 screens: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WQYCKSS
Memphis Baas
#105 - 2016-02-23 22:42:58 UTC
That is the silliest dev blog I've seen in a while:

1. EVE is about unfair advantage in PVP, market trading, information gathering, every facet of the game portrays combat realistically not fair.

2. You're trying to encourage the development of third-party applications to help with EVE gameplay. AND at the same time DISCOURAGE it.

3.
"Aren't you getting an unfair advantage with that program?"
"Naw, man, everyone can download and use it, see? Thus it's fair, as everyone has access to it."

4.
"Aren't you getting an unfair advantage with that program?"
"Hell no, how is it fair that I'm poor and all these people are rich enough to buy skillpoints, or organized enough to band together, or able to pay a subscription," or whatever other justification we can EASILY come up with?

5.
"Isn't this illegal?"
"No, it's completely legit, I petitioned and they said go ahead and use it."
"Oh, ok."

CCP you may as well reword your policy to simply say:

- At our discretion we will ban players who abuse the EVE game systems, using our definition of abuse.
- You may petition to ask if a certain program or use of a program can be considered abuse.
- RMT is not allowed and will result in a ban.

My suggestions are:

- Assign higher priority to suggestions or requests to improve the UI or reduce the boredom of certain in-game activities (because YOU modifying the game is our only option; clearly if we try to do it via 3rd party apps we get banned).

- Set up a system for 3rd party apps to get "certified" by you.
- Set up a system to warn app developers of features that are against the EULA.
- Publish this list of certified apps that are OK to use and won't result in a ban.
A Nony Mouse
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2016-02-23 22:47:24 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:

CCP you may as well reword your policy to simply say:

- At our discretion we will ban players who abuse the EVE game systems, using our dynamic and inconsistent definition of abuse.
- You may petition to ask if a certain program or use of a program can be considered abuse.
- RMT is not allowed and will result in a ban.

FTFY
Maria Kishunuba
Doomheim
#107 - 2016-02-23 22:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Maria Kishunuba
[sarcasm]
So glad the policy don't cover hardware modifications, I really like those other monitors..

Also, can I plex for snitches on CCP FoxFour for enabling and sharing CREST hooks that gives an unfair advantage over people who don't use these hooks?

Region based market information, or the ability to change contacts etc. without even logging in.
That is some gamebreaking unfair advantages right there. I'll take a plex, thanks :) <3
[/sarcasm]
FearlessLittleToaster
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2016-02-23 22:59:09 UTC
I realize much of the feedback here is about specific programs and in my opinion they raise an excellent point about how vague this 'clarification' is. However, there is a second issue that is up in the air that is probably just as important:

Given how vague the rules are, and since the dev blog straight up says that things which are OK today could be bannable in the future, would CCP please commit to giving us some warning if they are going to outlaw a currently acceptable 3rd party app so long as it is not blatant cheating?

This was how the ISboxer changes were handed, with plenty of lead time so that people who used it could stop, and I think that really made the change less painful. My biggest fear here is that some reasonably popular and benign program is declared unfair and the auto-banhammer hits hundreds or thousands of players who have been fine for years. From the perspectives of both fairness and not annoying your customers having some kind of policy about lead time makes a lot of sense given how broad you are deliberately leaving the grey area for 3rd party stuff.

Also, for serious, please make the policy a bit more specific. I use EFT which gives me a huge advantage over somebody trying to fit using only the in game fitting wheel. I use two monitors so I don't have to tab between them which gives me an advantage over a player using just one. I use EVEMon because it saves me on tedium, whereas a player without that has to log in to check stuff. All three of these things are, by the clarification of the rules above, potentially banable offenses. Hilariously, two out of the three are also actively supported by CCP Devs. And yes, I know I am raising extreme cases but that is the point; you could do a bit better than that.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#109 - 2016-02-23 23:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Rawthorm wrote:
As a loyal customer who's been here since the beginning (Well minus the first few months!) it saddens me to have to say this, but maybe it's time you fine chaps at CCP all start to pull in the same direction?

I know CCP has never really been a professional company, and in the old days that was fine. Back then it was a small team that took pride in it's informal interactions with it's customers and as it grew took pride in it's informal way of working, but this approach clearly isn't working at scale, and hasn't been for quite some time.

Somewhere along the line it became acceptable for CCP employees to effectively troll paying customers. I wont even go into the unprofessional behavior of some CCP staff towards some of it's customers, but the recent "rule clarification" is just the latest example. I simply don't get how your own staff can use 3rd party software with impunity while leaving the sword of Damocles hanging over the rest of us paying customers heads with the effective catch all ban justification that is the 3rd party software part of the EULA. This is even more mind boggling considering that your own staff develop and promote some of this software behind Dev tags on this very forum.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that would REALLY appreciate the last 12 years not ending up a potential waste of time so if you could see your way to presenting a unified clear and professional front to us customers that would be fantastic. If that involves someone vetting your staff's actions and being nominated to be the defacto rule interpreter we can all refer to then so much the better.


Very well written post. But one thing you have missed and I cannot blame you, I just figured it out myself.

In the light of latest changes and direction CCP is taking, there will be a price list for different 3rd party software. So if you want, you can purchase "licenses". Same like with SP. No one forces you to do it, but you can. If you want to "skip" or save time simply pay. Time is money - be it for training or for any other kind of service related to their gam. "Brilliant" CCP and turning our beloved game into money milking machine.

After this, it wont take much time till gold ammo :D

P.S. CCP please do not charge for station spin counter.

Edit: Am I allowed to use G-Sync on my monitor? :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2016-02-23 23:32:58 UTC
This is absolutely the least clear clarification I have ever seen.
Memphis Baas
#111 - 2016-02-23 23:41:32 UTC
It's not just isboxer. You have an unfair advantage if you:

- use EFT or pyfa
- use evemon to plan ahead
- use any of the manufacturing or research calculators to find deals and calculate profits
- use a website or app to keep track of wormholes and create a dotlan-map the god awful w-space
- use a ship identification chart
- use voice comms
- check people's killboard resume
- have 2+ screens instead of just 1
- unfuck your overview
ivan skorzeny
Saints Among Sinners
#112 - 2016-02-23 23:41:56 UTC
So i can't use the likes of isoboxer to over lay other clients local, but i can just use windows tiled to have main screen taking up 80% of the screen and two more clients stacked behind just with there local showing? maybe not as tidy but does the same job.

Also can the overlay appear in another screen that has no client, or other empty desktop space as then its not an overlay correct?
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#113 - 2016-02-23 23:45:13 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
That is the silliest dev blog I've seen in a while:

2. You're trying to encourage the development of third-party applications to help with EVE gameplay. AND at the same time DISCOURAGE it.



The way CCP is handling this...

I feel very dumb, I used to defend them in the last year and pointed out the advantages of pretty much all the changes.
Chalithra Lathar
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#114 - 2016-02-23 23:45:14 UTC
ivan skorzeny wrote:
So i can't use the likes of isoboxer to over lay other clients local, but i can just use windows tiled to have main screen taking up 80% of the screen and two more clients stacked behind just with there local showing? maybe not as tidy but does the same job.

Also can the overlay appear in another screen that has no client, or other empty desktop space as then its not an overlay correct?


Nobody knows, and they only way they could actually police this is arbitrary at best.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#115 - 2016-02-23 23:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Anhenka wrote:
This is absolutely the least clear clarification I have ever seen.

If you don't use any third-party tools, you may be okay.

If you do, you are probably toast.

When in doubt, file a petition asking if X is okay.. If still in doubt, don't do it.
ivan skorzeny
Saints Among Sinners
#116 - 2016-02-23 23:54:36 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
This is absolutely the least clear clarification I have ever seen.

If you don't use any third-party tools, you may be okay.

If you do, you are probably toast.

When in doubt, file a petition asking if X is okay.. If still in doubt, don't do it.


But this is pretty laughable, i have 3 monitors i can reasonably fit 2 or maybe more clients each, so 6+ clients and there local not using any other tools. Yet someone with only one small monitor can't do any extra, am i breaking the rules because i have more monitors?
Emrys Alf
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2016-02-23 23:55:41 UTC
Is this new ban on programs and screen managers going to be the same as removing fleet warps?

It seems so..

Seems very knee jerk.. and not though out how far it reaches..

So what was it that caused this desperate attempt to make it fair by banning overlays?
Is ISBoxxer Banned? PLH? Where is the line?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#118 - 2016-02-23 23:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Memphis Baas wrote:
It's not just isboxer. You have an unfair advantage if you:

- use EFT or pyfa
- use evemon to plan ahead
- use any of the manufacturing or research calculators to find deals and calculate profits
- use a website or app to keep track of wormholes and create a dotlan-map the god awful w-space
- use a ship identification chart
- use voice comms
- check people's killboard resume
- have 2+ screens instead of just 1
- unfuck your overview

I have cache scraping disabled in EVEmon. It is / was enabled by default.

CCP have stated something like that cache scraping is technically against the rules, but their enforcement depends on usage, so I err on the side of paranoia by not doing it.

I'm not aware of anything API or CREST related that CCP has ever stated as a no-no, beyond overloading those services.

If it otherwise can't be done via the supplied client, I personally don't try to get around that.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2016-02-24 00:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Quote:
We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players.

​​​In short: Do NOT use any tools/applications/modifications which either modify the client in any way OR provide you any kind of unfair benefit/advantage.


What is this hypocrtitical bullshit ?

You realize that any 3rd party tool falls into this, as anyone not using them (or not creating analogous stuff themselves) is left behind at total unfair disadvantage.

You realise that for example "fast price copy" of Evernus or Elinor margin instantly falls into "you gotta get banned" territory if we used the wording above. Yes I know it's fine - but only because the author(s) actually received human reply (contrary to copy pasted eula bullshit I got, see below) in those tools' respective threads.

And the list go on - excel, google tools, isk per hour, dotlan, eveeye maps, little pirate helper, trippwire, eve-central, eft, pyfa, mogul and many, many more. You either use some of them, or you're left far behind as a disadvantaged gimp.

Saying those tools are fine in context of that section a total and utter hypocrisy. Make the ******* mind up.

And semi-offtopic related as it pissed me off to no end - a good while ago I asked your support people if "fast price copy" of Evernus is ok (I even prepared a video showing how it's used and how lightning fast price updates can be with). Over the span of weeks and replies received from 2 GMs I was left with that part of EULA quoted above, constantly copy pasted right into my face (and of course closed ticked), with no capability or interest to actually give simple binary answer:

- yes those tools are fine, or
- no those tools are not fine

A simple question asked precisely becasue of your shity eula that you can use or bend as you see fit at any time and apply it to literally anything.

And while with simple stuff your support works, that was one absolutely pathetic experience.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#120 - 2016-02-24 00:09:34 UTC
ivan skorzeny wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
This is absolutely the least clear clarification I have ever seen.

If you don't use any third-party tools, you may be okay.

If you do, you are probably toast.

When in doubt, file a petition asking if X is okay.. If still in doubt, don't do it.


But this is pretty laughable, i have 3 monitors i can reasonably fit 2 or maybe more clients each, so 6+ clients and there local not using any other tools. Yet someone with only one small monitor can't do any extra, am i breaking the rules because i have more monitors?

Are you using third-party overlays or tools to do it?

I sometimes use 4 clients, and as many as 6 clients, in windowed mode spanning two monitors, as enabled by the client and launcher. I'm personally not concerned about my usage, but I cannot state anything unequivocally; only CCP can do that.