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Dev blog: Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security

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Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#421 - 2016-02-28 03:11:18 UTC
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:

Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in.


That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it.
Hardware is not designed to run software without OS.
Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS.

So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both.


Edit:
The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it.


Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#422 - 2016-02-28 03:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Death Reactor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
See edited post above. You're too quick responding for me. P

As I was trying to say, it's all just semantics in an attempt to circumvent eula. 3rd party can be used to describe pretty much anything depending on what device or software you are considering the 1st party. Anything that runs in windows not written by microsoft is third party from the operating system. The operating system (if it's windows and microsoft didn't themselves manufacture the hardware) is considered 3rd party to the hard ware developer. If EvE is the 1st party than anything not written by CCP is 3rd party and they make it very clear that they have the leeway to determine what "3rd party" software involvement to allow and what not to allow.


Quoting myself because I simply can't edit fast enough to prevent double posting every time.
You can argue the definition all you want, I can accept the consideration of windows being 3rd party in relation to an EvE client. Fine and dandy, the eula still has the bases well and fully covered.


That leeway is simply unenforcment. Picking and choosing.


Which they quite literally reserve the right to do in the licensing agreement you agreed to when you started your account(s).


except that they have neither allowed or disallowed any specific programs within the eula The eula is what has been agreed to. and last i checked i didnt sign a eula that said windows ok, everything else no. Any alteration to the eula must be updated and reaccepted. If there was a specification of programs they must be in the eula and not some forum post that most people dont even read.


The point is they don't have to. They can't rewrite the eula and make everyone sign it again every time a new piece of software is released. No one does. The eula is very intentionally and specifically written in such a way as to leave them the leeway to make decisions when the need arises. (all eula's are) If they really wanted to they could simply ban you as soon as you do anything they don't like. Instead though they implement a warning system and provide information through sources like that devblog to provide available examples of what THEY CHOOSE to allow and not allow.

I had assumed you were aware of the fact that legal contracts like the eula are intentionally vague so as to provide leeway in future decisions when all possible scenario's cannot possibly be predicted or specifically defined. If the "specific's" of the eula are really what your entire argument has been based on then I was apparently mistaken.

Daemun of Khanid
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#423 - 2016-02-28 03:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Death Reactor wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:

Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in.


That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it.
Hardware is not designed to run software without OS.
Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS.

So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both.


Edit:
The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it.


Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system.

A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer.
I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system.
Edit:
(hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...)

If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS.

Edit 2:
a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party.

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#424 - 2016-02-28 03:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reactor
Actually they couldnt ban anyone just because they do something they dont like. As the subscription is a contract. And i disagree that they have as much leeway as you claim. This brings me back to the overlays and having real time information. They have a issue with that. By having more than one client open at any one time you have that real time information. Windows does that.

:edit Your obviously a fanboy trying to fight ccp's fight. Ive made my point yet you continue to argue with me. I feel i am correct. you feel you are correct. So be it. Lets let someone with some say have a opinion. fly safe o/
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#425 - 2016-02-28 03:35:13 UTC
Death Reactor wrote:
Actually they couldnt ban anyone just because they do something they dont like. As the subscription is a contract. And i disagree that they have as much leeway as you claim. This brings me back to the overlays and having real time information. They have a issue with that. By having more than one client open at any one time you have that real time information. Windows does that.


The eula is the contract and it doesn't matter if you agree. If you think they have to state specifically every single thing that is and isn't allowed then you are just loopy. I'm sorry, I don't intend to sound insulting but the thought process just isn't sound. If you have an issue with the wording of the eula then either don't agree to it (and don't play eve) or call your lawyer. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#426 - 2016-02-28 03:35:51 UTC
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:

Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in.


That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it.
Hardware is not designed to run software without OS.
Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS.

So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both.


Edit:
The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it.


Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system.

A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer.
I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system.
Edit:
(hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...)

If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS.

Edit 2:
a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party.


I built my computer. before i installed a operating system it was still a computer.
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#427 - 2016-02-28 03:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Death Reactor wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:

Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in.


That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it.
Hardware is not designed to run software without OS.
Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS.

So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both.


Edit:
The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it.


Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system.

A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer.
I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system.
Edit:
(hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...)

If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS.

Edit 2:
a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party.


I built my computer. before i installed a operating system it was still a computer.

I can build a computer with the equivalent of a 286 or XT , or 386 type processor.
It would not run EVE or the related graphic, however, it would be possible to patent it for me to use the right from it and fight it in court, even if I have to move out to a country that lets me use my own rights to use my own work, if the courts decide that I would unfairly damage other party, regardless of how much my rights are alienated.

If you build a new computer patented by other companies, it is still your own computer but the IP rights are the governing bodies.

Edit:
https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=build+your+own+processor&sp=CAASAggA

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#428 - 2016-02-28 03:41:36 UTC
I think this rabbit hole has officially reached china... or whatever country happens to be on the opposite side of the world from you.

Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#429 - 2016-02-28 03:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reactor
lol there you go again off topic. no one is talking about hardware rights.

edit: think he is just trolling
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#430 - 2016-02-28 03:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Death Reactor wrote:


lol there you go again off topic. no one is talking about hardware rights.

It is your own decision to state that :
1. no one was talking about hardware right.
2. that hardware rights is off topic.
3. you mentionned about OS, or whichever it was, if you are not the same entity.
4. OS runs on hardware.
5. therefore why is hardware rights (if any, or even one's own rights for that matter) off topic?

You made the inference, not me.

Of course it is perhaps out of the scope of your subject, although I am involved in IP rights with this enough to know that it is on topic.

Death Reactor wrote:
...edit: think he is just trolling

Looks like we are not fighting the same war, if you are in any war...
Unless you're just trying to throw me off as your post suggests.

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#431 - 2016-02-28 03:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reactor
Death Reactor wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:

Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in.


That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it.
Hardware is not designed to run software without OS.
Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS.

So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both.


Edit:
The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it.


Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system.

A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer.
I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system.
Edit:
(hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...)

If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS.

Edit 2:
a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party.


I built my computer. before i installed a operating system it was still a computer.


edit: to the stalker. Yes the eula is the contract. And therefore they cannot ban you because you do something they dont like. It has to be a violation of the eula specificly. And while inital discretion is theres according to the eula, once a decision has been made regarding a program it must be added to the eula and not some forum post that most players dont read and 0 players give their consent to. Cannot change the eula without a new eula and a forum post declaring new activities or programs being valid or invalid is a change in the eula. Before you could do it, now you cant= eula changed.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#432 - 2016-02-28 03:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Death Reactor wrote:

edit: to the stalker. Yes the eula is the contract. And therefore they cannot ban you because you do something they dont like. It has to be a violation of the eula specificly. And while inital discretion is theres according to the eula, once a decision has been made regarding a program it must be added to the eula and not some forum post that most players dont read and 0 players give their consent to. Cannot change the eula without a new eula and a forum post declaring new activities or programs being valid or invalid is a change in the eula. Before you could do it, now you cant= eula changed.


Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

1. "Without limiting CCP's rights or remedies, CCP may immediately, and without notice, discontinue or suspend access to the System through your Account, and any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the discontinued or suspended Account, in the event of (i) a breach of the EULA (including the Rules of Conduct) by you or any user under your Account; or (ii) unauthorized access to the System or use of the Game by you or any user under your Account."

2. “We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. For instance, the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) is not something we plan to actively police at this time. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use such third party applications or other software at your own risk.”

3. "We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." see note 2 and refer to note 1 for potential consequences.

"Our discretion" is a very important point. Doesn't matter if you think it's fair. You've got not legal ground to stand on because it's the eula you agreed to.

Edit: No where does it say they will nor is there a legal requirement for them to rewrite the eula to reflect specific situations nor does it prevent them from saying "it's ok today and you're banned for it next week... oh and then it's ok again" Their discretion means their discretion. And the fact is... it was never explicitly said that it WAS ok. Nothing has changed. All the devblog did was clarify and make public their current stance and provide guidance for anticipating their decisions. The devblog itself has no impact on the eula or any decisions made in regards to it. It's just a heads up, a favor so ppl know what to expect.

Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#433 - 2016-02-28 04:05:23 UTC
in the event of (i) a breach of the EULA""

" confers an unfair benefit to players" if a player has 10 accounts and a player has 1 account that could be considered a unfair advantage. windows provides this capability. Also since multiboxing is allowed, the player with 10 accounts should have full access to those 10 accounts much like windows provides for, with overlays you are only utizing the 10 accounts properly for which the eula allows. 10 accounts vs 1 is not a unfair advantage that is not afforded by eula. And once again. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows., you get this from windows so no unfair advantage is gained by having overlays. Its all very contradictory and needs recinded.
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#434 - 2016-02-28 04:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reactor
Edit: No where does it say they will nor is there a legal requirement for them to rewrite the eula to reflect specific situations nor does it prevent them from saying "it's ok today and you're banned for it next week... oh and then it's ok again" Their discretion means their discretion.""

There doesnt need to be a sentence requiring them to rewrite the eula when there is a change. If you could do it before under their discretion but cant now under their discretion, the eula has changed. And until a new eula is accepted the terms are under the old eula

edit: and since no new eula was put out, it is reasonable for a person to assume eula has not changed.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#435 - 2016-02-28 04:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion."

Daemun of Khanid
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#436 - 2016-02-28 04:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reactor
Daemun Khanid wrote:
You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion."


You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning.


edit: and this is part of the problem that has many upset. They keep things so vague that they never really have to explain anything or be accountable.I am not the only one upset about this. When you ask about something the answer shouldnt be "at your own risk" At my own risk is why we need a answer and a concrete eula.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#437 - 2016-02-28 04:18:45 UTC
Death Reactor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion."


You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning.


It means neither... It means they can decide on a case by case basis what to allow and what not to allow. You are seriously grasping at straws and I'm done wasting my time trying to talk any sense to the senseless. If you think you can interpret it however you want then go ahead. I'll look forward to your "I've been banned and it's not fair" post in GD.

Daemun of Khanid
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#438 - 2016-02-28 04:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Death Reactor wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:

Guess what. News for you. Everything runs on hardware, some simply need the help of windows to operate in.

Buzz Orti:
"That is not news to me, and if you can make hardware and can't make OS to run software on, you will need to hire an entity to create it or do it or run it.
Hardware is not designed to run software without OS.
Even console systems like PS3 or other have their own OS.

So, you are interpreting some of the info you mention as if to try to steal from me or try to discredit me, or both.


Edit:
The communication system is also unforgiving enough to cause blatant errors such as the omission of the quoted text from you, and make it too hard to verify how it occured and why enough to be at peace with it."

Yes everything has a operating system, except a device that does not have a operating system.No one is talking about hardware running without a operating system.

A device that does not have a operating system is not a hardware device that is considered to be a computer.
I just did talk about hwardare running or , not running rather, without an operating system.
Edit:
(hardware not hwardare, I don't refer to radar, either radar on a carrier or with dropped carrier...)

If you try to load an XT without a BIOS and OS floppy loaded to boot it, it will not run the OS.

Edit 2:
a :roll also was also added from a 3rd party, or 4th party.


I built my computer. before i installed a operating system it was still a computer.


edit: to the stalker. Yes the eula is the contract. And therefore they cannot ban you because you do something they dont like. It has to be a violation of the eula specificly. And while inital discretion is theres according to the eula, once a decision has been made regarding a program it must be added to the eula and not some forum post that most players dont read and 0 players give their consent to. Cannot change the eula without a new eula and a forum post declaring new activities or programs being valid or invalid is a change in the eula. Before you could do it, now you cant= eula changed.

That is definitely better discussed outside of the scope of this forum because that it is too easy
[Note added mid-editing due to system stalling after a fake customer entered, practically threatening to rob the place, before the store was closed at the normal time...]
...too easy to misinterpret and lead to uncontrolled conflicts (undue aggravation)...

+ quotes are all mixed up, quoting more than 5 quotes, etc...

+ ty for posting some of the legal license (imparting of legal IP right(s) within limits) text (or terms) that may be referred to in regards to subject you may have referred to.


I was going to mention something or things about bans but it would be a breach of the EULA or other terms or quote "services" end of quote, at the quoted terms for the specified sum and at the specified place and time under specific related conditions.

Nonetheless, there is a certain specific method of preferred communication , which , business wise, is the preferred recommended method of communication with CCP in regards to this.
Similarly, there are good valid grounds for such related communication or telcom not to be conducted via certain channels.

It's like replying to an email with a fax or a courrier from ancient Greece during the Olympics.

Still, if CCP bans someone in error because they need to test if they can ban attackers and what response they will have to face, it may be the part of the game that makes it avoid attacks that stalls it to run the server or other problem solving.
Who knows.?.
I was informed that it happens that bans are reversed, and which method of telcom to use, but that leaves out all relevant details which is not only confusing but can increase risks of errors.

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Death Reactor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#439 - 2016-02-28 04:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reactor
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion."


You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning.


It means neither... It means they can decide on a case by case basis what to allow and what not to allow. You are seriously grasping at straws and I'm done wasting my time trying to talk any sense to the senseless. If you think you can interpret it however you want then go ahead. I'll look forward to your "I've been banned and it's not fair" post in GD.


Sorry if you feel that debunking your ideas are grasping at straws lol. It is as i said though. I really dont see any legal reasoning for me being banned though but you wait there and stalk for me maybe just maybe one day in thet far future(however long eve lasts) when I am done with eve i might show up there just to wave bye to my haters.

edit: it was not a case by case basis. No one was banned for overlays before this. Botting, broadcasting,scripts of that sort yes. But not overlays. Discretion meant there was a blanket acceptance or at least nonaction against it. When that discretion changed to a no regarding this subject then indeed the word discretion when pertaining to overlays had changed.
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#440 - 2016-02-28 04:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Death Reactor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Death Reactor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
You seem to be missing the point in regards to the simple phrase, "in their discretion." I don't think you quite grasp that it's not only extremely vague but it's intentionally that way. The eula has not changed, their discretion has. Hence... "their discretion."


You dont seem to grasp how discretion from one eula to another can mean different things. old eula discretion ment that you could do it. New eula discretion means you cannot. Its the same word but has a different meaning.


It means neither... It means they can decide on a case by case basis what to allow and what not to allow. You are seriously grasping at straws and I'm done wasting my time trying to talk any sense to the senseless. If you think you can interpret it however you want then go ahead. I'll look forward to your "I've been banned and it's not fair" post in GD.


Sorry if you feel that debunking your ideas are grasping at straws lol. It is as i said though. I really dont see any legal reasoning for me being banned though but you wait there and stalk for me maybe just maybe one day in thet far future(however long eve lasts) when I am done with eve i might show up there just to wave bye to my haters.

edit: it was not a case by case basis. No one was banned for overlays before this. Botting, broadcasting,scripts of that sort yes. But not overlays. Discretion meant there was a blanket acceptance or at least nonaction against it. When that discretion changed to a no regarding this subject then indeed the word discretion when pertaining to overlays had changed.

Perhaps you banned me twice and I have to pay double to find out whether or not. (the whether is fixed too now!!)
Perhaps you support this kind of activity and are only trying to bait me into committing myself or be off topic or God knows what.

Perhaps, like me, you were unfairly banned 3 times already, as in 3 strikes in a baseball game.


...perhaps edit, I forgot now:
Is there a link in this thread to a post in this thread about the overlay you are refering to?

I don't know which one it is or in relation to what it is infered (or related to).

Either way, how are you posting on this forum?, and 2. you got some time off if You are gonna get a deal or other.


Edit 2:
(Again with the Arrow unwanted and not happening as supposed to and intended to , inserted code, text, icon, also not the USA 1851 Arrow cie.)

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.