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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

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Jenshae Chiroptera
#381 - 2016-02-27 05:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Reiisha wrote:
The old CCP once convinced me, and a lot of others, that EVE would become the ultimate scifi simulator. The game to create a true alternate reality, where you can do all this cool stuff, all in one world.

Right now however, we have a game which has grown stagnant, projects which have gone nowhere or may go nowhere and despite sharing the same universe are not connected at all (orbital bombardments really don't count with how little influence they have)…

I am very, very worried.
It only goes faster the further down it goes.

Less for veterans.
Not enough for credit card kids (I also mean mental lack of maturity).

It will die in the middle of transition.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#382 - 2016-02-27 09:45:26 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
It only goes faster the further down it goes.

Less for veterans.
Not enough for credit card kids (I also mean mental lack of maturity).

It will die in the middle of transition.


All that anger and bile in most of your posts. I cannot imagine how it must be using all that time, being negative. IMO it cannot be healthy. Out of curiosity why do you spend so much time complaining, instead of finding something you like to do? I really do not get that.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Payne Dakara
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#383 - 2016-02-27 11:41:52 UTC
I'm a new player 4 months old and before the injectors were introduced all I could do is sit in high sec mine or rat and wait for the next suicide ganker to come and crash my barge or mine in procurer with tank fit instead of mining fit. This way limiting the already limited amount of isk that can be made as a new player.

What injectors did for me is allowing my character to spend the isk I make in the game to skill up faster instead of spending them on ships that will be blown easy due to lack of skills. 600mil may look as a lot but if you use isk for injectors instead of plex that effectively doubles the rate at which you gain skills and also gives you access to more profitable content. At this rate I can afford to have perfect skills for any sub capital ship in less than a year without investing real money other than my subscription.

The way I see it Injectors cut the time for new players to jump from a pray to a predator.

And they for sure will not make the game less interesting for veterans since skill points do not equal brains and experience you will see lots of new players in expensive ships to make your KB look better.




Elinarien
Doomheim
#384 - 2016-02-27 14:43:11 UTC
Payne Dakara wrote:


...
The way I see it Injectors cut the time for new players to jump from a pray to a predator.
...


Regardless of the rights and wrongs of skill injectors, one doesn't need millions of skill points to become a predator. That's a state of mind if nothing else.
Joel Vaille
State War Academy
Caldari State
#385 - 2016-02-27 17:55:17 UTC
as a new player i have benefited greatly from skill injectors. i went from like 13 mil sp to about 18 mil sp by draining some account i used a long time ago when i was stupid. i have trained into ships that i wanna fly and ships that my alliance wants me to fly. because of injectors i have taken more fights, lost more ships, got more kills, flew with more people, made more acquaintances, learned an incredible amount, and obviously had a ton more fun.

the only thing i think they should change with this system is maybe posting how much sp someone has injected or their overall sp or even if they have injected at all. but if they didnt do anything like that i wouldnt care.

diminishing returns is something that has always kept this game balanced and they used it perfectly in how extractors and injectors work. i cant fathom how they could make diminishing returns make the game any more balanced between new players and the veterans.

i am hoping to bring in my brother to the game and injectors will greatly help. if he subscribes and uses my referral code id give him the plex to buy 2 injectors with and he will instantly have the sp to be viable in a few frigs in pvp.

i know this isnt really applying to what the op was complaining about and stuff but i just wanted to share my positive experience with this feature and show my support of it. i believe ccp deserves every cent they made from this and hopefully it will bring in more players and more content to the game.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#386 - 2016-02-27 19:07:51 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
It only goes faster the further down it goes.

Less for veterans.
Not enough for credit card kids (I also mean mental lack of maturity).

It will die in the middle of transition.


All that anger and bile in most of your posts. I cannot imagine how it must be using all that time, being negative. IMO it cannot be healthy. Out of curiosity why do you spend so much time complaining, instead of finding something you like to do? I really do not get that.
What time?
I post while warping, mining, waiting for fleets to form or fishing / meditating in another game.

I post at all because
- I still care.
- the core of EVE is still there.
- Fozzie's damage could be reversed.
- EVE was a great game.

They should fork the system and make a shallow little play pool server for the kids to splash around in and think they are awesome.
Can't code player brains but can make the game too brain numbing to be worth playing.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Anton Karnak
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#387 - 2016-02-27 19:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Karnak
The more I read this thread the more I become convinced that some people are far more worried about the Character Bazaar than they are about the game as a whole.
Skill Injectors are simply an alternative to the Character Bazaar, all sentimental rubbish aside, except that with Skill Injectors you get to name your character and forget the unnecessary baggage that comes with a purchased character.

Thank you for the spell check.

I've never used it.
I can't imagine why anyone would Blink
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#388 - 2016-02-27 19:43:07 UTC
Anton Karnak wrote:
The more I read this thread the more I become convinced that some people are far more worried about the Character Bizarre than they are about the game as a whole.
Skill Injectors are simply an alternative to the Character Bizarre, all sentimental rubbish aside, except that with Skill Injectors you get to name your character and forget the unnecessary baggage that comes with a purchased character.




Mate. The spelling is right there in the list of forums.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Poddington Bare
Black Mount Industrial
Breakpoint.
#389 - 2016-02-27 19:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Poddington Bare
Payne Dakara wrote:
...jump from a pray to a predator.


I was going to tease you with a "pray or prey" line...

...but then I realised I like the idea of prey praying predators don't show up.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#390 - 2016-02-27 23:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Ahh whateva, The game is disgustingly nauseating to me now and I think I'll start gathering my things to give away to some cool players I've recognize then delete this source of frustration out of my life and move on.
koenkoard
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#391 - 2016-02-28 02:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: koenkoard
1. Skill injectors
2. No drones on carriers

Just 2 examples (among a lot) of the 2 main policies that CCP has/will always follow. It’s their trademark so to speak:

1. To plain and simple strip money out of players (300mil extractors lol)
2. To systematically make it harder and harder for players to make Isk on their own in a half decent way (so they can enforce #1 easier)

So in short: rip’em off and cripple them so they can’t earn. CCP’s signature modus operandi.

Say what you want but we all know it’s true.
Darth Biznaga
Doomheim
#392 - 2016-02-28 03:44:18 UTC
They might as well make you earn active SP for doing stuff ( mining/killing etc ).
I'd also like special uber modified implants that'll give me like +10 attributes or those Cerebral accelators thingys i can then buy for money/plex/aurum/isk. Idea Learningboosters perhaps?

Besides who cares if before you'd have to wait to achieve something, it was something that isk/money couldn't buy(besides being subscribed to the game), no instant-gratification, patience and thinking your skillplan through and through was the deal of the day. It 'meant' something when you finally were able to fly and use that battlecruiser to optimal performance after all those weeks of waiting and waiting. yuk, i hate waiting for things ! X

The only option to achieve the 'here and now moment' was the Character Bazaar.
There i got stuck with some pilot who'd had most of the skills maxed the way i like but alot of other skills i wouldn't need.
That's not what i wanted and i surely don't want to pay 2 plex just for the transaction to get some dude or dudette with a goofy name. No sir, thank you.Cry

Lucky for us that time is gone, you can now fly what you want, trade a gazillion orders a day with the lowest taxes, scan the universe with ease and produce the finest modules and ships. All that in a couple of hours work and a few clicks with your internetbanking service. yeh Big smile

I can't wait for F2P/Premium EVE and Golden Ammo to arive at New Eden and those who have Premium will receive awesome free hats for their characters to wear...

Have faith and don't worry about the injectors, they are truly a blessing and an omen of more lovely things to come.Shocked







You got it..I want it
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#393 - 2016-02-28 07:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
koenkoard wrote:
1. Skill injectors
2. No drones on carriers

Just 2 examples (among a lot) of the 2 main policies that CCP has/will always follow. It’s their trademark so to speak:

1. To plain and simple strip money out of players (300mil extractors lol) This actually has more to do with relative PLEX pricing, which is entirely driven by the PLEX market. If the price of injectors is at a certain level it'e because PLEX prices are holding it there
2. To systematically make it harder and harder for players to make Isk on their own in a half decent way (so they can enforce #1 easier) The fun thing there is that if those pilots are actually a significant part of the isk earning and PLEX using community, nerfing them actually would help lower those extractor prices you're complaining about.

So in short: rip’em off and cripple them so they can’t earn. CCP’s signature modus operandi.

Say what you want but we all know it’s true.
Some point about the accusation above edited in. It's also worth noting that nerfing player's capacity to buy injectors and PLEX with in game means devalues them both from the standpoint of those spending real money and I'm willing to bet CCP already figured that out.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#394 - 2016-02-28 09:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Just a interesting twist to this all... CCP made 20 millon $ in profit last year, despite slightly diminshing income. That may be related with the need to cover for 2014's loss after derecognizing WoD, but also points that not investing on other large-ish projects than EVE renders CCP a nice profit. Valkyrie and Gunjack are by all measures small fish, specially Gunjack. DUST 514 was allegedly self-sustainable. So, focusing on EVE = money to spare = profits.

The part in which we're being double-billed for skillpoints as CCP expands its business into VR and plans to give a second try to a FPS game it's a tad harder to understand now. What are we paying for, exactly? More EVE? More games? More ~Vision~?
Major Xadi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#395 - 2016-02-28 11:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Xadi
Darth Biznaga wrote:
They might as well make you earn active SP for doing stuff ( mining/killing etc ).
I'd also like special uber modified implants that'll give me like +10 attributes or those Cerebral accelators thingys i can then buy for money/plex/aurum/isk. Idea Learningboosters perhaps?

Besides who cares if before you'd have to wait to achieve something, it was something that isk/money couldn't buy(besides being subscribed to the game), no instant-gratification, patience and thinking your skillplan through and through was the deal of the day. It 'meant' something when you finally were able to fly and use that battlecruiser to optimal performance after all those weeks of waiting and waiting. yuk, i hate waiting for things !

The only option to achieve the 'here and now moment' was the Character Bazaar.
There i got stuck with some pilot who'd had most of the skills maxed the way i like but alot of other skills i wouldn't need.
That's not what i wanted and i surely don't want to pay 2 plex just for the transaction to get some dude or dudette with a goofy name. No sir, thank you.Cry

Lucky for us that time is gone, you can now fly what you want, trade a gazillion orders a day with the lowest taxes, scan the universe with ease and produce the finest modules and ships. All that in a couple of hours work and a few clicks with your internetbanking service. yeh Big smile

I can't wait for F2P/Premium EVE and Golden Ammo to arive at New Eden and those who have Premium will receive awesome free hats for their characters to wear...

Have faith and don't worry about the injectors, they are truly a blessing and an omen of more lovely things to come.Shocked




The next step then would be to do away with the skill plan altogether and just let people buy premade toons. After all, It's practically what you can do now anyway. Nope, Nope, Nope. The toon won't mean anything to the player.

"Trade a gazillion orders a day with the lowest taxes" .... yeah, why bother to have trade skills at all then.

" yuk, i hate waiting for things !" This is the problem. As another player posted on here, new players will buy skill injectors and get maxed skills for certain things and then go out and welp ships. Many will become frustrated and quit because no patience and they will be disappointed they couldn't buy "I win".

I've been playing nearly 3 years, am still learning to pvp, and don't care about waiting to fly stuff I want. I'm enjoying the journey.

edit: oh, and I've been pvp'ing almost since completing the career agents. It's a mindset.
Shelick
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#396 - 2016-02-28 11:40:49 UTC
Sadly the OP is completely right...

As an eve vet i can confirm most of those points. Sadly CCP won't listen, and most players will move on to other games (a lot have already, look at eve-offline.net ...)
Aviola von Yodalgut
Doomheim
#397 - 2016-02-28 13:30:53 UTC
Shelick wrote:
Sadly the OP is completely right...

As an eve vet i can confirm most of those points. Sadly CCP won't listen, and most players will move on to other games (a lot have already, look at eve-offline.net ...)



I don't look at eve-offline.net, but if what you are saying is a true picture of what is happening then I'd be expecting the online numbers to be dropping.

Yesterday evening when I logged on they were at 35k+ the most I'd seen them for sometime.


There does appear to be a some vets not happy with the change but then the changes are better for new players imo. Before new players starting would never be able to catch-up to or perceive that they would ever catch up with players that had been playing for a very long time, now the possibility exists. How this plays out in the long-term I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#398 - 2016-02-28 14:04:15 UTC
Shelick wrote:
Sadly the OP is completely right...

As an eve vet i can confirm most of those points. Sadly CCP won't listen, and most players will move on to other games (a lot have already, look at eve-offline.net ...)


the only vets i see pulling their hair about this are mostly carebears. What?

Just Add Water
Lugh Crow-Slave
#399 - 2016-02-28 14:25:37 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


The problem woth this thinking is that some one who buys sp some how doest have the skill to use it.out becomes pay to when when is two equally skilled pilots one who can afford to get max SP and one who can not. This disparity is probably biggest during the first two years of a character.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Aviola von Yodalgut
Doomheim
#400 - 2016-02-28 14:52:54 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


The problem woth this thinking is that some one who buys sp some how doest have the skill to use it.out becomes pay to when when is two equally skilled pilots one who can afford to get max SP and one who can not. This disparity is probably biggest during the first two years of a character.



Too late to change it now, too many in-game transactions and too many cash transaction with CCP.


SP matters when looking at two identically skilled players, but that will be rare in EVE anyway. When people have something to lose they tend to be more cautious, so more inclined to attack something that they feel they have a good chance of beating.

In something like WoW battlegrounds where character levels are all within a limited range, stats do have a large effect on the results, in as much as skill doesn't matter so much when compared to what armour and weapons you are wearing and using.

In EVE there are no evenly matched (character levels) areas and as such the sp doesn't matter so much as most of the fights will be uneven to start with. Player skill is more important in the case of EVE although sp can and will help in solo fights. But even then most solo fights are not likely to start evenly matched.