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[February] Force Auxiliary Skills

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Disclosed Desire
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#121 - 2016-02-08 23:34:43 UTC
So I have to buy a new skill book to get my skills remapped?

What about capital repair skills? Triage skills? Why can't we get those deallocated as well?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#122 - 2016-02-08 23:53:34 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots.

Because otherwise those pilots lost access to existing hulls that they could use.

This change to carriers is more akin to the mining frigates & cruisers losing all their bonuses to mining and the new mining frigate being introduced. Where CCP did not award skill points because the hulls still existed and could still be flown.

And I sure don't remember lots of experienced people screaming that it wasn't fair that they didn't get given the new mining frigate at V. As I said before I am neutral, but historical precedent of this sort of change actually is that people have to train the new hull.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#123 - 2016-02-08 23:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravcharas
Rosal Milag wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots.


Yes because adding 4.5 million sp and adding 12 million sp is an equivalent event.

Oh and did they have injectors in game when the 4.5 million sp was added? Man, everyone but you totally missed them.

This is the best case scenario for CCP to keep the SP of the most advanced players from inflating more while keeping total value of the game null.

Admit to the truth, you want free SP for no other reason than CCP has given SP in one circumstance similar in the past. The rest of us are happy that triage pilots are not screwed up the ass with training times.

Stop thinking that you deserve free SP. You don't. You don't deserve a damn thing in this game. Everyone gets the same treatment.

Stop screaming about skillpoints. Skillpoints doesn't matter, they're just a measure of time spent. It's what capabilities you have unlocked that matters. If they gave everyone five billion skillpoints locked into advanced shitposting, nothing would happen, nothing would change.

(Except of course now that CCP have introduced the can of worms that is skill extractors, you could potentially want to get sp that you didn't intend to have locked into fax mchines or whatever and sell them instead. Which is probably why the days of sp as a medium of transfer and reimbursement is over.)
Lugh Crow-Slave
#124 - 2016-02-09 00:00:33 UTC
Dianila Artemisa wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
I am curious about the skill book prices in this regard. I would be hoping it would be closer to the dreadnaught skills than the carrier... otherwise that's going to suck up billions more.

Imagine the tears! (setting it closer to carrier than to dread would make it a nice ISK sink though)

EDIT: After checking my wallet, let's hope it's closer to the dread skillbook price.


sis si its currently a x14 skill for 500mill

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Valterra Craven
#125 - 2016-02-09 00:00:54 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints.

Cheers,
CCP Larrikin


You guys are really really frustrating on when and when you don't refund SP for skills affected. The fact is that you guys either need to A come up with clear and concise rules that you communicate to the community at large on how all future skill changes will be handled or B straight refund SP for any skill that gets changed.

Your old excuse of not refunding SP are no long valid given that you are now implementing Skill based trading.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#126 - 2016-02-09 00:06:36 UTC
Tiberian Deci wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's you can fly what you could fly, not you can do what you could.

You will still be able to fly a carrier unless you decide not to. There are 0 ship that you could fly that you will no longer be able to unless you decide to switch your SP via refund to something else and at that point, YOU made the decision to change so CCP's rule of "If you can fly it before you will after" is not broken.


I feel like you haven't yet made the distinction between being able to fly* something and being able to fly something. Sure, anyone with Gallente Battleship I can fly a Megathron, but without a core of engineering, armor, and gunnery skills they can't really fly it.

Same thing for carriers. I have spent two years training a toon from scratch who can do almost everything perfectly in a carrier. Now in order to fulfill the same roles I am almost perfect at I need to drop 2b isk on skillbooks and add another 8+ months of training time to my skill queue, oh, and I can't do it whenever I want because of the shitass attribute system? That's a raw deal and anyone can see it, except you I guess.


may be even worse when it comes to fighters both the new fighter skills are looking like x12

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#127 - 2016-02-09 00:11:04 UTC
Looks at wallet Ugh

Welp...which FAX do I want to pay for....again?

Oh wait, I don't know because I don't have any details. Sad

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Snowmann
Arrow Industries
#128 - 2016-02-09 00:19:32 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Tiberian Deci wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
It's you can fly what you could fly, not you can do what you could.

You will still be able to fly a carrier unless you decide not to. There are 0 ship that you could fly that you will no longer be able to unless you decide to switch your SP via refund to something else and at that point, YOU made the decision to change so CCP's rule of "If you can fly it before you will after" is not broken.


I feel like you haven't yet made the distinction between being able to fly* something and being able to fly something. Sure, anyone with Gallente Battleship I can fly a Megathron, but without a core of engineering, armor, and gunnery skills they can't really fly it.

Same thing for carriers. I have spent two years training a toon from scratch who can do almost everything perfectly in a carrier. Now in order to fulfill the same roles I am almost perfect at I need to drop 2b isk on skillbooks and add another 8+ months of training time to my skill queue, oh, and I can't do it whenever I want because of the shitass attribute system? That's a raw deal and anyone can see it, except you I guess.


may be even worse when it comes to fighters both the new fighter skills are looking like x12



Maybe they will make the new Fighter Squadrons worth the training.

Oh, and the skill book cost...
Memphis Baas
#129 - 2016-02-09 00:21:04 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Looks at wallet Ugh
Welp...which FAX do I want to pay for....again?
Oh wait, I don't know because I don't have any details. Sad


I think they only released this thread because Kahn Liam was having a panic attack in the other thread about the ships, and CCP Darwin tried to be nice. Note how they told us to wait for a dev blog, not a hastily written dev post.
Sub Starasque
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2016-02-09 00:29:02 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots.


Yes because adding 4.5 million sp and adding 12 million sp is an equivalent event.

Oh and did they have injectors in game when the 4.5 million sp was added? Man, everyone but you totally missed them.

So you're saying that we should have to drop real cash or the billions in equivalent isk to get something back that we already had? Solid logic there Einstein.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#131 - 2016-02-09 00:41:11 UTC
I fear this is a concerning step away from how such things have been handled in the past.

As of right now carriers server two roles, that of being a carrier, and that of being a triage carrier. After the FAX releases, part of that ability will be split off into this new ship, behind a new skill which must be bought and trained.

Traditionally the rule has always been, "If you can do it before, you can do it now". This is a shift from that to "We will allow you to choose which of these two you want, but we will give you some time to prepare." which is pretty far from the same thing.

I understand that this issue is somewhat mild in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't really directly effect me, but I believe it sends a very dangerous message. Especially as SP now has a tangible monetary value to CCP beyond subscription reward.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#132 - 2016-02-09 00:45:23 UTC
Rancid Meatballs wrote:
What happens if a pilot logs in his carrier, and there are no SP in his carrier skill?

I believe the correct sound effect is
*PTOOIE* PBlink

Do not actively tank my patience.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#133 - 2016-02-09 00:46:13 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
I fear this is a concerning step away from how such things have been handled in the past.

As of right now carriers server two roles, that of being a carrier, and that of being a triage carrier. After the FAX releases, part of that ability will be split off into this new ship, behind a new skill which must be bought and trained.

Traditionally the rule has always been, "If you can do it before, you can do it now". This is a shift from that to "We will allow you to choose which of these two you want, but we will give you some time to prepare." which is pretty far from the same thing.

I understand that this issue is somewhat mild in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't really directly effect me, but I believe it sends a very dangerous message. Especially as SP now has a tangible monetary value to CCP beyond subscription reward.

No, the rule has not and never has been that.
The rule was 'If you could fly it before you can fly it after'

There are a number of historical changes where a ship has had it's role significantly changed, such as the mining ships I mentioned earlier, or for the geddon from a laser boat to a neut boat, and other missile/turret boat changes, none of which received any kind of refund.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#134 - 2016-02-09 00:51:04 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
I fear this is a concerning step away from how such things have been handled in the past.

As of right now carriers server two roles, that of being a carrier, and that of being a triage carrier. After the FAX releases, part of that ability will be split off into this new ship, behind a new skill which must be bought and trained.

Traditionally the rule has always been, "If you can do it before, you can do it now". This is a shift from that to "We will allow you to choose which of these two you want, but we will give you some time to prepare." which is pretty far from the same thing.

I understand that this issue is somewhat mild in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't really directly effect me, but I believe it sends a very dangerous message. Especially as SP now has a tangible monetary value to CCP beyond subscription reward.

No, the rule has not and never has been that.
The rule was 'If you could fly it before you can fly it after'

There are a number of historical changes where a ship has had it's role significantly changed, such as the mining ships I mentioned earlier, or for the geddon from a laser boat to a neut boat, and other missile/turret boat changes, none of which received any kind of refund.


You are correct that ships that have been altered have not have refunding, but this is actually splitting off some of the functionality and expecting people to buy it a second time.

This situation doesn't map exactly to anything in the past, and they are free to implement this as is. It isn't terrible, just disappointing.

The troubling bit is that they seem to acknowledge that there is a choice to be made, a choice you didn't have to make before. They opted to side with not allowing magic SP to appear, which is different than past events. All I am saying is I hope that this is not a step towards evaluating SP as a monetizable asset, and thus granting SP as potential loss revenue, as this would impact future decisions as well as this one.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Lugh Crow-Slave
#135 - 2016-02-09 00:52:44 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Celeste Benal wrote:
If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost.

Why?
I need to pay for every thing.

CCP for very long time uphold rule : If you can fly it now ...
You will find multiple posts from CCP employees stating this, you will find this in dev blogs.

Now CCP changed this while changing at the same time important, time consuming and expensive line of ships.

Problem is that you will be no longer capable of doing the same stuff like before after this changes.
In some cases this is very big change.


convenient they changed their stance now that they sell extractors

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Tiberian Deci
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2016-02-09 00:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberian Deci
Rosal Milag wrote:
ApolloF117 HUN wrote:


and what i heard, pilot like me who has over 100m sp, those extractor/injector junks are mostly usless


So, you can't siphon off 500k SP like the rest of us? Huh, I totally missed that in the patch notes.


Why would he be trying to siphon off SP if it is allocated in a useful way? And if he wanted to inject it, there's a 70% (350,000) SP penalty because of how much SP he already has.

Go back to ratting in your Thanatos, and let those of us who actually use carriers for Triage talk about it you ****** little forum alt
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#137 - 2016-02-09 00:54:29 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:

You are correct that ships that have been altered have not have refunding, but this is actually splitting off some of the functionality and expecting people to buy it a second time.

This situation doesn't map exactly to anything in the past, and they are free to implement this as is. It isn't terrible, just disappointing.

The troubling bit is that they seem to acknowledge that there is a choice to be made, a choice you didn't have to make before. They opted to side with not allowing magic SP to appear, which is different than past events. All I am saying is I hope that this is not a step towards evaluating SP as a monetizable asset, and thus granting SP as potential loss revenue, as this would impact future decisions as well as this one.

Except it does.
The mining ship changes split off mining from all the racial frigates and introduced a new skill for ore frigates. And people were not awarded the ore frigate skill based on their racial frigates.
Certainly the SP involved was a much smaller number, but the principle was exactly the same.

That said, I'm not against CCP changing their policy, but they are not being inconsistent with their policy nor is this a totally new and unprecedented situation.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#138 - 2016-02-09 00:54:46 UTC
The issue is of course compounded as has been explained here by the fact that we now must make a lasting choice without much to go by. I suspect in the long run it would be far better to allow pioneers of the new system to go forward boldly, and not be afraid that such a significant investment will be a waste of time and resources.

The situation is still very salvageable, it is just not the optimal path in my opinion.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#139 - 2016-02-09 00:57:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:

You are correct that ships that have been altered have not have refunding, but this is actually splitting off some of the functionality and expecting people to buy it a second time.

This situation doesn't map exactly to anything in the past, and they are free to implement this as is. It isn't terrible, just disappointing.

The troubling bit is that they seem to acknowledge that there is a choice to be made, a choice you didn't have to make before. They opted to side with not allowing magic SP to appear, which is different than past events. All I am saying is I hope that this is not a step towards evaluating SP as a monetizable asset, and thus granting SP as potential loss revenue, as this would impact future decisions as well as this one.

Except it does.
The mining ship changes split off mining from all the racial frigates and introduced a new skill for ore frigates. And people were not awarded the ore frigate skill based on their racial frigates.
Certainly the SP involved was a much smaller number, but the principle was exactly the same.

That said, I'm not against CCP changing their policy, but they are not being inconsistent with their policy nor is this a totally new and unprecedented situation.


I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low.

I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#140 - 2016-02-09 00:58:11 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Celeste Benal wrote:
If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost.

Why?
I need to pay for every thing.

CCP for very long time uphold rule : If you can fly it now ...
You will find multiple posts from CCP employees stating this, you will find this in dev blogs.

Now CCP changed this while changing at the same time important, time consuming and expensive line of ships.

Problem is that you will be no longer capable of doing the same stuff like before after this changes.
In some cases this is very big change.


convenient they changed their stance now that they sell extractors

Even if this ISN'T the primary motivation, the timing it abismal.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!