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[February] Force Auxiliary Skills

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Author
S810 Jr
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#301 - 2016-02-10 11:44:04 UTC
GIVE UP THE DAMN FAX HULL STATS ALREADY!

We have no idea what the gallente one will have, but I can be sure it will NOT be a racial bonus to fighters like the Thanny has now!

Will the Amarr keep bonus to all armor resistances?

And you still expect us to just blindly buy skill books and train stuff we may NEVER use come patch day... well unless you count extracting those SP, which would involve giving you more real life monies, oh I see what you did there! Crafty EA.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#302 - 2016-02-10 11:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Neuntausend wrote:

Well, the timing is perfect in that regard, so this line of reasoning probably plays a role. But it does make sense to split it up, even beyond pushing SP trading in our faces. They explained it rather well: Carriers are real multitalents - they can deal damage through fighters, they can repair, they can boost, they have a refitting service and a ship hangar. Therefore it's by far the superior choice for most people for their "first capital" over Dreadnoughts. It makes a lot more sense to have another class just for the support roles so every capital is a decent choice as first venture into the world of capital ships.

But then, it doesn't make much sense to have two completely different classes covered by the same skill. Now we have:

Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for in your face DPS
Racial Carrier + Fighters for variable long range DPS and anti-support
Racial FAX + Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration for logistics

Its neat and tidy and makes a lot of sense.


Its the kind of 'neat and tidy' that stalin was looking for when he tried to redesign russia. Not sure history looks back on that as a smart move.

In achieving this 'neat and tidy' CCP will throw people months behind where they currently are now while offering the solution which can run from 600GBP(900USD+) per racial skill.

Ill show you THE neat and tidy way to introduce this new ship. This is legitimate since no new role is being added so there is no fair justification to add a new skill. All that needs to be done is rename each racial carrier skill to 'Fleet Auxiliary Support' or something of the like.

Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Reconfiguration
Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + Carrier + Fighters
Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + FAX + Triage

There becomes 2 ships in the class, this is not unique in EVE and follows the path of all other sub cap T1 ships. It also opens up the option to add different performing ships in the dreadnought class.

This option leaves people with the same capabilities that they currently have, does not require any free SP and does not put new bros any further behind the old guard.

An even neater option would have been to just make it so that the triage module removed the vast majority of the carriers drone bay. In this scenario no new ugly ship would be required at all once all the bonuses are shifted to the desired place.

Neuntausend wrote:

Even if it weren't acceptable - what can we do, really? CCP have shown that they don't give a flying **** about their players opinions anymore. The only way to show them that something is not acceptable is to leave the game. But if we do that, why would we care what CCP does in the future?

So, it's either staying with the game if we still enjoy it, or quitting the game if we don't.


So what you are saying is there is no point complaining, or talking about the alternatives? That is a horrible position to take. If people get mad about this change and just quietly quit without warning then how does that help the game?

Im not a spiteful person so i think the better option is to make it very clear why many of us are antagonized by this cash grab (even im tempted to just throw down 60bn isk to just get the skills i need but i wont on principle) and what the options are to recover from this. This happened in the past with Incarna. It may not happen now, but i hope CCPs cost / benefit analysis of throwing so many of its most loyal customers under the bus is well calculated.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#303 - 2016-02-10 12:01:27 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Reconfiguration
Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + Carrier + Fighters
Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + FAX + Triage.

Your idea is so amazing, if only CCP could have thought of it....
Oh wait they did and discarded it because it failed to meet one of their aims, which was that any of the capitals should be equal value first trains for someone new to caps.

Your idea yet again leaves the Dread skill out as the poor cousin, something they specifically were designing to prevent. Their current solution is actually the ideal solution, yes it hurts having to spend training time to be able to both DPS & Logi perfectly again, but at the end of the day it is the best solution available for their given design requirements.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#304 - 2016-02-10 12:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Reconfiguration
Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + Carrier + Fighters
Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + FAX + Triage.

Your idea is so amazing, if only CCP could have thought of it....
Oh wait they did and discarded it because it failed to meet one of their aims, which was that any of the capitals should be equal value first trains for someone new to caps.

Your idea yet again leaves the Dread skill out as the poor cousin, something they specifically were designing to prevent. Their current solution is actually the ideal solution, yes it hurts having to spend training time to be able to both DPS & Logi perfectly again, but at the end of the day it is the best solution available for their given design requirements.


Since the dreadnought is a far cheaper skill im not sure you have a valid point. To satisfy what you believe to be their design decision they could have easily edited either price. But as it stands, dreadnought has a quicker train and the skill costs 1/5th of the price.

The only design requirements satisfied by this change is tempting people to buy SP injectors.

Its hilarious that you brown shirt for them though. Or you are just expertly roleplaying a forum poster who is wrong on nearly every point they make.

If they stick to their guns here, Im going to need all my cap related SP reimbursed on both characters so that i can make decisions at a later date. Im currently on an Intel/mem remap so just starting a new level 14 per/will train is not an option. Ive done nothing but train per/will on my intel/mem remap anyway with the racial t3d, logi frig and cmdessy skills.

There should be remaps given when substantial new skills are released.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#305 - 2016-02-10 12:13:09 UTC
Considering they can easily make the main timesink of the new carriers fighters and triage, that's not a valid argument.

Furthermore dreads being cheaper and a lower rank undermines the goal you claim they have anyway.

Where are the new skill requirements for the stasis grapplers? Where is the unique bowhead skill? Or is it just cap pilots who get the good news?
Tawaif
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2016-02-10 12:21:19 UTC
The important conversation is being had on reddit anyway, why did i even bother to hope that a dev might possibly show his or her face on this thread.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#307 - 2016-02-10 12:23:11 UTC
Please dont make me create a reddit account. Nobody wants that.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#308 - 2016-02-10 12:33:07 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Where are the new skill requirements for the stasis grapplers? Where is the unique bowhead skill? Or is it just cap pilots who get the good news?

Uh, that would be called Ore Freighter, a skill which only does the Bowhead?
Seriously, at least try to know what you are whining about.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#309 - 2016-02-10 12:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Where are the new skill requirements for the stasis grapplers? Where is the unique bowhead skill? Or is it just cap pilots who get the good news?

Uh, that would be called Ore Freighter, a skill which only does the Bowhead?
Seriously, at least try to know what you are whining about.


My mistake, I forgot about it. Your attitude is ironic though.

Perhaps you could explain the navy battlecruisers, indeed the navy anything - doesn't need a new skill.

The Nosprey is quite clearly a different distinct role from the osprey.

Perhaps we need navy ship books too.


Cripes man, aside from the odd troll, not a single cap pilot is happy about this. The entire focus group dislikes it.

When you've managed to **** off everyone with a transition you know you're doing it wrong.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#310 - 2016-02-10 12:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Funny how you made a mistake and acknowledged it. Unlike the two trolls in here who are factually or conceptually wrong on nearly everything they say but just ignore it like it didnt happen lol.

Dont forget about new skills for the T1 frigate and cruiser logi. Not only do they not fall into the regular combat cruiser role. they are dramatically different to their previous incarnation.

CCP must have forgot to give them new skills when they got their logistics role.
Tawaif
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2016-02-10 12:46:12 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Please dont make me create a reddit account. Nobody wants that.

Maybe you should because it seems CCP take about as much notice of their Forum's as I do of the current lines and price's in the Aurum store.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#312 - 2016-02-10 12:49:52 UTC
Tawaif wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Please dont make me create a reddit account. Nobody wants that.

Maybe you should because it seems CCP take about as much notice of their Forum's as I do of the current lines and price's in the Aurum store.



Given the silence in the current top reddit post, which has 90% approval from a nearly five hundred people last I checked...yeah don't hold your breath.

Here's the tl;dr of the impact:

Loroseco Cross wrote:
A pilot with perfect remaps and +4s trains about 2600sp/hour. To get my two Archon pilots to the same utility they have now, I will have to train for a total of 156 days on both accounts. That's 6 PLEX, or 33 skill injectors. So either 7.2bil per account if I'm patient enough to train, or 15-20bil in injectors (300k sp per injector).
Bear in mind that I only have Amarr carrier 5. Anyone with all carriers to 5 will have to train for 328 days to maintain the same utility post-Citadel that they currently have today.
Tawaif
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#313 - 2016-02-10 12:52:23 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Tawaif wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Please dont make me create a reddit account. Nobody wants that.

Maybe you should because it seems CCP take about as much notice of their Forum's as I do of the current lines and price's in the Aurum store.



Given the silence in the current top reddit post, which has 90% approval from a nearly five hundred people last I checked...yeah don't hold your breath.

Here's the tl;dr of the impact:

Loroseco Cross wrote:
A pilot with perfect remaps and +4s trains about 2600sp/hour. To get my two Archon pilots to the same utility they have now, I will have to train for a total of 156 days on both accounts. That's 6 PLEX, or 33 skill injectors. So either 7.2bil per account if I'm patient enough to train, or 15-20bil in injectors (300k sp per injector).
Bear in mind that I only have Amarr carrier 5. Anyone with all carriers to 5 will have to train for 328 days to maintain the same utility post-Citadel that they currently have today.

They're more likely to be reading Reddit than their own forum's tho
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#314 - 2016-02-10 12:54:18 UTC
Yeah, this one made me laugh though: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/44a906/patch_notes_patch_notes_for_february_2016_release/czopb28

Turns out it wasn't so much speculation as entirely accurate foretelling.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#315 - 2016-02-10 13:46:53 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


When you've managed to **** off everyone with a transition you know you're doing it wrong.


Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't...
Vulfen
Project Valhalla.
Goonswarm Federation
#316 - 2016-02-10 13:51:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


When you've managed to **** off everyone with a transition you know you're doing it wrong.


Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't...

Its not the lack of free stuff most people are annoyed with, but the lack of accurate information so we can make an informed decision on the best route that annoys people.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#317 - 2016-02-10 13:55:44 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Funny how you made a mistake and acknowledged it. Unlike the two trolls in here who are factually or conceptually wrong on nearly everything they say but just ignore it like it didnt happen lol.

Dont forget about new skills for the T1 frigate and cruiser logi. Not only do they not fall into the regular combat cruiser role. they are dramatically different to their previous incarnation.

CCP must have forgot to give them new skills when they got their logistics role.


They didn't add new skills for the cruiser and frigates because we were already able to fly the hull in question. I could fly a mining osprey so their rule stated I had to be able to still fly an osprey. If they created a new skill for them, they would need to grant it's SP value to everyone who could fly it back before the change or we would have a case of not being able to fly a ship we could before. This is not happening to the FAX as no-one could fly them ever before.

The same principle was followed when they made the BC except they really wanted to create a bigger SP sink to fly them all so they went with a solution that increased the SP sink while also letting everyone still fly all the hulls they could before the change. If I could fly all BC with V skill on them before the swap, they had to let me fly them all at V after the change too. You could not fly a FAX at V before the announcement and most likely won't be able to make it to have all trained by the time citadel hits and that is why you don't get it directly to you.

Your suggestion would work if CCP said the role you could fly before, you will fly after but it was never that. It was always about ships.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#318 - 2016-02-10 13:58:28 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


When you've managed to **** off everyone with a transition you know you're doing it wrong.


Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't...

Its not the lack of free stuff most people are annoyed with, but the lack of accurate information so we can make an informed decision on the best route that annoys people.


I have no issue with people annoyed they don't know what the ship will end up being, I have issue with people asking to be granted skills to fly 4 new ship because they trained for another one before.
ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#319 - 2016-02-10 14:11:12 UTC
Quote:
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Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.


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Lieutenant

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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#320 - 2016-02-10 14:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Literally noone wants new skills for free. People just want to be able to do what they have already trained for.

I can fly a combat carrier, i can fly a triage carrier. they could have introduced a new ship in the carrier line without creating a new skill since both roles are preexisting.

The fact that you have to misrepresent peoples objections as wanting free stuff really speaks volumes about your purpose here.

The fact that CCP introduced these ships in the way that they did also speaks volumes.

It doesnt matter how much misguided apologetics you throw at it, you are still nothing more than a troll. People complaining about legitimate issues on a forum is what forums are for. People complaining about people complaining is a little bit sad mate.