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Why Eve Can't attract new players, and has lost 20,000 so far.

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2016-03-04 15:38:07 UTC
Aelavaine wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Or you know...you could have friends in game.
...or in real life. What's your point?


Having alts is not a must have requirement. In fact, in many cases having several players vs. several alts will be better on average.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Aelavaine
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2016-03-04 17:32:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Having alts is not a must have requirement. In fact, in many cases having several players vs. several alts will be better on average.
I agree.

The reason why I mentioned it is because it was one of the things non EVE players told me about this game.
Here my experiences why they don't play EVE are, beside they aren't into science fiction stuff, on number one the time and on second place the costs.

You want more than spinning ships? Support Avatar Gameplay!

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2016-03-04 18:07:58 UTC
Aelavaine wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Having alts is not a must have requirement. In fact, in many cases having several players vs. several alts will be better on average.
I agree.

The reason why I mentioned it is because it was one of the things non EVE players told me about this game.
Here my experiences why they don't play EVE are, beside they aren't into science fiction stuff, on number one the time and on second place the costs.


I think the first point is the most significant....if you aren't that into scifi, why pick this MMO. Yes, it can be a time consuming game. However, there are ways around that, but yes then you run into your last point--money. If you do not want to grind for ISK and wait for SP to build up, then you can shell out some RL cash and side step that.

But I don't see how that is any different than many of these free to play MMOs. People start out playing "for free" then they get tired of the grind (which in some ways is worse in these MMOs as it really does require your time, whereas in EVE you can at least acquire SP even while logged out) so they get out the credit card and soon it is the special whatever to earn more XP/in game currency, then maybe converting psuedo-XP into real XP (I recall world of tanks had something like this in World of Tanks). Next thing you know you've shelled a surprisingly large amount of cash but you didn't realize it because they were nickle and diming you or they had those nice specials, you want to spend $5, but you see that $25 special offer that lets you get 7x whatever you were going to buy. That is why I quite playing those games as they were more...almost...sneaky at getting you to pay cash. With EVE I pay for a year, and I know it is about $11/month and nothing more.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Aelavaine
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2016-03-05 09:30:11 UTC
Well the monthly fee kept me ten years ago from joining the game, but now I agree EVE is cheap in comparison to many free to play games. That brings us back to the question why CCP failed for years to convince for example me to join its club of capsuleers? Maybe they simply failed to bring the message of a really cool game despite the fees to me? Who knows.

But people are short sighted, with exception of you dear reader of course. Monthly fees - free, monthly fees - free.... That people very probably will pay over time more for a f2p game isn't in their minds at the beginning.
I don't suggest CCP should change that, the contrary. But I still think it's a reason that has an effect to some degree.

You want more than spinning ships? Support Avatar Gameplay!

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#45 - 2016-03-05 17:54:36 UTC
Aelavaine wrote:

But people are short sighted, with exception of you dear reader of course. Monthly fees - free, monthly fees - free.... That people very probably will pay over time more for a f2p game isn't in their minds at the beginning.
I don't suggest CCP should change that, the contrary. But I still think it's a reason that has an effect to some degree.


This is true, I see a lot of people who dont play EVE saying a monthly sub is old fashioned and puts them off. I of course file these people under 'probably wasnt an eve player anyway' and move on with my life.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Molpadia Devaux
Kamikaze Lemmings
#46 - 2016-03-07 13:45:36 UTC
Let's start with some RL background:
I'm an Old Fart, Age 66.
American Veteran of the Vietnam War. Having engaged in RL PvP, I am not obsessed with blowing up pixels.
Age and injury put me at a disadvantage in a twitch contest with teenagers.
Currently disabled and therefore spend a lot of time on line.

The PvE environment in Eve has a base game that if developed could be great. I have come and gone multiple times, mostly because of the attitude of CCP itself, I keep coming back in hopes the attitude has changed. It is one thing to have a bias toward one play style, it is another to kiss the ring of one group of players. Adding up CCP's lost revenue from me is about $3400.00.

The areas I feel CCP could improve Eve in Hi-sec.

Graphics.
I am an armature astronomer with a nice 8" telescope.
As seen from space stars would be distinct points of light. In Eve, stars are blurred as if looking through an atmosphere.
The nebula as portrayed in Eve are huge, to be that close to most nebulae a person would be fried by X-rays and Gamma Rays.
The light diffusion as you look at the star in each solar system is that of again, as observed through an atmosphere, and not from the vacuum of space.

Ganking Risk vs Reward.
The gankee takes all the risk. Crime watch is an improvement, I feel it would be better if in addition to the 15 min. timer, a second 24 hour timer was attached ( perhaps black pirate icon ) that would make them a valid target for the neighborhood watch. These timers would be cumulative. You gank 5 players, you're a valid target for 5 days or until you're killed 5 times.
NPC Corporation faction loss similar to security loss. I have 8.5 standing with say Core Complexion, and you have no status, you get negative status with Core Complexion, get enough and Core Complexion won't let you use their stations.

Piracy
I'm not sure where CCP got it's idea of what a pirate was. Caribbean pirates, with only a couple of exceptions, used very fast, lightly armed sloops against unarmed merchants. The goal was to steal the cargo, not sink the ship.

Evolution of sheep.
CCP believes that humanity will evolve into a species that accepts lawlessness without exception. Something along the lines of an old west town terrorizing it's citizens in perpetuity. Bring in Wyatt Earp.

License to steal.
Custom Office Monopolies granted to the select few at the time of the change. These should either be returned to Interbus or allow multiple offices. This is an example of unfair bias in favor of a few, and a demonstration of how much Eve Is Not a Sandbox. The rules alone prevent me from installing a second office.

Sandbox Myth.
Those who claim Eve is a sandbox are those that the rules favor.
If it were a true sandbox I could make a WWII "Q" ship. An exhumer hull fitted with weapons and modules to gank the gankers.

Non PvP player.
CCP could most likely attract and retain many that are more interested in PvE, manufacturing and trade. ( Expecting PvP diehards to respond with 'that's not what Eve is about", "CAREBEAR", "why don't you leave then" or any troll you want.) Keep in mind, what I propose is not for low-sec or null, only high sec, to aid new players and those that are not obsessed with PvP.

A change in Player Corporations, add a PA (Private Association) category. Up to 3 members that are on the same account, ie a personal corporation. Only other PA's can declare war on a PA.

Any logistics support in High-sec is an act of aggression.

I have seen overzealous wanna-be pretend bad boys drive potential players away. A brand new player (less that one day old) went to recruitment channel, announced he was a new player, some trolls immediately placed a bounty on him. I added him as a contact, but he had already logged off, and 10 days later, has not logged on again, nor replied to the e-mail I sent apologizing for the bad behavior.

Rant is long enough.














Dom Arkaral
Slavers Union
#47 - 2016-03-07 14:22:14 UTC
Molpadia Devaux wrote:
Let's start with some RL background:
I'm an Old Fart, Age 66.
American Veteran of the Vietnam War. Having engaged in RL PvP, I am not obsessed with blowing up pixels.
Age and injury put me at a disadvantage in a twitch contest with teenagers.
Currently disabled and therefore spend a lot of time on line.

The PvE environment in Eve has a base game that if developed could be great. I have come and gone multiple times, mostly because of the attitude of CCP itself, I keep coming back in hopes the attitude has changed. It is one thing to have a bias toward one play style, it is another to kiss the ring of one group of players. Adding up CCP's lost revenue from me is about $3400.00.

The areas I feel CCP could improve Eve in Hi-sec.

Graphics.
I am an armature astronomer with a nice 8" telescope.
As seen from space stars would be distinct points of light. In Eve, stars are blurred as if looking through an atmosphere.
The nebula as portrayed in Eve are huge, to be that close to most nebulae a person would be fried by X-rays and Gamma Rays.
The light diffusion as you look at the star in each solar system is that of again, as observed through an atmosphere, and not from the vacuum of space.

Ganking Risk vs Reward.
The gankee takes all the risk. Crime watch is an improvement, I feel it would be better if in addition to the 15 min. timer, a second 24 hour timer was attached ( perhaps black pirate icon ) that would make them a valid target for the neighborhood watch. These timers would be cumulative. You gank 5 players, you're a valid target for 5 days or until you're killed 5 times.
NPC Corporation faction loss similar to security loss. I have 8.5 standing with say Core Complexion, and you have no status, you get negative status with Core Complexion, get enough and Core Complexion won't let you use their stations.

Piracy
I'm not sure where CCP got it's idea of what a pirate was. Caribbean pirates, with only a couple of exceptions, used very fast, lightly armed sloops against unarmed merchants. The goal was to steal the cargo, not sink the ship.

Evolution of sheep.
CCP believes that humanity will evolve into a species that accepts lawlessness without exception. Something along the lines of an old west town terrorizing it's citizens in perpetuity. Bring in Wyatt Earp.

License to steal.
Custom Office Monopolies granted to the select few at the time of the change. These should either be returned to Interbus or allow multiple offices. This is an example of unfair bias in favor of a few, and a demonstration of how much Eve Is Not a Sandbox. The rules alone prevent me from installing a second office.

Sandbox Myth.
Those who claim Eve is a sandbox are those that the rules favor.
If it were a true sandbox I could make a WWII "Q" ship. An exhumer hull fitted with weapons and modules to gank the gankers.

Non PvP player.
CCP could most likely attract and retain many that are more interested in PvE, manufacturing and trade. ( Expecting PvP diehards to respond with 'that's not what Eve is about", "CAREBEAR", "why don't you leave then" or any troll you want.) Keep in mind, what I propose is not for low-sec or null, only high sec, to aid new players and those that are not obsessed with PvP.

A change in Player Corporations, add a PA (Private Association) category. Up to 3 members that are on the same account, ie a personal corporation. Only other PA's can declare war on a PA.

Any logistics support in High-sec is an act of aggression.

I have seen overzealous wanna-be pretend bad boys drive potential players away. A brand new player (less that one day old) went to recruitment channel, announced he was a new player, some trolls immediately placed a bounty on him. I added him as a contact, but he had already logged off, and 10 days later, has not logged on again, nor replied to the e-mail I sent apologizing for the bad behavior.

Rant is long enough.


Hi

1-HTFU
2-Players make the ingame content, CCP provides the tools.
3-I respect the fact you served an all, but EVE is literally "Everyone versus Everyone".
4-Gankers are mostly all -10 sec status so anyone can shoot them already.
Someone before you already tried to have all of your ideas implemented,
That someone failed because the vast majority of the player base understand that there's a risk to get popped when you undock (except the hardcore carebears)

I started as a carebear, then discovered Pvp when someone got ganked near me.
Then I started shooting people and never stopped since.
The pvp aspect is what makes people stay, not doing level 4 missions and mining all day long..

And finally your "PA" idea would only result in mercs and pirates making PAs to blap other PAs..
Lol

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#48 - 2016-03-07 17:28:21 UTC
Molpadia Devaux wrote:
Jesus Christ that's a long rant





1. Nice biographical information, but is it relevant? I will have you know that I am the Queen and reside in Buckingham Palace and do not pay tax or have a passport.


2. Great, so an 'armature' astronomer wants to chip in with their two cents? Fantastic. Let's re-do what the art department has created just to be more realistic. Submarines in space? Never mind about that.

3. 'The gankee takes all the risk'. Brilliant. Don't worry about the fact that the aggressor loses their ship when they violence someone else's boat - don't worry about that at all! Were a player like you to have a telephone conversation with CCP, I imagine it'd go something like this:

You: "Change the game, it's unfair to those players who refuse to interact with others but who get blown up without (as I see it) any repercussions!"

CCP: "Free and unfettered actions (and the attendant consequences therein) are the essence of the sandbox. What's stopping you from exercising the killrights and blapping the guy who blapped you?"

You: "Errr...change it anyway, make a level playing field!"

CCP: "Sorry, no - it would destroy the game as we know it"

You: "NO U"

4. Your analogy with seafaring pirates is flawed, as - to my knowledge - Caribbean pirates perhaps weren't concerned with looting the modules from their prey. In EVE, that is very much a part of the piracy experience (loot fairy permitting).

5. You don't have to be 'obsessed with PVP' to enjoy this game (I I'm terrible at it...doesn't stop me trying, though), but you most certainly must accept that virtually everything in EVE is predicated on social interactions and dependent therein. It's not a single player game with MMO elements; it's an MMO with some single player (PVE) elements - that is the truth now, and it has been the truth since the beta game servers were switched on.

Accepting that this is the way things are will do wonders for you; if you can't, perhaps another game may be more to your liking.

In a funny way, by the way, you yourself are now a 'criminal' (in the context of the forum'), as you have breached rule 3 with your self-admitted rant:


Quote:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.




Food for thought.


*Bumble steeples his fingers*


Your move, cowboy.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Molpadia Devaux
Kamikaze Lemmings
#49 - 2016-03-07 20:40:35 UTC
I know many love the way Eve works now. Most of Eve is open to the style they love. I will not diminish their desire nor passion for the things they want.

There are others who may prefer other things. PvE, trading and manufacture ARE a part of Eve. If CCP does not want the people who prefer these, then remove them.

I recall when I started in 2008, 25,000-30,000 online was common. I recommend Eve to a friend because of this. The statistics I see do not show much improvement in 8 years. If CCP's marketing plan is player churning, fair enough.

Personal styles and abilities should be considered by any corporation if they desire to grow and increase revenue. I thought that increasing the appeal of a product was a desirable endeavor.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#50 - 2016-03-07 21:22:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Molpadia Devaux wrote:
I know many love the way Eve works now. Most of Eve is open to the style they love. I will not diminish their desire nor passion for the things they want.

There are others who may prefer other things. PvE, trading and manufacture ARE a part of Eve. If CCP does not want the people who prefer these, then remove them.

I recall when I started in 2008, 25,000-30,000 online was common. I recommend Eve to a friend because of this. The statistics I see do not show much improvement in 8 years. If CCP's marketing plan is player churning, fair enough.

Personal styles and abilities should be considered by any corporation if they desire to grow and increase revenue. I thought that increasing the appeal of a product was a desirable endeavor.
PvE, trading and industry are indeed an essential part of Eve - but they absolutely require PvP to be worthwhile. Gathering resources and making stuff would lose all meaning if this sandbox game did not have risk as well as feature permanent loss. No one would want your stuff and be willing to give you anything for it.

You are asking to have your cake and eat it too. PvE/industry requires PvP to give it meaning and items in this game value, and PvP needs PvE/Industry to make the weapons of war. You cannot isolate players from PvP like you want yet still let them benefit from the shared game economy. If you want that, you can already mine/mission/build to your heart's content in 100% safety on the test server. But you won't, because if you tried you would quickly come to the conclusion that these activities have little value in isolation from the greater game.

Eve is a single-universe, competitive sandbox game, almost unique in the gaming space. CCP has tried to juggle the eternal dilemma of safety vs. vulnerability and already highsec is extremely safe, essentially 100% safe if you spend little effort. No, not 100% safe, but this is by design and whatever risks that are left are easily managed. You have to accept those risks or play something else. CCP cannot provide the absolute safety you seem to demand and still stay true to the fundamental design of the game. The customers that you say want that just cannot be catered to with this product.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#51 - 2016-03-08 13:50:55 UTC
Molpadia Devaux wrote:
I know many love the way Eve works now. Most of Eve is open to the style they love. I will not diminish their desire nor passion for the things they want.

There are others who may prefer other things. PvE, trading and manufacture ARE a part of Eve. If CCP does not want the people who prefer these, then remove them.

I recall when I started in 2008, 25,000-30,000 online was common. I recommend Eve to a friend because of this. The statistics I see do not show much improvement in 8 years. If CCP's marketing plan is player churning, fair enough.

Personal styles and abilities should be considered by any corporation if they desire to grow and increase revenue. I thought that increasing the appeal of a product was a desirable endeavor.



You can't make a full contact sport like say Australian Rules football playable by haemophiliacs with osteoporosis without alienating the people who play it because it's a full contact sport. How would you like it if I had a "no market PvP flag" on my character and any sell orders I purchased from were automatically modified to npc prices because paying player set prices "isn't my style"?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Flamespar
WarRavens
#52 - 2016-03-13 06:57:43 UTC
MMOs have lifespans. Maybe EVE has simply passed it's peak.

It's certainly looking a lot more polished nowadays, but for me personally it's still pretty much the same game I quit playing over a year ago (I'm back for a month out of curiosity).

Plus there are a number of other space ship games out there that simply weren't around 5 years ago, so players have choices in what game they play. Personally I prefer the hands on flying of Elite Dangerous, but at the moment it lacks the complexity and depth that EVE offers, and all players on the one server provides a unique experience.

I personally think CCP's current tactic is going to try and grow it's customer base through multiple products (Valkyrie, Dust/Legion/Whatever), rather than trying to attract more players to EVE.

I think this is a shame because I would like to see EVE grow, the lore is interesting and universe unique, and there plenty of avenues for new and interesting game play (WiS, colonizing planets, interacting/meddling with NPC empires) but I don't think any of these will be explored because "EVE is just about spaceships herp derp".
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#53 - 2016-03-15 04:19:11 UTC
Sorry but ganking and uninvited PvP has been the core of this game for many years and has been a big part of its attraction, not the problem.

If you ask me, it's not any single change but the myriad of inconsistent changes that annoy the existing and dedicated players to no end. Large part of EVEs success depends on existing players creating the narratives, the projects and conflicts that drive New Eden. Sometimes it takes years of blood sweat and tears to accomplish the majestic goals and endeavors players set out on. They recruit and include others in their communities which strengthens the loyalty of the players. Lacking the inspiration and motivation to get emotionally invested in such endeavors is what's causing its current decline.

If our efforts are constantly threatened by CCP development decisions, if we spend too much of our energy fighting CCP on the forums instead of each other in space, if we don't feel secure and confident enough about the games future, then the game stagnates.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Gyliam Maddox
EVE Credit Bureau
#54 - 2016-03-18 21:18:49 UTC
Suicide ganking helps the economy as it adds demand and drives up commodity prices.
cuminu
all laidback and real nice corporation
#55 - 2016-03-19 21:50:41 UTC
Eve has probably lost me and my other account as I have noticed a huge number of players steeling loot from all my hard work I know it is the game but I don't want to spend 15 to 20 min it's killing stuff for someone to be able to warp in kill the loot dropper and get the loot I feel I am wasting my time I could spend all my time mining but how boring

That's the reason for me

My son started playing and just in his trial he was ganged twice and had his ore stolen and getting completely ripped of endlessly he said he wasn't good enuff for the game so did not sub
Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#56 - 2016-03-22 16:14:52 UTC
It's sad, but by following a few simple rules (Not being AFK, not using direct warps between gates, using comms) brings you to find that nullsec is far more pacified than high-sec ;)

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2016-03-22 16:55:43 UTC
Sylphy wrote:
It's sad, but by following a few simple rules (Not being AFK, not using direct warps between gates, using comms) brings you to find that nullsec is far more pacified than high-sec ;)


Of course, and why would that be?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jasmine Deer
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2016-03-31 13:50:55 UTC
cuminu wrote:
My son started playing and just in his trial he was ganged twice and had his ore stolen and getting completely ripped of endlessly he said he wasn't good enuff for the game so did not sub


A wonderful story sure to delight and warm the hearts of the HTFU crowd.
Dom Arkaral
Slavers Union
#59 - 2016-03-31 13:59:03 UTC
Jasmine Deer wrote:
cuminu wrote:
My son started playing and just in his trial he was ganged twice and had his ore stolen and getting completely ripped of endlessly he said he wasn't good enuff for the game so did not sub


A wonderful story sure to delight and warm the hearts of the HTFU crowd.

I approve of this message.

HTFU Cool

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist

Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#60 - 2016-04-01 08:17:12 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sylphy wrote:
It's sad, but by following a few simple rules (Not being AFK, not using direct warps between gates, using comms) brings you to find that nullsec is far more pacified than high-sec ;)


Of course, and why would that be?


Because null-sec is where a bunch of wannabe landlords live and they like to keep their turf pacified. So the tenants are generating more income and the revenue on services is thus better.

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.