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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1881 - 2016-02-06 04:24:15 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
galtest12345 wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
galtest12345 wrote:
People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?

This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.

I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably.



Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period.



No, they didn't "lie to us" - it's priced cheap enough regardless of the subscription model or not. Subscription+plex is more than affordable and something many people already do for isk. There's nothing about a 999aurum extractor that's beyond some newbies budget. Face it, you wanted to hate this no matter what price they used.


lol, you should check my post history regarding this topic. I was one of the strongest supporters for it from the get go. The way they priced these extractors is a clear indicator that they're only after money and not really supporting newbros which is how they spun this originally. Due to the fact they priced it the way have + the spin for helping newbros = a flat lie to the player base.



So 999 aurum for an extractor is prohibitively expensive? You might want to ask your boss for a raise. Maybe get a paper round on the weekends, you'd be able to afford one every week then. Seriously, It's 999 aurum. How much cheaper did you think it would be? A whole dollar cheaper? A dollar fifty? Oh goodness, the newbros can't afford it if it's 999 aurum instead of 799. Roll
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#1882 - 2016-02-06 04:26:45 UTC
galtest12345 wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
galtest12345 wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
galtest12345 wrote:
People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?

This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.

I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably.



Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period.



No, they didn't "lie to us" - it's priced cheap enough regardless of the subscription model or not. Subscription+plex is more than affordable and something many people already do for isk. There's nothing about a 999aurum extractor that's beyond some newbies budget. Face it, you wanted to hate this no matter what price they used.


lol, you should check my post history regarding this topic. I was one of the strongest supporters for it from the get go. The way they priced these extractors is a clear indicator that they're only after money and not really supporting newbros which is how they spun this originally. Due to the fact they priced it the way have + the spin for helping newbros = a flat lie to the player base.



So 999 aurum for an extractor is prohibitively expensive? You might want to ask your boss for a raise. Maybe get a paper round on the weekends, you'd be able to afford one every week then. Seriously, It's 999 aurum. How much cheaper did you think it would be? A whole dollar cheaper? A dollar fifty? Oh goodness, the newbros can't afford it if it's 999 aurum instead of 799. Roll


You're missing the point entirely. Oh well, some are a lost cause, you're one of them. Fair well.
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1883 - 2016-02-06 04:33:15 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:


You're missing the point entirely. Oh well, some are a lost cause, you're one of them. Fair well.


I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with you. See ya then.
Vile Swan
Z.odiac Signs
#1884 - 2016-02-06 04:36:10 UTC
CCP I'd like to say on behalf of the whole game. Thank you for F*****g garbage price you put on the extractors. It will only cost $100 to get a new toon to 15 million skillpoints bahahahahaha. LONG LIVE CCP.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1885 - 2016-02-06 04:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
galtest12345 wrote:
People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?

This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.

I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably.
People have been saying it's "not for new players" from the combination of the facts that the injectors are in game sold and more easily obtainable by veteran players. The group getting them without cost from the buyers perspective and having the ability to roll alts made this something with a decent vet use potential.

It's hard to consider it for new players when their the ones having to spend cash for it rather than their ability to do so making it for them. And we're talking about something that we now know to have a base cost of a bit under 1/4th of a PLEX before the markey even has a vhance to say what the SP is actually worth. That's not really anyone friendly much less players without in game assets to eat part f the cost.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1886 - 2016-02-06 05:01:57 UTC
As much as I would love to see this program wither and die I have to say this price point is absurd. 2 PLEX to move 3.5m sp? A slightly bigger cut than the character bazaar, no?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1887 - 2016-02-06 05:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Natsuko Kanami wrote:
Natsuko Kanami wrote:
It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101.


Called it :D Obvious tactics are obvious.

I wonder if now the people who were claiming that this will be great for newbies and all us bitter old vets were just complaining for nothing still think this is going to help newbies.

Malcanis's Law comes to mind.
This isn't a case of Malcanis' law. The pricing helps no one really. The cost for reallocating or consolidating, 2 vet centric applications, is beyond my willingness to entertain and I doubt I'm the only one. They could still be useful in alt creation, but that parallels the expected benefit to new players, just with a known and IMHO higher than healthy cost.

So unless Malc's law was recently revised to "Expensive for everybody" this doesn't fit.


Nope, not wiggling out like that. The pricing might not suit you, but it suits me fine. I got some alts I can drain for a nice profit now without having that profit lowered because of the alt's name or the alts lack of trained support skills (which is why I haven't sold those unused alts in the character bazaar). It will help people with establish in game wallets (me) and people with establish out of game wallets (disposable income whale types). Not gonna help new players at all.

That's the definition of Malc's Law.

Welcome to the inevitable outcome of your way of thinking.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1888 - 2016-02-06 05:04:13 UTC
beakerax wrote:
As much as I would love to see this program wither and die I have to say this price point is absurd. 2 PLEX to move 3.5m sp? A slightly bigger cut than the character bazaar, no?

These items will collect a lot of dust in the AUR store hahahahahahahaLol
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1889 - 2016-02-06 05:05:55 UTC
I thought any nonzero AUR cost was excessive, but then I remembered there are real labor costs for developing the mechanic, bug fixing, and customer service / ticket support related to the transactions. Discounting those operating costs would be bad accounting just like high sec industrialists who discount their time as "free." It was ambiguous to say "the value is in the SP" but overall I think the AUR cost is fair.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1890 - 2016-02-06 05:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nope, not wiggling out like that. The pricing might not suit you, but it suits me fine. I got some alts I can drain for a nice profit now without having that profit lowered because of the alt's name or the alts lack of trained support skills (which is why I haven't sold those unused alts in the character bazaar).

Welcome to the inevitable outcome of your way of thinking.
This doesn't abide by my way of thinking as evidenced by that and other post I've made. But hey, don't let the actual content of my posts get in the way of your narrative I suppose. The inevitable result of my way of thinking would have resulted in a much lower price point rather than something comparable to the price of creating the SP itself, as I've stated numerous times on at least 4 threads.

Remember Jen, hard as it may be to realize CCP isn't stuck with boolean choices of "this price or nothing at all." Each aspect was independent of the others with plenty of room to do it correctly.

Rain6637 wrote:
I thought any nonzero AUR cost was excessive, but then I remembered there are real labor costs for developing the mechanic, bug fixing, and customer service / ticket support related to the transactions. Discounting those operating costs would be bad accounting just like high sec industrialists who discount their time as "free." It was ambiguous to say "the value is in the SP" but overall I think the AUR cost is fair.
The development of the mechanic seems trivial compared to other changes of greater magnitude and gameplay effect, yet we don't see direct associated cost recovery there. That makes this a reasoning I can't really buy. I had no issue with a non-zero cost, but was of the opinion that the stated goals favored moving it to a low price point not comparable with the price points CCP has already placed on gaining SP normally (training certs).
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1891 - 2016-02-06 05:16:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nope, not wiggling out like that. The pricing might not suit you, but it suits me fine. I got some alts I can drain for a nice profit now without having that profit lowered because of the alt's name or the alts lack of trained support skills (which is why I haven't sold those unused alts in the character bazaar).

Welcome to the inevitable outcome of your way of thinking.
This doesn't abide by my way of thinking as evidenced by that and other post I've made. But hey, don't let the actual content of my posts get in the way of your narrative I suppose. The inevitable result of my way of thinking would have resulted in a much lower price point rather than something comparable to the price of creating the SP itself, as I've stated numerous times on at least 4 threads.


Not so much talking about the price, more talking about your inability to understand the reasons some of us don't like the general idea. Now you will get to live with the consequences of your way of thinking, as the feature you were so gung ho about does nothing you wanted to and benefits ...folks like me who otherwise would not have benefitted.

Like I said, the Character Bazaar was balanced by it's faults and the fact that it is a necessary evil (against illegal character trading). Wise folk understand that trying to legitimize and monetize something that only exists as a necessary evil turns that thing into nothing but an 'actual evil'. In this case, the rich will get richer, the poor and new will suffer (as the gap between them and folks like me that can speed up training with a couple of injectors per month).

You would have seen it coming had you not been so obstinate.
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
#1892 - 2016-02-06 05:20:24 UTC
Oh CCP, you never learn, do you? One would think you have learned your lesson with Monoclegate, and then you decide to suicide gank yourself even harder.

I hope you'll enjoy your short influx of cash, because you'll start to lose more than you gain in the following months as subscription numbers drop off. I re-PLEXed a few days ago for one last time to tie up some loose ends with people before I ragequit, but I regret even doing that much. You don't deserve a single cent.

You're opening Pandora's box of cancer, and there is no going back. You're pushing the big, red self-destruct button for what is probably the best game ever created. There will not be another EVE for many years to come, despite your futile attempts to re-create something this great with your pet projects.

I'm off to play Blade & Soul. It's almost a joke putting that game in the same context as EVE. In comparison, it's simplistic, plain, not challenging at all, has no depth to it, and the endgame is boring. A braindead monkey can probably play it well. But guess what? It kills time, it's free to play and still not pay to win, and the company running it doesn't intentionally self-destruct it to squeeze out another buck from all the idiots willing to tolerate that.

For my parting words, I'll rephrase a proverb for you:
"When the last core mechanic has been raped, the last challenge made easier, the last player unsubscribed, only then will you realize that one cannot milk a dead game."
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1893 - 2016-02-06 05:20:38 UTC
oh god smugness overload
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1894 - 2016-02-06 05:21:50 UTC
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1895 - 2016-02-06 05:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Jenn aSide wrote:
Not so much talking about the price, more talking about your inability to understand the reasons some of us don't like the general idea. Now you will get to live with the consequences of your way of thinking, as the feature you were so gung ho about does nothing you wanted to and benefits ...folks like me who otherwise would not have benefitted.

Like I said, the Character Bazaar was balanced by it's faults and the fact that it is a necessary evil (against illegal character trading). Wise folk understand that trying to legitimize and monetize something that only exists as a necessary evil turns that thing into nothing but an 'actual evil'. In this case, the rich will get richer, the poor and new will suffer (as the gap between them and folks like me that can speed up training with a couple of injectors per month).

You would have seen it coming had you not been so obstinate.
I understand the reasons many didn't like it.

They're still rooted in the same false overvaluation of SP and the attempts to twist a sense of fairness from a mechanically enforced inequality. This doesn't change that.

Further you're back to your imaginings about some advantage I would have anticipated you wouldn't get when again I've on several posts stated there is plenty of room for vet use, before the 80m+ bracket got boosted.

You still speak about the Bazaar being necessary
You for some reason seem to think it wasn't already a monetization of an "evil"
You think you actually understood what I expected from vets regardless of the price
You think CCPs pricing actually validates the objections of those who overvalue SP

And yet none of this is actually the case.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1896 - 2016-02-06 05:44:12 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Natsuko can't hear you, they're playing Blade & Soul.

my remark was actually directed at Jenn
but things worked out ok I guess

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
They're still rooted in the same false overvaluation of SP and the attempts to twist a sense of fairness from a mechanically enforced inequality.

wow those sound like very bad people, it's a good thing ccp didn't listen to them
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1897 - 2016-02-06 05:46:49 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
They're still rooted in the same false overvaluation of SP and the attempts to twist a sense of fairness from a mechanically enforced inequality.

wow those sound like very bad people, it's a good thing ccp didn't listen to them
Indeed, though it's unfortunate that they still found a way to avoid achieving their stated goals.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1898 - 2016-02-06 05:59:55 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
it's unfortunate that they still found a way to avoid achieving their stated goals.

truly, no-one could have anticipated this
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1899 - 2016-02-06 06:04:09 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
it's unfortunate that they still found a way to avoid achieving their stated goals.

truly, no-one could have anticipated this
The problem is this wasn't an inevitable result, but it is one that I now agree with given the AUR cost presented. But the root of this being an issue was that it was entirely avoidable. It wasn't something inherent to the idea, but is the likely result of one specific independent factor.

But I suppose we'll all see how this really plays out.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1900 - 2016-02-06 06:19:31 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
But I suppose we'll all see how this really plays out.

This is true.

I'm not fully convinced the twitter image was the official price announcement anyways.