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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1721 - 2016-01-31 21:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants).



In that case, the formula is:

(1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup

Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup

Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup


So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup).

The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing.


It's not nothing bro. I've already broke a tree in my back yard over this with a kick of my righteous fury alone. Then crushed the fallen bark with mah bare hands. I have four more CCP! Don't make me do it! And how did you get such a high AUR price? Curious.

::edit:: never mind. I see the "if" now. Still, how do you suppose it will be so high? This lands far too near to the grubby grab i've mentioned before and being at a not very attractive price point. Too high or too low and it goes down a bad bad road::
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#1722 - 2016-01-31 21:19:22 UTC
Alea wrote:
My main gripe with SP trading as I understand it is that people with a greater expendable income can buy SP then will be able to out perform others who can not, given that both payers start off with similar amounts of SP, how is that no pay to win.? It's pay to out advance players with no extra income at the very least.

According to the supporters, skill trading is not P2W because skill points dont matter in PvP. Absolutely everything depends on pilot skill. Having max skills for a Svipul at day 1 doesnt give you any advantage over all the other newbies in their badly skilled T1 frigs.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1723 - 2016-01-31 21:29:42 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants).



In that case, the formula is:

(1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup

Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup

Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup


So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup).

The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing.


The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1724 - 2016-01-31 21:56:41 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:


The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.



The bazaar character transfer charge is arbitrary. I don't think the AUR injector price needs to show any consideration for what I think is pretty much a handling fee to keep transfers serious and make up the cost of time.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1725 - 2016-01-31 22:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.

Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.

Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.

Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?
I'm supposing this gold ammo is also produced through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters and can only be sold on the in game market but never directly by CCP (save the ability to produce as normal but in parallel)? If so then no it's not P2W as everyone has access to it just by being able to play, CCP isn't even selling it in a way not attached to time, and there are available in game means to afford the portion made tradable without even thinking about reaching for a CC. And even in the case you are using a CC someone has to be making the isk and willing to give it to you for the system to work.

Basically the reason it's ok goes well beyond just the definition of winning, though that is a part of it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1726 - 2016-01-31 22:25:22 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.

Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.

Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.

Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?


It is clearly 'Pay-for-advantage' rather than P2W on an individual level (all skills for any career top out at V's of course). Where it becomes P"W is that the player with more wealth can have all V's in many career's much more rapidly.

Worse than this is the impact on big/wealthy alliances. They can now provide SP-SRP for tech III cruisers, or SP packs to perfect PvE skills in return for rental charges. This can only be bad for smaller alliances and corporations.

This is of course ignoring the removal of the character creation side of the game. And where would the tipping point be for the ratio of all V's characters (per career) and new players before they cry 'Get rid of skills all together!' I can't help but think this will be the thin end of the monetization wedge but we'll see in time.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1727 - 2016-01-31 22:46:19 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.

Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.

Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.

Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?
I'm supposing this gold ammo is also produced through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters and can only be sold on the in game market but never directly by CCP (save the ability to produce as normal but in parallel)? If so then no it's not P2W as everyone has access to it just by being able to play, CCP isn't even selling it in a way not attached to time, and there are available in game means to afford the portion made tradable without even thinking about reaching for a CC. And even in the case you are using a CC someone has to be making the isk and willing to give it to you for the system to work.

Basically the reason it's ok goes well beyond just the definition of winning, though that is a part of it.


By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.

Not buying the argument
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1728 - 2016-01-31 22:49:07 UTC
What is lacking, imo, is an ISK sink component to the extractors/injectors. That would actually be good for the overall economy, and I could actually support this new mechanic as being good for the game.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1729 - 2016-01-31 23:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:


By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.

Not buying the argument
No, that would be P2W because it doesn't abide by the same rules. In that case you're still creating something exclusively sold by CCP rather than something which exclusively exists as a function of a paid account that no one has to exhert effort or pay anything additional to obtain for themselves.

The logic I presented doesn't allow for that: the BPO/BPC isn't "produced (or obtained) through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters." SP on the other hand does abide by that since every paying account can produce it.

How hard is this concept? If you have to pay CCP directly for the item or ability it crosses a line, especially in the case that that transaction is the exclusive source, but neither of those are effectively true here since everyone who can play the game can also train.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1730 - 2016-01-31 23:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaldi Tsukaya
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:


By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.

Not buying the argument
No, that would be P2W because it doesn't abide by the same rules. In that case you're still creating something exclusively sold by CCP rather than something which exclusively exists as a function of a paid account that no one has to exhert effort or pay anything additional to obtain for themselves.

The logic I presented doesn't allow for that: the BPO/BPC isn't "produced (or obtained) through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters." SP on the other hand does abide by that since every paying account can produce it.

How hard is this concept? If you have to pay CCP directly for the item or ability it crosses a line, especially in the case that that transaction is the exclusive source, but neither of those are effectively true here since everyone who can play the game can also train.


No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint)

edit.
Put the extractors in the LP stores.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1731 - 2016-01-31 23:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint)
No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1732 - 2016-01-31 23:39:39 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint)
No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated.


But I can amass the materials required for the ammo print.
Same thing.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1733 - 2016-01-31 23:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint)
No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated.


But I can amass the materials required for the ammo print.
Same thing.
Skills you can use are the same as ammo that doesn't exist and as such can't be used?

What?

Edit: Also do you realize you've deviated from the initial claim of P2W being that "through the use of cash > PLEX > isk > sikll injectors one can buy an advantage and thus it's P2W"? You've now gone to "the ability to purchase the tool to decrease you're characters SP and create an item from it is P2W" if I'm understanding?

Edit 2:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Put the extractors in the LP stores.
The funny part of this suggestion is that it wouldn't actually address the P2W claim I responded to initially as it originated from something unrelated to the extractor cost.

I'd be all for it, but really, as explained in the first edit, that's not what most people are calling P2W about this suggestion. What their calling P2W is an aspect of the economy created by PLEX, but only when applied in conjunction with this idea.
Vile Swan
Z.odiac Signs
#1734 - 2016-01-31 23:57:46 UTC
I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#1735 - 2016-02-01 00:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaldi Tsukaya
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Skills you can use are the same as ammo that doesn't exist and as such can't be used?

What?

Edit: Also do you realize you've deviated from the initial claim of P2W being that "through the use of cash > PLEX > isk > sikll injectors one can buy an advantage and thus it's P2W"? You've now gone to "the ability to purchase the tool to decrease you're characters SP and create an item from it is P2W" if I'm understanding?


Skills are like the materials required for manufacturing an item in a blueprint
The skill extractor is akin to the blueprint itself
the skill injector is the item made

CCP exclusively sells the extractor for AUR.
My analogy is that they could sell blueprints for gold ammo, and it would be the same.

And no, my opinion hasn't changed. But I accept that it is coming no matter what I think.
It would just be more acceptable to make it less P2W

Mulcanis law will allow this new mechanic to be used to benefit the wealthy the most.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1736 - 2016-02-01 00:14:50 UTC
Vile Swan wrote:
I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?


There is onpy one limit mate, it's your wallet rl or ing no matter though.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1737 - 2016-02-01 00:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Skills are like the materials required for manufacturing an item in a blueprint
The skill extractor is akin to the blueprint itself
the skill injector is the item made

CCP exclusively sells the extractor for AUR.
My analogy is that they could sell blueprints for gold ammo, and it would be the same.

And no, my opinion hasn't changed. But I accept that it is coming no matter what I think.
It would just be more acceptable to make it less P2W
No, you've got this backwards, skills are the end product. Skilled characters are the training end game, not extractors or injectors. Injectors are just SP which are currently removed from skills and rendered unused but transferrable.

Injectors are NOT advantageous in themselves like gold ammo, only skills are, but unlike your gold ammo scenario, skills have no "BPC" apart from the books themselves which are in game items. So if gold ammo was restricted to the same mechanism: I can produce it myself from nothing and need no BPC I can't get in game and can use it on the character I produced it, then it becomes analogous.

But your BPC doesn't meet those criteria since I need to specifically buy it from CCP (on top of requiring other materials which skills do not.), no matter how much you refuse to accept that simple, demonstrable logic.

Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Mulcanis law will allow this new mechanic to be used to benefit the wealthy the most.
Ok, but that's not related to this or disputed. Also you misspelled his name.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1738 - 2016-02-01 00:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zozoll Neblyn
Tipa Riot wrote:
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants).



In that case, the formula is:

(1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup

Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup

Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup


So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup).

The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing.


The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX


Injectors will always cost more than 1/4 PLEX to make, though. (After all is taken into account, anyway.)

The minimum cost to make an injector os 1/4 PLEX + the Extractor.

Quote:
, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.



The formula tells you the highest price it can reach. It can go lower, but it can't go higher, or not for very long anyway.

If it went higher, then players would buy plex, use farms to convert them into extractors, and sell them at a profit. If the profit of that ever gets very high, there will be a rush to exploit the available profit. Supply will rise until the market gets flooded to the point where the price drops back down.

If the price is lower than that, farming will be unprofitable. Most of the injectors that go on the market will be from players scrubbing off skills they don't want, or scrap heaping alts before they biomass them. After the first few months, the market would slow down quite a lot. Not a lot of players would be selling injectors.


The Aurum price is the key. If it's a high Aurum price, then you're looking at paying quite a lot for your SP. Straight subbing will always remain the most price effective way to increase your skills.

It only appeals to the impatient.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1739 - 2016-02-01 01:17:11 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.



Good point about the Char transfer cost. Scrap heaping characters by making Injectorss from them has to be more profitable than selling the character on the Bazaar, or there won't be any scrap heaping.

There are basically only three sources for Injectors:


  • - SP farms (where the SP need to sell for 1/4 Plex at least)
  • - Scrap heaping (where the SP need to sell for more than the price would have been in Character Bazaar, after paying the transfer fee.)

    • and
  • - House Cleaning (which has no minimum price, because a player is simply selling unwanted SP).



If the price drops below the first two limits, then injectors will only be provided by housecleaning, and the supply would be very limited. (After the first few months.)

If the price rises above the SP farm limit, then supply will be effectively unlimited because an unlimited number of SP farm accounts can be created.
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1740 - 2016-02-01 01:44:12 UTC
Vile Swan wrote:
I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?


Will probably only be limited by how much money you want to throw at it, as it seems CCP needs the money, that's the only logical reason way this would be implemented.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.