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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1661 - 2016-01-29 16:44:22 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

No. There is still the opportunity cost of not getting the better/new skills.

Just because something does not involved some sort of currency does not mean there is no cost.

There are a lot of specialized alts who don't need a lot of SP. So why should I subscribe them if I can PLEX them with the ISK I get for the SP I dont need anyway? This will indeed result in free alts.

Evil RatKid
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1662 - 2016-01-29 16:50:59 UTC
gascanu wrote:
i'm sorry, but when are you guys announcing the prices of the extractors? why this "secret"? in about 10 days we will have these things on live server and none know the price yet. wth is going on?

Take a peek at the PLEX store. This PLEX sale will end on the 31st of January. I wouldn't be surprised if the the extractor prices become known on the 1st of February. But then I'm cynical...

By the way, skill extractors and injectors are live on Singularity. You can watch JonnyPew using the new system in this Skill Transfer Video (YouTube).
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1663 - 2016-01-29 17:02:02 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

No. There is still the opportunity cost of not getting the better/new skills.

Just because something does not involved some sort of currency does not mean there is no cost.

There are a lot of specialized alts who don't need a lot of SP. So why should I subscribe them if I can PLEX them with the ISK I get for the SP I dont need anyway? This will indeed result in free alts.



I'd hate to say, I told you so. The biggest difference between the injector and plex is complex. Plex is pretty straight forward: You pay a slight increase of the value of a single month of subscription at the most expensive package rate, by single month. Extractors, on the other hand, shares a relationship with plex indirectly by the very thing only plex can provide: The SP of an active skill queue.

The amount of Isk in game is something we cannot determine. The existence of pilots that can sub their accounts for untold years exist, but what would be the incentive for this? Whether they are kept active on a monthly basis or yearly, there is no difference. Now, with extractors, you've introduced not only a sink for this, but a motivator for what has accumulated over the years for no other purpose than that it could. The value of SP cannot be determined, because every pilot has different goals, expectations, ambitions. Some will have little value for SP while others would give all their attention to it. That it's why it can destabilize and go whichever way. Set it low cost and you introduce chaos into the system. Nothing can predict what will happen on the whole.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1664 - 2016-01-29 17:08:55 UTC
Officer Pressly wrote:



This comming from a group of players that denies its members to fly anything but frigates, and only enables them to fly cruisers after a couple months. I think you are just afraid this will ruin your type of keeping your members the way you want them kept.



The Open University of Celestial Hardship is a training corp!

We do not "keep" our members, we train them, and they move on to other corps, many of which respect our methods and welcome our graduates.

Our mission is to train people who are new to PVP, and to show them that you do not have to use or lose expensive ships to take your first steps into null sec.

Those who prefer to fly and lose expensive ships while learning do not need our help to do so.
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
#1665 - 2016-01-29 17:29:06 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game.
This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.

If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.

Silly


I'm not really sure it'll reach PLEX prices. The whole thing is geared towards new players whom are typically poor and can't really afford PLEX for ISK to begin with.
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#1666 - 2016-01-29 17:34:02 UTC
Rofl at all the pay2win qq. This is not pay2win. Plex is more pay2win than this. Plex enables pilots to afford modules and ships they might not be able to afford otherwise and bypass virtually all aspects of the eve pve system if one chooses. This change to the skill point system simply allows pilots to have more options to fly at an increased rate then previously allowed. It's not like injectors inject real life piloting skill to the user lol. For years vets have stated "skill points don't matter real lifepilot skill does". Now lots of these same people are whining. Honestly the skill point system in its current iteration is so antiquated at this point I'm surprised it hasn't evolved sooner.

That said the main selling point from CCP has been this is for new players. So here's to hoping you keep your word and set the aurum price cheap enough that it actually allows newbros to take advantage of this change.
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
#1667 - 2016-01-29 18:05:01 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Rofl at all the pay2win qq. This is not pay2win. Plex is more pay2win than this. Plex enables pilots to afford modules and ships they might not be able to afford otherwise and bypass virtually all aspects of the eve pve system if one chooses.

Except they couldn't use them without the required skill points. Now they can just buy those as well.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1668 - 2016-01-29 19:10:49 UTC
Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.

You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1669 - 2016-01-29 19:39:23 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.

You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.
This is a non-issue, I have perfect pilots for most of those use cases NOW while still having even more perfect use cases and NO extractor cost to realize them. What you're basically saying is that players being able to have perfect skills for a given ship is broken, but that makes training itself broken over time. And ignores that brokenness is already realized.

You're also contradicting your prior point regarding low extractor prices causing manipulation that results in general unaffordability. How can we have enough of these perfect skilled pilots floating around when per your claim SP won't be available to keep those SP swaps from shriveling the total SP those characters have and lack the ability to purchase more?

Also to your prior post no, PLEX is not just game time anymore. It's also an AUR souce, meaning it's price reflects demand from every possible use including extractor purchase, meaning that the higher the extractor cost, the more strain there is on PLEX. If PLEXing for a "free" account by selling SP becomes a norm through being economically viable rest assured high extractor prices WILL NOT BE A DETERING FACTOR beyond how much you have to invest before the first extractor purchase. After that every sale pays you back that cost to spend again on the next one on top of gains for PLEXing game time.
Dibz
Doomheim
#1670 - 2016-01-29 19:57:30 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
we know the extractor prices


When are you going to tell us then?
Josef Djugashvilis
#1671 - 2016-01-29 21:13:44 UTC
Dibz wrote:
CCP Quant wrote:
we know the extractor prices


When are you going to tell us then?


They want you to hand over your wallet before they tell you Smile

This is not a signature.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1672 - 2016-01-29 21:44:32 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dibz wrote:
CCP Quant wrote:
we know the extractor prices


When are you going to tell us then?


They want you to hand over your wallet before they tell you Smile


more like they are not sure how high can push the price before causing some uproar...
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1673 - 2016-01-29 21:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.

You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.
This is a non-issue, I have perfect pilots for most of those use cases NOW while still having even more perfect use cases and NO extractor cost to realize them. What you're basically saying is that players being able to have perfect skills for a given ship is broken, but that makes training itself broken over time. And ignores that brokenness is already realized.


You seem to apply all deductions to yourself. It has nothing to do with you but everything to do with the new pilots or the alts that they can create on the 2nd or 3rd box of a single account, all while training up their main to do whatever it is they wish. The ping goes out, they sign off and back on to their un-paid alt with perfect skills in a ship that is ALWAYS going to be useful. This has changed the landscape of warfare by increasing the value and potential of every new pilot, thus making an already exceptional force even more powerful.


Tyberius Franklin wrote:
You're also contradicting your prior point regarding low extractor prices causing manipulation that results in general unaffordability. How can we have enough of these perfect skilled pilots floating around when per your claim SP won't be available to keep those SP swaps from shriveling the total SP those characters have and lack the ability to purchase more?



Like I said before, one thing applies to the short term, another thing entirely to the long term. Availability of the injectors will be just stupid. Whey even make an estimation? It is a given. If they are cheap, be ready for the floodgates to open. The lowest they will go for will be determined by how valuable they are to the rich and not how many there will be.


Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Also to your prior post no, PLEX is not just game time anymore. It's also an AUR souce, meaning it's price reflects demand from every possible use including extractor purchase, meaning that the higher the extractor cost, the more strain there is on PLEX. If PLEXing for a "free" account by selling SP becomes a norm through being economically viable rest assured high extractor prices WILL NOT BE A DETERING FACTOR beyond how much you have to invest before the first extractor purchase. After that every sale pays you back that cost to spend again on the next one on top of gains for PLEXing game time.



I give it one year until those who plex will not be able to afford the plex, and those that plex will reach a frustration point that they refuse to plex, leading to even higher costs and scarcity. At this point it is the 1% that will truly shine and perhaps be the only source for the SP farming, as their accounts will be paid far in advance that they will have little concern over the state of affairs with PLEX economy. If I were they, I would reserve my brain drains and pick up the cheap injectors from every other nub that sells cheaply in the offset.

In conclusion. The fact that we are having a discussion about SP farming as a renewable income stream says more about how you just do not understand that this outcome is bad and that it is unavoidable with a low cost extractor.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1674 - 2016-01-29 22:24:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Oreb Wing wrote:
[You seem to apply all deductions to yourself. It has nothing to do with you but everything to do with the new pilots or the alts that they can create on the 2nd or 3rd box of a single account, all while training up their main to do whatever it is they wish. The ping goes out, they sign off and back on to their un-paid alt with perfect skills in a ship that is ALWAYS going to be useful. This has changed the landscape of warfare by increasing the value and potential of every new pilot, thus making an already exceptional force even more powerful.
It's no different whether it's me or another character. It's it's not broken for a character to max out a ship it's not broken for every character to max out that same ship. That doesn't change based on point of context or number of alts. It also draw no relevance from method of payment, and do remember all accounts are paid.

Further the ability to enhance usefulness of characters is an intended consequence.

Quote:
Like I said before, one thing applies to the short term, another thing entirely to the long term. Availability of the injectors will be just stupid. Whey even make an estimation? It is a given. If they are cheap, be ready for the floodgates to open. The lowest they will go for will determined by how valuable they are to the rich and not how many there will be...

...I give it one year until those who plex will not be able to afford the plex, and those that plex will reach a frustration point that they refuse to plex, leading to even higher costs and scarcity. At this point it is the 1% that will truly shine and perhaps be the only source for the SP farming, as their accounts will be paid far in advance that they will have little concern over state of affairs with PLEX economy. If I were they, I would reserve my brain drains and pick up the cheap extractors from every other nub that sells cheaply in the offset.

In conclusion. The fact that we are having a discussion about SP farming as a renewable income stream says more about how you just do not understand that this outcome is bad and that it is unavoidable with a low cost extractor.
The fact that you think a high extractor price prevents or reduces farming evidences how you just don't understand the mechanics at play. Extractors could be a whole PLEX each and not affect the method of farming. It just means I need 1.2B to begin and price the injector at or over ~ 1.6B. Now I've made my next extractor purchase and part of the next PLEX. Repeat as SP becomes available and adjust sale price for PLEX price changes.

And here's the irony in your plan. PLEX gives AUR, AUR buys extractors, so higher AUR cost per extractor means more PLEX consumed per farmer, which means more upward drive on PLEX prices. @ 500AUR/extractor that means each farmer consumes ~1.6 PLEX/month. @ 100AUR that drops to 1.1 PLEX/month. You're trying to sell the idea that an over 40% increase in PLEX use per farmer somehow leads to more affordable PLEX?

Or do you just think farming will be reduced by a high AUR price? That someone won't won't ride PLEX prices to the highest possible point, and be fuether assisted with manipulated price points on injectors, which would be further enabled from limited stock due to a lack of farmers? High extractor costs are a no win. There's no situation where they play out to a majority benefit for anyone invilved with extractors, injectors or PLEX. Well, actually sellers of PLEX will make out like bandits because the high AUR cost just increases all manner of demand for their product.

You're goals don't make sense. You want to prevent injector manipulation through high prices (as if PLEX wasn't evidence that that doesn't work), while reducing extractor availability through cost (trying to disincentivize farmers) and making a smaller supply that's easier to control. And somehow you expect that the increased need for AUR to not have an adverse effect on PLEX prices despite them being a source of AUR. How does any of that create a positive effect?
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1675 - 2016-01-29 22:43:29 UTC
It's their ratio in respects to PLEX. If the income is offset by a margin then the viability of SP farming is reduced because more comes out of pocket to sustain the farming. I don't know who it was that thinks there will be many directly paid accounts that are SP farming focused.

Worst case scenario is when plex begins to sell at a loss from when it was purchased. Also, if the extractors sell low, the injectors will be in high demand because of their price point. Now, I don't consider myself Eve rich, but even I will use them if they are 300m. Why not? That, sir, is the ultimate question. Price will dictate demand and any noob that is desperate and impatient will see they are worth the investment of money, even if it is at twice the cost of just waiting on the paid sub. It will still serve its role but not be so widely abused.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1676 - 2016-01-29 22:48:42 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
It's their ratio in respects to PLEX. If the income is offset by a margin then the viability of SP farming is reduced because more comes out of pocket to sustain the farming. I don't know who it was that thinks there will be many directly paid accounts that are SP farming focused.

Worst case scenario is when plex begins to sell at a loss from when it was purchased. Also, if the extractors sell low, the injectors will be in high demand because of their price point. Now, I don't consider myself Eve rich, but even I will use them if they are 300m. Why not? That, sir, is the ultimate question. Price will dictate demand and any noob that is desperate and impatient will see they are worth the investment of money, even if it is at twice the cost of just waiting on the paid sub. It will still serve its role but not be so widely abused.
That assumes the cost isn't passed on to the market. There doesn't seem to be any reason to make that assumption unless you're assuming a near-fixed injector price. If you view them as elastic you have to consider the possibility that they just expand to any added cost, especially with the high point of initial demand.
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
#1677 - 2016-01-29 22:52:57 UTC
Dibz wrote:
CCP Quant wrote:
we know the extractor prices


When are you going to tell us then?

It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1678 - 2016-01-29 23:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Natsuko Kanami wrote:
Dibz wrote:
CCP Quant wrote:
we know the extractor prices


When are you going to tell us then?

It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101.


At 1,000 AUR, your best choice would be to spend 20 €/$ in a 3,600 AUR package. With the premium of 435 AUR that would be 4,035 AUR / 4 extractors +35 AUR for the price of a PLEX, and would render the 900 AUR package completely uninteresting for skill trading.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1679 - 2016-01-29 23:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Dibz wrote:
CCP Quant wrote:
we know the extractor prices


When are you going to tell us then?


They like a child who just broken his toy but scared to tell about it to his parents.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
#1680 - 2016-01-30 00:04:58 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
At 1,000 AUR, your best choice would be to spend 20 €/$ in a 3,600 AUR package. With the premium of 435 AUR that would be 4,035 AUR / 4 extractors +35 AUR for the price of a PLEX, and would render the 900 AUR package completely uninteresting for skill trading.

True, but that's assuming everyone will be buying these with cash. I imagine a large percentage of players who don't have a lot of IRL cash will be buying PLEX via ISK and converting to AUR. And you can be sure that CCP has the exact numbers of people paying subscriptions via cash vs ISK and have taken that into account.