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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Anabuki Tomoko
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#1001 - 2016-01-22 19:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabuki Tomoko
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
and ... How much did that .25 PLEX cost.... you know .... the one which cost doesn't depend on how it was purchased


What they are trying to say is that "PLEX" is a variable.

They're saying that the cost will be x / 4, where X is the price of plex at the time that you're looking at it. If the going market price for PLEX in Jita is still 1 billion, then x / 4 = 250 million. If the cost of plex doubles, then x/4 = 500 million.

0.25 * PLEX is a function. f(x)=x/4. f(plex)= plex * 0.25.

Do you understand? They're trying to include all those price variables, whether you get a 6 pack or 12 pack or subscription or whatever, into one formula.



Do you actually have to use PLEX in the creation process?

nope
https://www.themittani.com/news/skill-trading-coming-february

from what i'm reading you can either get it in the AUR store. or off the market. (when players sell it.)

PLEX doesn't seem to show up anywhere for this other than the normal subscription time, and the cost of training alts if they want "SP Farmer alts"




and in the comments. fearlesslittletoaster said
I was at the round table on this at Eve Vegas, and CCP Seagull explained her overall approach to monetization in Eve. I need to get an article written, which is dependent on some other stuff so it hasn't happened yet. Suffice to say that as long as Seagull is in charge there will be no gold ammo, and no other real world money mechanic that would give a player an advantage in the game that others couldn't get without spending real money.





so this is just a non plex alternative to the character bazaar, where you can focus on your own character instead of buying someone elses character where you are forced to take their name, appearence, and rep.




price will be entirely dependant on what the playerbase decides depending on the AUR price for injector + SP price.



< 5 million total skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints per injector
5 million – 50 million total skillpoints = 400,000 skillpoints per injector
50 million – 80 million total skillpoints = 300,000 skillpoints per injector (Changed from 200,0000)
> 80 million skillpoints = 150,000 skillpoints per injector (Changed from 50,000)

^increased by player request.
Astralum
Blackrift Corporation
#1002 - 2016-01-22 19:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Astralum
I can see what CCP is trying there after reading some interesting commments.

This is what I think the long set strategy of CCP is:

1. Person A with way too many SP will purchase the Skill Extractors with ISK from Person B that has a low Isk income that bought the Extractor with real money

2. After getting the Skill Packet Person A extract 500k SP he doesn't need at all and sells the Skill Packet to Person B for a way higher price as he sold the Skill Extractor, maybe forcing Person B to buy a Plex

This will be the Cashcow Idea of CCP but maybe not everything about this is just colored in red. Let's see the green site of this Patch.

1. Person A with way too many SP that doesn't know what to skill anymore will stop the onward flowing SP river by buying an Extractor and milk the over and over skilled uselles SP to sell the Skill Packet for a good price.

2. Person B will have the chance to catch up SP with well skilled players (not to veterans but to well skilled players)

In this case you get a long awaited longterm balance of SP and CCP gets another way to be supported in theyr long living project known as EVE ONLINE.

TO THE PPL CRYING .... no one will force you to buy any of this for real money.

Thank you for reading :)
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#1003 - 2016-01-22 20:34:21 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:

I responded to someone who used the titan pilot as an example.
The same applies to any other ship or skill.

try to think about it not from an experienced player's perspective

but from a new player.


we get into the game, we get the basic stuff......and then we have 2 weeks of NOTHING until we can use more ships.

2 weeks PER ship. (cov ops, t3 destroyers, mining barge)
and thats not even including all of the skills needed to make them useful (like covert ops, or basic weapon skills)


those 2 weeks are a major reason its hard to get into the game, as people leave cause they get bored w8ing.


with skill points to buy, i can spend my time mining in venture, while using that ore to sell for isk, to buy skill points, to make the 2 weeks turn into 5 days.

and thus, i'm being encouraged to PLAY.

More like encouraged to PAY. Do you really think newbies with their terrible ISK/h ratio will be able to afford skill injectors? Skill injectors will probably be a new gold item for the space rich, with inflated prices like PLEX.

If you really want to help new players, give them more start SP and a free, indestructible cerebral accelerator for the first year.

This whole skill trading feature seems like a cash grab. A few years ago CCP learned that players dont like blatant P2W (gold ammo), so they are trying a lighter, less unbalanced version of it: Pay 2 Progress Faster (than others).
Anabuki Tomoko
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#1004 - 2016-01-22 20:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabuki Tomoko
Algarion Getz wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:

I responded to someone who used the titan pilot as an example.
The same applies to any other ship or skill.

try to think about it not from an experienced player's perspective

but from a new player.


we get into the game, we get the basic stuff......and then we have 2 weeks of NOTHING until we can use more ships.

2 weeks PER ship. (cov ops, t3 destroyers, mining barge)
and thats not even including all of the skills needed to make them useful (like covert ops, or basic weapon skills)


those 2 weeks are a major reason its hard to get into the game, as people leave cause they get bored w8ing.


with skill points to buy, i can spend my time mining in venture, while using that ore to sell for isk, to buy skill points, to make the 2 weeks turn into 5 days.

and thus, i'm being encouraged to PLAY.

More like encouraged to PAY. Do you really think newbies with their terrible ISK/h ratio will be able to afford skill injectors? Skill injectors will probably be a new gold item for the space rich, with inflated prices like PLEX.

If you really want to help new players, give them more start SP and a free, indestructible cerebral accelerator for the first year.

This whole skill trading feature seems like a cash grab. A few years ago CCP learned that players dont like blatant P2W (gold ammo), so they are trying a lighter, less unbalanced version of it: Pay 2 Progress Faster (than others).

no.

i've spent 2 weeks mining non stop in because its all i can do.

over those 2 weeks i've mined over 5b. after expenses i still have 4b.


now i face ANOTHER 2 weeks of mining(now in my barge) until i can use a manticore or confessor.

if i could use this 4b i have right now to make that faster. i would GLADLY do it.

but right now, the only thing i have to do is wait for it to train. and mine more and more isk that i have NOTHING to use it for.


i currently own 3 retrievers(one with each jump clone). 2 coventors. 1 procurer. 2 ventures. 1 hurricane, 1 jackdaw, 2 confessors, 3 manticores. (oh right. i forgot. i also have an astero, stratios, and a few other odd ships....very few of which i can get into. and even LESS that have the 1st level of mastery trained because support skills are still in the que after the ship training)

and of them. i can use the 6 barges and the 2 ventures.

i can't use the jackdaw, confessors, or manticores. i bought them cause i've got isk to waste.
(i have the hurricane, but only so much you can do with it in a small corp)







if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.


the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)




P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole....
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#1005 - 2016-01-22 20:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
I think CCP's intention is not so much play to win as to allow newbies buy into the next ship so that they can interact with the game and other players.

Also you will never be able to inject skills cheaper than the cost of training them.

EDIT: I may add that I don't like the system not the intention
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#1006 - 2016-01-22 20:52:58 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.


the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)




P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole....

wat
5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly?
Anabuki Tomoko
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#1007 - 2016-01-22 20:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabuki Tomoko
Algarion Getz wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.


the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)




P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole....

wat
5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly?

variety of stuff we find in the wormhole.

have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection.

that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#1008 - 2016-01-22 21:02:20 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
Algarion Getz wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.


the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)




P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole....

wat
5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly?

variety of stuff we find in the wormhole.

have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection.

that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.


The ABC ores are pretty rich in wormholes but the Angel ruined temple anomaly has a slew of high-end ore that yields more isk/hr - and it has to be scanned before someone can drop on you
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1009 - 2016-01-22 21:10:59 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
Algarion Getz wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.


the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)




P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole....

wat
5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly?

variety of stuff we find in the wormhole.

have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection.

that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.


And how many new players would know how to find a reliable WH group who will take someone completely unknown and give them full orca support whilst sharing the sleeper loot with you that you did nothing to destroy?

Most new players will spend the first few weeks trawling through hisec learning the absolte basics from the careers. This idea dangles the idea of paying to progress in front of them at the time when they are most likely to wave a credit card at the game.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1010 - 2016-01-22 21:20:10 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
And how many new players would know how to find a reliable WH group who will take someone completely unknown and give them full orca support whilst sharing the sleeper loot with you that you did nothing to destroy?

Most new players will spend the first few weeks trawling through hisec learning the absolte basics from the careers. This idea dangles the idea of paying to progress in front of them at the time when they are most likely to wave a credit card at the game.
Career agents + SOE epic arc can be done in a couple weeks even by a new player. This leaves plenty of time to socialize and find a group to work with to earn isk. Giving players relevant reasons to earn isk motivates them to explore options. And worst case the feature can just be ignored for those not interested in raising the isk. CCP dangles PLEX in from of us now, but not everyone is biting. This is no different.
Anabuki Tomoko
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#1011 - 2016-01-22 21:22:57 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
Algarion Getz wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.


the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)




P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole....

wat
5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly?

variety of stuff we find in the wormhole.

have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection.

that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.


And how many new players would know how to find a reliable WH group who will take someone completely unknown and give them full orca support whilst sharing the sleeper loot with you that you did nothing to destroy?

Most new players will spend the first few weeks trawling through hisec learning the absolte basics from the careers. This idea dangles the idea of paying to progress in front of them at the time when they are most likely to wave a credit card at the game.


ok, and when the new players have spent enough time wandering to learn the mechanics of the game. what happens when they reach that point of having nothing to do but w8 for the skill to train.


chances are they'd have some spare money by then (unless they suiciding often)



i'm not saying every new player will do this. but for those of us who get bored w8ing and begin looking for other games to occupy our time because the only thing in eve we can do is w8 for the skill to train. skill injectors are a goal for us to stay in game and do SOMETHING.




even if the player is broke. at least skill injectors provide the feeling there is something you can grind to to speed up the growth process.


cause the worst feeling in game....is the feeling that theres no reason to log on this ENTIRE WEEK because your skill wont be trained up for 9 days.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1012 - 2016-01-22 21:36:08 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:


i've spent 2 weeks mining non stop in because its all i can do.

over those 2 weeks i've mined over 5b. after expenses i still have 4b.


now i face ANOTHER 2 weeks of mining(now in my barge) until i can use a manticore or confessor.



Confirming that if you cannot fly either a manticore or a confessor, literally the only thing you can do is mine. Shocked

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Anabuki Tomoko
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#1013 - 2016-01-22 22:05:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabuki Tomoko
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:


i've spent 2 weeks mining non stop in because its all i can do.

over those 2 weeks i've mined over 5b. after expenses i still have 4b.


now i face ANOTHER 2 weeks of mining(now in my barge) until i can use a manticore or confessor.



Confirming that if you cannot fly either a manticore or a confessor, literally the only thing you can do is mine. Shocked

considering i live in a wh

manticore has cov ops
confessor has 2 secount to warp propulsion mode.

so both are "if people show up, get out" ships


kestrel is....its cheap and affordable. but not much use vs sleepers


hurricane is good vs sleepers, but to easy to ambush when solo. and refitting that thing, moving it to wh, is annoying. (and i'm WAITING on its gunnery skills to be trained....cause medium guns)



i could use stratios, but i dont have skills trained to use much of it yet.....like drone skills. so i'm WAITING on that....(for now...Stratios is a drone recycler. hunting your lost drones and giving them a new home on my ships...which has also earned me 9mill since i started a day ago....yeah, i so bored i lost drone hunting..)
Dusty 3allvalve
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#1014 - 2016-01-22 22:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dusty 3allvalve
CCP Phantom wrote:
A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release.

Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details.

We welcome all your feedback, thank you!


If I may interject on topic, first let me say I am pleased with the concept. I have, however, had a toon collecting dust for months that I would like to harvest before bio-recycle. The toon has way too many skills built up to just kill it. However, limitations will prevent the useful benefits of the change.

If skills (skillbooks studied to 0) cannot be deleted, and prerequisites cannot be extracted, many are going to find themselves highly disappointed. Sure there will be those who gain skills, and the market will gain it's share of unused extractors, but I'm afraid this addition to EvE is not going to help as many people as thought.

What once read that our unused skills that were earned and paid for could be reclaimed, now reads that we can skim off the top and watch the EvE wealthy collectively become further empowered.

I make no claims. These are simply my concerns. I will be anxiously awaiting more details on this matter while I shake in my boots about what I'm going to loose just after the Citadels arrive.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1015 - 2016-01-22 22:51:08 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Do you actually have to use PLEX in the creation process? EDIT: Subs cost for SP + AURUM cost of injector

No, but the price estimate is basically for a "SP farm" run in game (without using real money): 1. You use n PLEX to activate n toons for a month. 2. You convert m PLEX into AUR to buy the needed number of extractors. 3. You extract all the trained SP of the n toons, and sell it on the market for z ISK. Assume a PLEX price of y ISK per PLEX. Then if z>(n+m)*y, you can 4. buy n+m PLEX again at this point and 5. repeat this cycle endlessly, while making a net profit of z-(n+m)*y ISK per month.

Obviously that ignores fluctuation in the ISK price of a PLEX, station taxes, etc. But it is a ballpark estimate for a SP farm, and it makes sense to state its cost in PLEX.
Dusty 3allvalve
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#1016 - 2016-01-22 23:01:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dusty 3allvalve
Tristan Agion wrote:
No, but the price estimate is basically for a "SP farm" run in game (without using real money): 1. You use n PLEX to activate n toons for a month. 2. You convert m PLEX into AUR to buy the needed number of extractors. 3. You extract all the trained SP of the n toons, and sell it on the market for z ISK. Assume a PLEX price of y ISK per PLEX. Then if z>(n+m)*y, you can 4. buy n+m PLEX again at this point and 5. repeat this cycle endlessly, while making a net profit of z-(n+m)*y ISK per month.

Obviously that ignores fluctuation in the ISK price of a PLEX, station taxes, etc. But it is a ballpark estimate for a SP farm, and it makes sense to state its cost in PLEX.


Great post. I will have to look into whether I will have the means.
And though it was not intended, thank you for elaborating on my last post.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#1017 - 2016-01-22 23:05:20 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
One of the arguments in favour of, 'skill points for cash' seems to be that some veterans feel that they have some 'useless' skill points they want to sell, or move to an alt.

I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices.

It is all part of the 'Eve is tough and choices have consequences' mantra that has been a part of Eve since well before I started in early 2007.

It would be interesting to see if any of the current CSM membership have supported this, and why.

And where this years CSM candidates stand on this issue.


With CCP Games ignoring customer feedback on this Major issue, why bother having representatives in the first place X

I will not vote for the next CSM, I will not collaborate to satisfy the Greed of the Suits at this Company, this is Bullsht CCP Evil

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1018 - 2016-01-23 00:20:07 UTC
MiSANTHR0PE wrote:
It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there)



I have never understood why that's allowable, I do own my own (small) business and if my employees used another form of communication other than what I provided to reach our clients after the first warning they would be fired, no matter how good they are/were at there job(s). I do NOT want my clients confused to where they need to go to stay informed or get accurate information, that's just bad business.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.
Emperor Furiosa
Doomheim
#1019 - 2016-01-23 00:25:44 UTC
Alea wrote:
MiSANTHR0PE wrote:
It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there)



I have never understood why that's allowable, I do own my own (small) business and if my employees used another form of communication other than what I provided to reach our clients after the first warning they would be fired, no matter how good they are/were at there job(s). I do NOT want my clients confused to where they need to go to stay informed or get accurate information, that's just bad business.


cuz fozz and rise have ingame player org background and used reddit much often then eve-o forums?
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#1020 - 2016-01-23 00:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeven HouseBenyo
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
so for all of you negative nancies.

instead of crying that the entire idea is bad

how about you NAME what you think is bad about it.



from what i'm seeing, the main thing you people don't like about it is people can buy them in mass to train 1 character to god level.



so instead of wasting your time saying the entire idea is bad, how about you suggest a cap for the max total number of SP before you can't use it anymore?

like once you have (spitballing a number here) 30mill total SP, you can't inject more SP.
or you can't use the inject to train capital level skills.


the inject idea is mostly focused around low SP characters. so CCP might listen to that argument as it doesnt interfere with the primary audience.


see the logic behind this?
best of both worlds.


Negative Nancy over here. Why is it bad?
1. It might not be a straight line pat 2 win, but it does short circuit the whole work for it in time and ISK building when a CC with a high limit allows Plex (flipped for ISK) and Aurum (for the injectors) anyone to be in a Marauder in a couple days, if that long.
2. Plex inflation spikes that much higher, making it that much more difficult for those that buy Plex in a Regional Market to keep their account active. I doubt I'm the only one flying on a very tight RL budget. That runs more out than this Great Idea (tm) will bring in. I've been bumbling around for not quite 2 years, Plex in that time has gone from 750M to a cool B plus change.
3. The howls from the 'bitter vet' brigade when they're perma-blopped by a bunch of R00kies in their fave hunting null systems. PvP enjoyment does get shallow when everything you have is blown from underneath your shiny new Citadel.
4. This would give WoW Wrath Babies their easy ticket in. Do you have any idea how that's going to effect the local chat of every single trade hub system???? Barrens chat, shudder..... These are not the kind of new players Eve Online needs. Hek, WoW doesn't like them that much anymore! (and there's a reason the numbers over in Bliz-land are falling... cater to the n00b, lose the the vets that keep the power running to a server)
5. Best reason this is a Very Bad Idea (c) is thus: Because it is outright breaking a promise CCP gave after learning their lesson in the Summer of Rage. If they can't as a company keep to their own rules, how dare they expect us to? Sauce for the goose theory in action.

On a side note, it's interesting how many issues I've had over the years in RL with those named Nancy.

And Sun sign Leo's.

IF! IF! SPs could only be used on below Capital level skills, there was an upper amount and that's all you can stuff in a clone's head folks, and are also verboten to skills that a Trial Account can't access, I Might back off a bit on the kvetching.

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.