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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#741 - 2016-01-20 10:52:51 UTC
Malou Hashur wrote:
SoapyTits wrote:
Malou Hashur wrote:
SoapyTits wrote:
Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game.


At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious (which you seem to have missed), us old players were once new players. We seemed to manage and are still here.

Just grow a pair and skill up like we did.


Lol - so its brave to have patience?


Also - back then u were too blinded to complain, fapping away in spaceships :P - today gamers want dynamic and challenging gameplay - they dont want to sit and wait in order to fit w/e, or do w/e.


WOW exists for people like you, go there. EVE used to be different but CCP are trying to change that.



Lol using the WOW comment. Fact is - OLD PEOPLE DIE, and YOUNG PEOPLE WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE... The gaming industry is all about young people - thats where the players are, and thats there the money is. In order for CCP to survive, they have to adapt to what gamers want (not old people - they die, ergo no moneyzz), and this means change of certain aspects of this game.

In the old days EVE had spaceships - which entriuged people.
Now alot of games has that (or they will deffinetly come within a year or 2), AAAAND dynamic, challenging and rewarding gameplay.

Its a fact - change is needed.

Im not doing the "EVE DYING"- argument, but everything changes - always. And if you cant adapt you die.
Nakaara Adahsa
Deep Void Enterprises
#742 - 2016-01-20 11:36:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nakaara Adahsa wrote:
Having thought about this a bit more, I'm beginning to think that CCP would prefer to implement a direct PLEX-for-skill-points scheme but that they may be too afraid to do that just yet. Prior player backlash over radical feature changes may have taught them to make changes more incrementally to test player acceptance. More importantly, though, gradual change can be a tool to *condition* players to eventually accept something they otherwise might revolt en masse over.

I think that's the target endgame for this feature: direct PLEX-for-skill points. No skill extractor nonsense, no pretense of "experienced players being kind to new players and giving them skill points", etc. This is all just a facade to get players to swallow a bitter pill before making the REAL intended game change in another year or so.

If this is the plan, that would help to explain why they've ignored all of the negative feedback that they received the first time this idea was mentioned a few months ago. I think they've already decided this and are prepared to ignore all player protests until and unless they see a real drop in financial revenue after doing this.

Clearly they don't regard players as customers to be served but rather as sheep to be herded wherever CCP wants them to go.
The problem is that this supposed target endgame is an indefensible position whether injectors are in place or not. Unless you're considering the plan to be a complete churn of the player-base within the scope of this plan it doesn't play out. Those that are in favor of this are in favor as is, from what I've seen of support posts anyways, under parallels to existing mechanics and functions.

Your slippery slope calculated end point doesn't have that and is entirely dependent on people just forgetting the principles the game should have. While I like the addition of the implications there that everyone who isn't strongly against this is soft in the head for not buying the doom prophecies your selling on top of in time suggesting we'd just roll over and accept a change we do have issue with, maybe we could be given the benefit of the doubt that we're actually capable of evaluating these ideas and how they affect what we want the game to be.

More than that the method doesn't even make sense with the conclusion. Dilute your potential market with player sourced SP at variable rates which limits your own sustainable price point? Good plan. One you can't walk away from without a pretty obvious handover of mechanics that has to screw someone over.

Further this IS pretty radical. Very much so as judged by the reaction. If the goal was non-controversial they failed spectacularly and should have retreated rather than proceeded given the first thread. And I doubt the reaction was much less so than the alternative end goal you suggest would generate.

That this is proceeding despite the feedback here is a bit surprising, but not as much given the complete opposite tone seemingly present on reddit. And rest assured even here they DID get positive feedback, a great deal of it which appeared throughout the ragefest that was the original thread.





My expectation is that an eventual PLEX-for-skill-points mechanism in another year or so would replace the mechanism they are implementing now. Get players to accept a "skill point trading" scheme and then replace it with a "direct skill point buying" later on under the guise of making it more "convenient".

Do I know for certain this will happen? No, but it is the logical end-point if I were CCP and didn't care about players at all as long as a large enough minority buys enough PLEX to increase overall revenue. Their bet would be that most players will continue to subscribe despite griping and the minority that wants pay-to-win will buy more PLEX.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#743 - 2016-01-20 11:54:36 UTC
SoapyTits wrote:
Malou Hashur wrote:
SoapyTits wrote:
Malou Hashur wrote:
SoapyTits wrote:
Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game.


At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious (which you seem to have missed), us old players were once new players. We seemed to manage and are still here.

Just grow a pair and skill up like we did.


Lol - so its brave to have patience?


Also - back then u were too blinded to complain, fapping away in spaceships :P - today gamers want dynamic and challenging gameplay - they dont want to sit and wait in order to fit w/e, or do w/e.


WOW exists for people like you, go there. EVE used to be different but CCP are trying to change that.



Lol using the WOW comment. Fact is - OLD PEOPLE DIE, and YOUNG PEOPLE WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE... The gaming industry is all about young people - thats where the players are, and thats there the money is. In order for CCP to survive, they have to adapt to what gamers want (not old people - they die, ergo no moneyzz), and this means change of certain aspects of this game.

In the old days EVE had spaceships - which entriuged people.
Now alot of games has that (or they will deffinetly come within a year or 2), AAAAND dynamic, challenging and rewarding gameplay.

Its a fact - change is needed.

Im not doing the "EVE DYING"- argument, but everything changes - always. And if you cant adapt you die.



Average age of a 'gamer' is between 30 -38 by all accounts, I hardly class that as old! It's also the demographic that tends to prefer more visceral games rather than the instant gratification games preferred by the younger demographic. This seems to indicate a clear shift by CCP from longer term higher loyalty players to shorter term higher turnover players.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#744 - 2016-01-20 11:56:44 UTC
Nakaara Adahsa wrote:


My expectation is that an eventual PLEX-for-skill-points mechanism in another year or so would replace the mechanism they are implementing now. Get players to accept a "skill point trading" scheme and then replace it with a "direct skill point buying" later on under the guise of making it more "convenient".

Do I know for certain this will happen? No, but it is the logical end-point if I were CCP and didn't care about players at all as long as a large enough minority buys enough PLEX to increase overall revenue. Their bet would be that most players will continue to subscribe despite griping and the minority that wants pay-to-win will buy more PLEX.


The logical endpoint is getting rid of skills all together. Welcome to World of Spaceships.
RogueHunteer
Doomheim
#745 - 2016-01-20 12:05:54 UTC
Cost of the new item ? on aura store cost?
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#746 - 2016-01-20 12:10:33 UTC
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#747 - 2016-01-20 12:10:52 UTC
Now is that 30 - 38 in eve or in general gaming?
Hiircine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#748 - 2016-01-20 12:36:06 UTC
Sorry I'm too lazy to read all the 38 pages of topic, maybe this idea has already been mentionned.

But with this system, all rich isk or real money people can skills an high end character in a few time.
I think we need a cooldown on the use of skill injector, allowing one use by week for example.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#749 - 2016-01-20 12:53:35 UTC
Hiircine wrote:
Sorry I'm too lazy to read all the 38 pages of topic, maybe this idea has already been mentionned.

But with this system, all rich isk or real money people can skills an high end character in a few time.
I think we need a cooldown on the use of skill injector, allowing one use by week for example.


I proposed 2 a year somewhat earlier in thread.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Josef Djugashvilis
#750 - 2016-01-20 12:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem.


Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called.

That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really.

This is not a signature.

Dibz
Doomheim
#751 - 2016-01-20 13:19:41 UTC
Charlie Corday wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Charlie Corday wrote:
Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.


Seriously, do you actually trust 1-day characters? Because personally I bug out when I see the known gank ships (certain destroyers, for example), I don't even wait to show info on the character. Destroyer in the overview? Bug out!!! And even then it's too late.

Do you trust a 1-day character coming near you to mine in his Venture? Because they're the perfect "warp to fleet member at 0 km" setup to kill you with point blank heavy damage suicide gank ships.

1-day doesn't mean anything. You help 1-day newbies in the Newbie Q/A forums, not in game. Can't trust anyone in-game.

So how many SP they have is moot.




And I will repeat this for you..

The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.


What does this have to do with 1-day old gank alts?
Luna Bowman
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#752 - 2016-01-20 13:32:22 UTC
SoapyTits wrote:

Lol using the WOW comment. Fact is - OLD PEOPLE DIE, and YOUNG PEOPLE WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE... The gaming industry is all about young people - thats where the players are, and thats there the money is. In order for CCP to survive, they have to adapt to what gamers want (not old people - they die, ergo no moneyzz)


Im 36 and not planning on dying any time soon, thank you very much.
Luna Bowman
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#753 - 2016-01-20 13:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Luna Bowman
Also, in-game consequence might be, that it will not be possible to judge player capability based on its age. So, CCP, question is, whats the long-term prediction on a consequence of this ?

edit: example - you are on 6 month old character, you see a 5 day old guy in lowsec local, out of scan. Now, w/o this change - whan he can be in, efficently? frigate? destroyer?

With this change? What's hes in, potentially? T3 cruiser / destroyer? Battlecruiser?

Then again, im a newbie, so. :P

edit 2:

Dibz wrote:
What does this have to do with 1-day old gank alts?


Before: 1 day old gank alt in poorly fit frigate / maaaaybe a destroyer?
After: 1 day old gank alt in max skilled tornado, after buying 6 million SP worth of injectors by his main?
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#754 - 2016-01-20 13:46:48 UTC
Querns wrote:
Hubs wrote:
This "Pay to Win" option worries me immensely and makes me somewhat sad...

How is this "pay to win?" SP injectors aren't for sale on the AUR store; only the extractors are.



Cause you cant buy multiple toons and stockpile them into one, while you could buy multiple skill points injections and boost one single character greatly.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#755 - 2016-01-20 13:48:22 UTC
SoapyTits wrote:
Now is that 30 - 38 in eve or in general gaming?


That was from a quick google where the articles quoted 30-38 as the low and high ends for gaming in general. Interestingly one of the articles pointed out that in general its people under ~20 and over ~30 playing but the average falls in between. Most polls tend to find what they want though which is why I took the lowest and highest age as most seemed to agree on that at least
Wendrika Hydreiga
#756 - 2016-01-20 13:49:46 UTC
Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!

In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.

Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine.
Dibz
Doomheim
#757 - 2016-01-20 13:50:15 UTC
Luna Bowman wrote:
Before: 1 day old gank alt in poorly fit frigate / maaaaybe a destroyer?
After: 1 day old gank alt in max skilled tornado, after buying 6 million SP worth of injectors by his main?


What does this have to do with the consequences of your choices in EVE?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#758 - 2016-01-20 13:55:18 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!

In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.

Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine.


The problem comes when people who like the game get fed up of being ignored about changes such as this and really do just give up. Then the game suffers.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#759 - 2016-01-20 13:58:33 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:

In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.


Some people just quietly unsubscribe.
And sadly, some of them who are used to paying 3 or 6 months at a time, still have several months prepaid, so the subscribed numbers may not immediately show the fall.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#760 - 2016-01-20 13:58:41 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem.


Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called.

That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really.


This bugs me too, these forums as far as I understand are current subbed players only, i.e. the opinions of those actually playing the game. You can only like a post and not actively beat i down (other than by arguing your point).

Reddit is a forum for anyone (whether active or not) and can be manipulated through aggressive downvoting of any post (no matter how well reasoned) that does not fit with the view of the largest group with the most to benefit from any given change.

Doesn't strike me as a smart way to gather feedback.