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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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The dilemma of attribute implants.
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Avvy
Doomheim
#41 - 2015-11-16 10:03:41 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:


Obsession with the SP training mini-game is one of the biggest limiting factors on newer players in EVE and presumably a good part of the reason CCP are thinking of dumping training implants altogether.


There's a reason for that obsession and that is because it's more important to newer players than it is to players with older characters.

Also buying a character from the bazaar doesn't work for everyone because some people don't want a second hand character, they want to be able to design their own character.

Imo CCP shouldn't just be thinking about it they should be doing it.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2015-11-16 10:50:42 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Avvy wrote:
I'm still calm believe it or not.

In this thread I'm not looking for assurances that was the other thread and those questions were answered.

This thread is more about what I'm finding.

Part of the problem is I still don't understand how players have accepted the fact that PvE players in high-sec can train more quickly than PvP players.

Maybe another issue is that I'm used to levelling characters fairly quickly and here that comes down to the skill queue and implants as there's no other way to progress a character.

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaah.

In EVE, forget everything you have learned in other MMOs. It won't help you here. Having "good" skills is only part of the equation to be being "good." You also need experience.

And here is something you are probably missing; if you have a lot of skillpoints you WILL be held to a higher standard by other players. So much so in fact that you will probably be denied entry into a lot of different groups just because they expect you to have a fair bit more experience and a better attitude towards risk and dying.

This is why many of us push newbies to go out and die in a fire right off the bat. It teaches them to accept that losses are a part of the game and how to survive better with less... which helps as you get more involved with the game and your skills improve.
There have been many times where I have been stranded in a hostile area and the only things available to me are Tech 1 ships and meta equipment.

As for the implants... they are luxury items. Nothing more.
Don't see this luxury as a NEED. Go out and just do stuff.

(and frankly, I am so tired of this debate about attribute implants that I am just HOPING that the DEVs simply remove implants altogether and not replace it with anything... just to give a proper "up yours" to people who think "lots of skillpoints = necessary"... but this isn't going to happen because LP stores are apparently a HUGE isk-sink in the game).


Sooo...Snuff is recruiting 1M SP newbies now?

SP isn't everything but let's not continue pretending it doesn't matter and that the month old new guy can participate in the game beyond a very few basic functions and fits.
Cherri Minoa
Serendipity Technologies Inc
#43 - 2015-11-16 11:13:27 UTC
I've lived in null for 3 years with just a +3 powergrid plugged in. What else would you need?

"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#44 - 2015-11-16 12:41:26 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Sooo...Snuff is recruiting 1M SP newbies now?

SP isn't everything but let's not continue pretending it doesn't matter and that the month old new guy can participate in the game beyond a very few basic functions and fits.


My alliance and coalition allows month-old (and younger) characters in most fleets as tackle and EWAR, where they are not only very effective but they learn, get kills, and come to understand that they are a part of something. This is in no way an advertisement for the Imperium because there are plenty of other corps and alliances in EVE that do the same thing. I got my first real organized PvP experiences from a nifty little independent outfit down in Curse.

The OP, however, is long past the one-month mark.

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Avvy
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-11-16 13:32:19 UTC
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
The OP, however, is long past the one-month mark.


Which is another way of saying that you wouldn't accept me anyway.

Which is fine as I wouldn't have applied anyway.
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#46 - 2015-11-16 13:33:45 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
The OP, however, is long past the one-month mark.


Which is another way of saying that you wouldn't accept me anyway.

Which is fine as I wouldn't have applied anyway.



Lol

Just whatever, dude. Whatever.

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Avvy
Doomheim
#47 - 2015-11-16 13:50:58 UTC
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
The OP, however, is long past the one-month mark.


Which is another way of saying that you wouldn't accept me anyway.

Which is fine as I wouldn't have applied anyway.



Lol

Just whatever, dude. Whatever.


Judging by your quick reply and response, I may have misinterpreted what you meant. But anyway...
Memphis Baas
#48 - 2015-11-16 16:14:13 UTC
This brings back memories of job hunting, where, well if you need the job then apply, don't assume that you know what their rejection criteria are; you're just cutting your chances if you think like that. You get enough rejections during a job hunt as is, why pre-reject yourself?

Anyway, moving on, CCP may or may not make changes; there have been many discussions about implants and attributes, and they were very vocal, hundred-page threads, with both sides arguing vehemently. Currently they view implants as consummables, part of what you lose if you get podded, and I think they believe it's difficult enough to get podded that they can leave the implants as they are. And as posted above, quite a few people use expensive sets; it's part of flying cutting edge fittings to get that extra 5-10% to beat the next guy.
Solai
Doughfleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#49 - 2015-11-16 18:13:22 UTC
Avvy wrote:

There's a reason for that obsession and that is because it's more important to newer players than it is to players with older characters.

Actually, this is untrue. Each individual skill has a non linear relationship between benefit and time invested. They are all front loaded, so you can get the majority of the benefit within the first 3 ranks, which train very quickly. After those 3 ranks, Diminishing returns hit hard. Further, most important skills aren't locked away behind gatekeeper skills. The result is that options and potency come fast if you aim for a particular goal. In contrast, mastery tends to only grant a very mild edge.

So as it turns out, it's the opposite of your claim: newbies get bonuses quickly, and veterans need to sink in huge amounts of Sp to gain that minor edge. Veterans need the implants, new players do not. New characters can nearly catch up just by training things to 3.

As an exception, Tech2 ships and mods are typically locked behind mastery, but if you compare the stats, you will see that(once again) this only affords a very mild edge most of the time. It's actually a very elegant system.

Here's a vid to drive the point home.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Lathael
Liga der aussergewoehnlichen Tattergreise
#50 - 2015-11-17 17:18:27 UTC
Hi Avvy,

I play since 2008 and most of my time I was in High Sec.
Some people cannot understand that there are people like me that like to learn on the edge, so level 5 implants are to them a must have.

I know that it is idiotic but I love to get skill points and I am a bit proud that I am under the first 1000 on eveboard.com.
Other do not care but that is okay too.
From my point of view EVE has an awesome skill system.

On the long run I miss PVP and I would LOVE to do it, but the costs are too high for me to do PVP and fly +5 imps.
And switching clones would only decrease rate of learning. Yes it is a compromise but nothing for me.

My hope is that CCP will remove attribute implants and exchange them with some useful stuff.
In the past they have already removed Attribute skills and replaced such mechanics with meaningful gameplay.

I am in good mood that they will come up with a good idea by time.
Avvy
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-11-18 02:08:44 UTC
Lathael wrote:
Hi Avvy,

I play since 2008 and most of my time I was in High Sec.
Some people cannot understand that there are people like me that like to learn on the edge, so level 5 implants are to them a must have.

I know that it is idiotic but I love to get skill points and I am a bit proud that I am under the first 1000 on eveboard.com.
Other do not care but that is okay too.
From my point of view EVE has an awesome skill system.

On the long run I miss PVP and I would LOVE to do it, but the costs are too high for me to do PVP and fly +5 imps.
And switching clones would only decrease rate of learning. Yes it is a compromise but nothing for me.

My hope is that CCP will remove attribute implants and exchange them with some useful stuff.
In the past they have already removed Attribute skills and replaced such mechanics with meaningful gameplay.

I am in good mood that they will come up with a good idea by time.



Hi Lathael

That's not strange at all, you're within the top 1000 and proud of it and you want to stay there.

The only way you can make sure of that is to keep +5's fitted at all times.

So the attributes in your case are a help but also a problem as it prevents you from doing affordable PvP (I use the term affordable as relating to your own personal circumstances).


I'm hoping they will be removed, sooner rather than later. But they have to make sure they can do it without causing any other issues so we'll have to wait and see.
Kharaxus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2015-11-18 22:37:43 UTC
My first experience playing Eve.......

I applied to a Corp. They asked me how long I had been flying ______. My response was: o.O They said - "yea, we've been watching you".

The "leader" of the Corp was "suspicious". Everybody else was normal. I was afraid of the leader. Could care less about everybody else. Everybody else were doing spreadsheets. The leader was always doing the exact opposite of other people, and "hacking" Eve.

There were stories told ABOUT the leader of the Corp - something to do with him being a paratrooper too long. If I remember correctly, he used to run around in Null in a slasher with a heavy or medium gun turret. He was never actually "in a Corp" - but I DID talk to him in Corp chat. He had a tendency to take formulas: x+y=z and make it do something else instead. Always pushing boundaries and doing exploits (looking back now).

In other words, the forums are total and utter bull. Read/study what you need to, until you got the logistics for what you want to do, and then do it.

It took me about 4-5 years to actually have a clue what implants were/for. It really didn't matter to me.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-11-19 23:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
The experience you gain from undocking and shooting stuff is worth the sp the implants would give you ten times over. I have never injected learning implants on this character, and never plan to do so (with the exception of genolutions for fitting space with one fit). The new starting skills makes it possible to pvp day one. Take advantage of that.
Avvy wrote:

Hi Lathael
That's not strange at all, you're within the top 1000 and proud of it and you want to stay there.
The only way you can make sure of that is to keep +5's fitted at all times.

Also, that is false. After three years or so additional sp has a very minor impact.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Avvy
Doomheim
#54 - 2015-11-20 02:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Avvy wrote:

Hi Lathael
That's not strange at all, you're within the top 1000 and proud of it and you want to stay there.
The only way you can make sure of that is to keep +5's fitted at all times.

Also, that is false. After three years or so additional sp has a very minor impact.



Nothing false about it.

He's talking about his position in the top 1000, if he wears +4's he'll start dropping down the list.

Your reply is to something completely different.



Let's look at your reply.

2 players that have the same skills at playing this game as each other. So you're telling me that if one of those players has a mix of 3, 4 and 5 skills and the other has all 5's it's not going to make any difference?

Maybe one 5 isn't a big deal, but a bunch of them will make a difference.


Edit:

As for the 3 years, what if one of them had changed profession during that time. I don't see how you can use 3 years as part of the argument, unless you are assuming they both did the same profession for the whole 3 years.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#55 - 2015-11-20 03:16:05 UTC
The only thing stopping you from engaging in PvP activities with implants is YOU.
If YOU choose not to partake, that's YOUR choice. Fine and dandy, no arguments from me.
Kindly don't go blaming long-standing game mechanics for YOUR choices.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Avvy
Doomheim
#56 - 2015-11-20 03:22:56 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
The only thing stopping you from engaging in PvP activities with implants is YOU.
If YOU choose not to partake, that's YOUR choice. Fine and dandy, no arguments from me.
Kindly don't go blaming long-standing game mechanics for YOUR choices.



Yes, it is my choice I can choose to train faster like most others in high-sec or I can choose to train slower.
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2015-11-20 03:52:51 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
The only thing stopping you from engaging in PvP activities with implants is YOU.
If YOU choose not to partake, that's YOUR choice. Fine and dandy, no arguments from me.
Kindly don't go blaming long-standing game mechanics for YOUR choices.



Yes, it is my choice I can choose to train faster like most others in high-sec or I can choose to train slower.


You're not really interested in this game for the actual gameplay-- are you? You're just really, really fascinated by the whole skill training and attribute system and all the ways it can be optimized?

Nothing wrong with that, but you should admit it to yourself and everyone.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#58 - 2015-11-20 03:59:04 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Yes, it is my choice I can choose to train faster like most others in high-sec or I can choose to train slower.


Here's the thing, once you've trained yourself up to whatever magnificent level of SP you feel is sufficient and THEN start to PvP, guess what!

YOU'LL STILL SUCK AT IT.

With limited actual PvP experience, you'll have to learn ALL those lessons thee *rest* of us learned as bright faced, <1m SP newbros.

You'll have to learn the dark arts of spiraling in and out and the other black magic of transversal control. The wonders of velocity matching and how to tackle will be beyond your epic level of skillpoints because your actual 'player skill' level will be pretty bad. Believe me or don't, player piloting skill is worth more than skillpoints. There's numerous ALODs out there that prove this point.

Seriously. I started playing pewpew with RvB with <1m SP. I moved to 0.0 space with about 3m SP.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Avvy
Doomheim
#59 - 2015-11-20 04:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Thierry Orlenard wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
The only thing stopping you from engaging in PvP activities with implants is YOU.
If YOU choose not to partake, that's YOUR choice. Fine and dandy, no arguments from me.
Kindly don't go blaming long-standing game mechanics for YOUR choices.



Yes, it is my choice I can choose to train faster like most others in high-sec or I can choose to train slower.


You're not really interested in this game for the actual gameplay-- are you? You're just really, really fascinated by the whole skill training and attribute system and all the ways it can be optimized?

Nothing wrong with that, but you should admit it to yourself and everyone.





If I was just training for the sake of training, I'd just call it a day as I do have other games I can and still do play.

I've no interest in having 408 skills at level 5 or even 408 skills. Some people do, if that's what they want then fair play to them.

I'll never be totally optimised as I'm not intending to train cybernetics to 5.

But you can keep guessing if you like.
Avvy
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-11-20 04:13:42 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Yes, it is my choice I can choose to train faster like most others in high-sec or I can choose to train slower.


Here's the thing, once you've trained yourself up to whatever magnificent level of SP you feel is sufficient and THEN start to PvP, guess what!

YOU'LL STILL SUCK AT IT.



I'm just amazed that you guys seem to think I don't know that.

I'm well aware of it.