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Why do off grid links exist?
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Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-11-09 00:00:38 UTC
I'm curious to know what the reasoning behind off grid links is. What possible reason could there be for the existence this mechanic?

I submit that links are fundamentally at odds with PVP, and further that they destroy PVP content by removing a critical part of PVP, which is choosing your fights. Links change the capabilities of ships so much that they effectively destroy the ability of the pilot to know what they are fighting, and what chance they have of survival.

The great problem with links is not that they make ships ridiculously OP. We already have the Worm, the Garmur, Gila, Orthrus, and other seriously OP ships. I concede that they form part of the meta.

But here is the thing: you know, when you see a worm warping in on short D scan, that a worm is coming. You know, when you see an Orthrus and two Svipuls cruising the belts, what to expect.

Links change this completely. You think you face a tech 1 frigate. You have no idea that it has a much better tank than a tech 2 assault frigate, with more DPS, and can easily destroy 3 or 4 unlinked players by itself.

The only way to avoid off grid linked players is to never fight in a system where you don't know exactly where everyone is, or who and what they are. In other words, stay away from any system where there is more than one enemy or neutral, or where you can't see everyone in local on grid.

THAT is what links do for PVP. If you are serious about choosing your fights, those become the rules. Otherwise, your only option is to use off grid links yourself. At that point, PVP becomes inaccessible for new players, and small gangs are massively disadvantaged because they need to pay for an alt.

So, these are the three big problems with off grid links:

1. They destroy the ability to know what you face, and to choose your fights.
2. They completely unbalance PVP, making ships that would die 1 v 1 capable of taking on 3 or 4 enemy with ease. They are not subtle, but rather they are designed to make solo ships essentially invulnerable in small gang pvp.
3. They can't be countered, short of engaging in an arms race that has nothing to do with piloting and everything to do with spending isk, and time, in the pursuit of simple PVP.

I don't want to complain exclusively. We enjoy PVP in FW space, and when you do get fair fights it is great fun.

But let us not ignore the real problems with Eve, and with the culture at CCP. Last week I logged on and jumped into a navy faction frigate, and went to meet my corp 6 systems away. I was insta popped by TWO svipuls at the first gate, then podded.

OK, that happens. Yes, the meta is in a strange place when 2 players can insta pop a tanky ship a class smaller than them., but........ gate "camps" happen.

So then we go out to find a fight, and we come across a triple stabbed Merlin farming a large plex.

Again, we make the sign of the cross and give thanks for a rich ecosystem.

Then we find pirates using links, and baiting folks with an apparently vulnerable Kestrel that can destroy other tech 1 frigates in less than 10 seconds. That means clearing a field of three enemy frigates of the same class in 30 seconds. In other words, before it uses even 1/3 of its tank.

This is Eve game play. This is what FW space has become, due to the pervasive bullying culture at CCP.

The bottom line is this: if you want reasonably balanced fights, or even if you want predictable fights so you can pick and choose your fights (which inherently leads to balanced fights), then there are a whole biunch of folks at CCP who are absolutely against that.

Those folks developed off grid links.

Why?

Why did they do that, and why do they keep trying to make Eve a game where new players just get smashed by senior players using hidden and deeply unfair tactics?

Eve is the only game I can think of where new players are so deliberately disadvantaged compared to the older players. They suffer massive retardation of ability through the skill points system, as well as not having real player skills. On top of all this, senior players have access to better ships, better modules, better implants and, of course, better chances to pay for all of the above.

This is not "amazing" or unique. It is not inspired. It's not just "a hard game".

It's a bully culture, where the older, bigger kids cheat in order to push around the smaller kids.

Maybe CCP have solid commercial reasons for cultivating a bully culture where the established powers thrill to pick on the weakest in their community.

Or maybe this culture is a reflection of the people who founded the organization.

Or, maybe, this culture of abuse evolved on its own, called itself a "sandbox", and nobody has ever seriously tried to get rid of the degenerate personalities who fuel all cultures of abuse.

Thinking specifically of the goons and the Mittani here.

In summary, we should think about WHY off grid links exist, and more importantly WHO at CCP support this kind of mechanic.

It's the only way to change the culture.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#2 - 2015-11-09 00:17:51 UTC
There are plenty of reasons why OGBs exist, but none of them are good ones. Some will parrot nonsense about links being intrinsic to large fleet warfare, or they will say that "eve isn't supposed to be fair", as if that somehow justifies such an absurd aspect of game design as OGBs, but if you read between the lines it is obvious that most players who defend OGBs are either players who use them on a regular basis and don't want them to go away, or players who are closed-minded and can't think for themselves, so they think that because something exists, then that's the way it should be, and you're the weird one for asking questions.
RonPaul Rox
Prime Directive.
United Caldari Space Command.
#3 - 2015-11-09 02:23:24 UTC
the same reason T2 BPOs exist, if ccp makes a bad decision that will anger people if they fix it, they dont fix it

http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-11-09 03:01:19 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
I'm curious to know what the reasoning behind off grid links is. What possible reason could there be for the existence this mechanic?

I submit that links are fundamentally at odds with PVP, and further that they destroy PVP content by removing a critical part of PVP, which is choosing your fights. Links change the capabilities of ships so much that they effectively destroy the ability of the pilot to know what they are fighting, and what chance they have of survival.

The great problem with links is not that they make ships ridiculously OP. We already have the Worm, the Garmur, Gila, Orthrus, and other seriously OP ships. I concede that they form part of the meta.

But here is the thing: you know, when you see a worm warping in on short D scan, that a worm is coming. You know, when you see an Orthrus and two Svipuls cruising the belts, what to expect.

Links change this completely. You think you face a tech 1 frigate. You have no idea that it has a much better tank than a tech 2 assault frigate, with more DPS, and can easily destroy 3 or 4 unlinked players by itself.

The only way to avoid off grid linked players is to never fight in a system where you don't know exactly where everyone is, or who and what they are. In other words, stay away from any system where there is more than one enemy or neutral, or where you can't see everyone in local on grid.

THAT is what links do for PVP. If you are serious about choosing your fights, those become the rules. Otherwise, your only option is to use off grid links yourself. At that point, PVP becomes inaccessible for new players, and small gangs are massively disadvantaged because they need to pay for an alt.

So, these are the three big problems with off grid links:

1. They destroy the ability to know what you face, and to choose your fights.
2. They completely unbalance PVP, making ships that would die 1 v 1 capable of taking on 3 or 4 enemy with ease. They are not subtle, but rather they are designed to make solo ships essentially invulnerable in small gang pvp.
3. They can't be countered, short of engaging in an arms race that has nothing to do with piloting and everything to do with spending isk, and time, in the pursuit of simple PVP.

I don't want to complain exclusively. We enjoy PVP in FW space, and when you do get fair fights it is great fun.

But let us not ignore the real problems with Eve, and with the culture at CCP. Last week I logged on and jumped into a navy faction frigate, and went to meet my corp 6 systems away. I was insta popped by TWO svipuls at the first gate, then podded.

OK, that happens. Yes, the meta is in a strange place when 2 players can insta pop a tanky ship a class smaller than them., but........ gate "camps" happen.

So then we go out to find a fight, and we come across a triple stabbed Merlin farming a large plex.

Again, we make the sign of the cross and give thanks for a rich ecosystem.

Then we find pirates using links, and baiting folks with an apparently vulnerable Kestrel that can destroy other tech 1 frigates in less than 10 seconds. That means clearing a field of three enemy frigates of the same class in 30 seconds. In other words, before it uses even 1/3 of its tank.

This is Eve game play. This is what FW space has become, due to the pervasive bullying culture at CCP.

The bottom line is this: if you want reasonably balanced fights, or even if you want predictable fights so you can pick and choose your fights (which inherently leads to balanced fights), then there are a whole biunch of folks at CCP who are absolutely against that.

Those folks developed off grid links.

Why?

Why did they do that, and why do they keep trying to make Eve a game where new players just get smashed by senior players using hidden and deeply unfair tactics?

Eve is the only game I can think of where new players are so deliberately disadvantaged compared to the older players. They suffer massive retardation of ability through the skill points system, as well as not having real player skills. On top of all this, senior players have access to better ships, better modules, better implants and, of course, better chances to pay for all of the above.

This is not "amazing" or unique. It is not inspired. It's not just "a hard game".

It's a bully culture, where the older, bigger kids cheat in order to push around the smaller kids.

Maybe CCP have solid commercial reasons for cultivating a bully culture where the established powers thrill to pick on the weakest in their community.

Or maybe this culture is a reflection of the people who founded the organization.

Or, maybe, this culture of abuse evolved on its own, called itself a "sandbox", and nobody has ever seriously tried to get rid of the degenerate personalities who fuel all cultures of abuse.

Thinking specifically of the goons and the Mittani here.

In summary, we should think about WHY off grid links exist, and more importantly WHO at CCP support this kind of mechanic.

It's the only way to change the culture.


TL;DR version a linked tengu touched my e-honor?

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#5 - 2015-11-09 03:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
woah this thread delivers grrrrr goons and booohoo links all in the same post

dank/10 would read again

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-11-09 06:27:36 UTC
I took a newbro friend out. We each had a thrasher. 250mm highs, web, J5B scram, 1mn AB, 2x Gyro in lows. Rigs were collision accelerators.

We roamed bleaks lands for 15 minutes and found a thrasher and jackdaw at a large. We warped in on them, exploded their trasher and he warped out. I died to the jackdaw and the inevitable pile on of people who came in. I was even ECM'd by a kitsune by the end. I self destructed, figuring there was no need to let more whore in on my ship.

Their thrasher was full of loot, so worth 10m, 4m more than my 6m thrasher. Op Success.

Verlyn
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#7 - 2015-11-09 09:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Verlyn
It's just one of the many reasons why many of us simply leave FW pvp within its own puddle of **** tbh.

However OP, don't try making this into stealth SP complaint thread, please. Thanks.

PS: Yang Aurilen, you're an idiot.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#8 - 2015-11-09 12:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
so you guys think that boosts are only used in FW pvp lol.

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#9 - 2015-11-09 12:47:02 UTC
From a purely impartial perspective. I have to say boosts are awesome.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#10 - 2015-11-09 12:58:18 UTC
Did the OP really just say that people with links are bullying him? That's pretty special.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#11 - 2015-11-09 12:59:12 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:


TL;DR version a linked tengu touched my e-honor?

pretty much

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#12 - 2015-11-09 14:03:00 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
From a purely impartial perspective. I have to say boosts are awesome.



Made my lunchtime. Lol




I've no real objection to OGB.

You can argue that they broaden the combat options and profiles as much as they reduce, you have to adapt your engagement choices.


Links may need a bit of balancing and it should be less easy for evasion by the ships providing links. I would like to see the module that gives the "interdiction" range boost reworked to something else.

ie:
1. Reduce the effectiveness of links on T3C
2. Give a weapons timer for link boosters when the ships under their command aggress and remain aggressed.
3. Remove and replace the interdiction skirmish link.
4. Give the same penalties to neutral Booster ships as they do to neutral Logi in High and Low sec.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-11-09 14:25:56 UTC
Only thing i want is links to have an aggression timer as previously mentioned to get them off stations where they can be probed down and killed.

I can think of only one fight in the last 6 months that I lost because my opponent was linked. It is very possible to work out if someone has links and whether it will change the outcome of the fight before you engage. Fights are mainly won or lost on meta and pilot skill. I can certainly pick out specific examples where links allow you to win fights you would not normally however these are few and far between.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2015-11-09 16:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
Pestilen Ratte wrote:

I submit that links are fundamentally at odds with PVP, and further that they destroy PVP content by removing a critical part of PVP, which is choosing your fights. Links change the capabilities of ships so much that they effectively destroy the ability of the pilot to know what they are fighting, and what chance they have of survival.

No. becuase u should always assume links. when u see a ship coming on dscan automatically assume it will web at 16 and scram at 14. unless garmur or orthrus or lachesis/arazu and some other eaf ive forgotten the name of

Pestilen Ratte wrote:
Links change this completely. You think you face a tech 1 frigate. You have no idea that it has a much better tank than a tech 2 assault frigate, with more DPS, and can easily destroy 3 or 4 unlinked players by itself.

stating that they get a much better tank than a t2 assault frigate is nonsense. period. also links do not affect ur dps check ur info. i would hazard that even with links i would die to 4 unlinked players unless i was kiting. in that case the extra speed and possibly lock range are most welcome.

Pestilen Ratte wrote:
The only way to avoid off grid linked players is to never fight in a system where you don't know exactly where everyone is, or who and what they are. In other words, stay away from any system where there is more than one enemy or neutral, or where you can't see everyone in local on grid.

THAT is what links do for PVP. If you are serious about choosing your fights, those become the rules. Otherwise, your only option is to use off grid links yourself. At that point, PVP becomes inaccessible for new players, and small gangs are massively disadvantaged because they need to pay for an alt.


i played the game for almost 3 yeard before getting an alt. i feel ur pain, but i didnt lose every fight. indeed i still had a very positive kb iirc. its not impossible to win, and its not impossible to survive. u need experience.

Pestilen Ratte wrote:
So, these are the three big problems with off grid links:

1. They destroy the ability to know what you face, and to choose your fights.
2. They completely unbalance PVP, making ships that would die 1 v 1 capable of taking on 3 or 4 enemy with ease. They are not subtle, but rather they are designed to make solo ships essentially invulnerable in small gang pvp.
3. They can't be countered, short of engaging in an arms race that has nothing to do with piloting and everything to do with spending isk, and time, in the pursuit of simple PVP.


1. no, see above
2. no that would be pilot skill. i'd dare say a noob with links will still die vs 3 or 4 unlinked vets.
3. you have defeatist attitude. not everyone has links. links wont win u every fight. they give u an edge.


Pestilen Ratte wrote:
But let us not ignore the real problems with Eve, and with the culture at CCP. Last week I logged on and jumped into a navy faction frigate, and went to meet my corp 6 systems away. I was insta popped by TWO svipuls at the first gate, then podded.

umm looking at the km. u got hit with artilllery on a svipul. pretty sure thats like 2k alpha, per shot. unless those svipuls were being remote sebo'd this loss shows that u are inexperienced.

when u jump through a gate. u need to assess what is around u. if u are in an unplated frig 90% of the time u can just warp off. the fact thaat you were caught means either remote sebo, or that u need to learn how to get off a gate like that.
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-11-09 17:48:45 UTC
If my story wasn't clear I don't fight with links. Sometimes I even go ISK positive though usually not. Drugs help a lot to make up for lack of links.


One time, I was flying Phantasm unlinked and undrugged in Null. I found 3 Mordus Angels on patrol. I engaged them. A zealot showed up and ruined the party.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44831846/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44831858/
My death: https://zkillboard.com/kill/44831872/

This vegeance thought he was so cool, warping in on me with his backup Thrashers. I totally did not have links but I think Ihad a standard Drop Booster (2m stop being superpoor). I played this very poorly I admit. I should have murdered far more thrashers/escaped but I kinda forgot I was in FW and the thrashers were free to engage on a gate. Derp? Live and learn.

Cool Guy Tackle Vengeance: https://zkillboard.com/kill/49526598/
Thrasher Bro 1: https://zkillboard.com/kill/49526608/
Thrasher Bro 2: https://zkillboard.com/kill/49526603/
Poorly Flown Hurricane: https://zkillboard.com/kill/49526611/

My point is this: I am terrible at PVP. Like the worst. I can still make some kills though, what's your excuse?
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-11-09 19:15:17 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
If my story wasn't clear I don't fight with links. Sometimes I even go ISK positive though usually not. Drugs help a lot to make up for lack of links.


One time, I was flying Phantasm unlinked and undrugged in Null. I found 3 Mordus Angels on patrol. I engaged them. A zealot showed up and ruined the party.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44831846/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44831858/
My death: https://zkillboard.com/kill/44831872/

This vegeance thought he was so cool, warping in on me with his backup Thrashers. I totally did not have links but I think Ihad a standard Drop Booster (2m stop being superpoor). I played this very poorly I admit. I should have murdered far more thrashers/escaped but I kinda forgot I was in FW and the thrashers were free to engage on a gate. Derp? Live and learn.

Cool Guy Tackle Vengeance: https://zkillboard.com/kill/49526598/
Thrasher Bro 1: https://zkillboard.com/kill/49526608/
Thrasher Bro 2: https://zkillboard.com/kill/49526603/
Poorly Flown Hurricane: https://zkillboard.com/kill/49526611/

My point is this: I am terrible at PVP. Like the worst. I can still make some kills though, what's your excuse?


FIGHT FAIRLY AND DIE AND ROLL OVER AT 2V1! That's what he'll say.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#17 - 2015-11-09 19:40:15 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:




I've no real objection to OGB.

You can argue that they broaden the combat options and profiles as much as they reduce, you have to adapt your engagement choices..



Of course they broaden the options for people using the boosts. Its like saying saying if you pay ccp an extra 15/month so you can fly a t3d in novice plexes. Except your t3d looks like a frigate.

For everyone else it limits the options. I used to warp in against kiting ships, hoping to sling shot them. But when links started becoming so prevalent forget it. Even when they warp in on you the crazy low signature and speed means you can't catch them unless you have a fantastic internet connection. Might as well warp off even if you are already in the plex.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Abannans Forum Alt
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-11-09 20:52:18 UTC
chances are, the guy who killed you with links would've probably killed you without them too
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#19 - 2015-11-09 22:50:27 UTC
So how many threads do we need on this subject?
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#20 - 2015-11-10 00:11:43 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:




I've no real objection to OGB.

You can argue that they broaden the combat options and profiles as much as they reduce, you have to adapt your engagement choices..



Of course they broaden the options for people using the boosts. Its like saying saying if you pay ccp an extra 15/month so you can fly a t3d in novice plexes. Except your t3d looks like a frigate.

For everyone else it limits the options. I used to warp in against kiting ships, hoping to sling shot them. But when links started becoming so prevalent forget it. Even when they warp in on you the crazy low signature and speed means you can't catch them unless you have a fantastic internet connection. Might as well warp off even if you are already in the plex.


They can just pay 15/month for a Recon or a cloaked Griffin.

What is needed is balancing of the off grid booster and make it harder for them to evade combat.

It is too easy to move a T3C fit for links around. The interdiction maneuvers warfare link now needs a change, particularly in the era of garmur, orthrus and with navy EWAR frigs on the way etc..

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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