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Manfred Sideous removal from CSM10

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Xenuria
#81 - 2015-11-06 09:24:33 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Xenuria for CSMXI


Reform the CSM!

CSM 12 Candidate
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#82 - 2015-11-06 10:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Rive
Mai Khumm wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
. You can read our forums if you like.


Not to say anyone is leaking anything...

...but anyone who's leaking NDA info, anywhere, not just here. Who's worth 2 grains of salt knows never to leak anything in such a manner where the source can't be pointed elsewhere, and impossible to trace back to the individual.

Which makes the quote in question literally worthless...


My point was simply to state that he was not leaking anything on our forums which are accessible to most members. The more people who were unaware of his accused leaking, the better, because it means people are not guilty of obscuring the behaviour.

I said in the tournament thread, that I intentionally don't want to know things, because the less I know, the less I can accidentally tell other people. I trust the people in charge to do the right thing. So far, this trust has not been broken, and I would hate this to be the first time it was.

I am INCREDIBLY doubtful that manny leaked anything. Period. I have had dozens of private conversations with him about possible changes CCP has announced, and every time I have brought up an alternative, he has said 'something might be in the works, but its nda sorry cant talk about it'. He wouldn't even give me a hint if i was in the right direction, and in the end it meant i stopped discussing it with him privately because we could never get anywhere, he was THAT CAREFUL.

I know PL very well, and I can see NO KIND of indication that anyone has taken advantage of unkown changes to influence market speculation, for instance. I am reluctant to be proven wrong, both because it would mean someone in my alliance was cheating, but also because it means my trust in manny was misplaced, much like MANY other people in the alliance who hit an NDA brick wall every time they tried to discuss stuff with him.

The suggestion to read our forums lets CCP both understand what access people had, and so what knowledge they had of any suspected cheating, and it also shows how manny acted towards most of us when it came to NDA rules. They can decide if he broke the NDA using that, but not rule out the possibility of him breaking NDA because of things like IRC logs.

What I want is proof. Proof for my alliance, proof for myself, and proof for the people who think they have been unfairly cheated because of these suspected NDA breaches. It brings EVERYTHING in to question that we have done since Manny became CSM, and that is not okay for anyone.
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#83 - 2015-11-06 10:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Rive
Mai Khumm wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
. You can read our forums if you like.


Not to say anyone is leaking anything...

...but anyone who's leaking NDA info, anywhere, not just here. Who's worth 2 grains of salt knows never to leak anything in such a manner where the source can't be pointed elsewhere, and impossible to trace back to the individual.

Which makes the quote in question literally worthless...


Coming from me it doesn't. Coming from someone like Elise, who has access to everything, it absolutely doesn't. It's fair to say I dont know everything about PL's inner workings, and I cannot rule out the possibility he shared something with someone privately that I am obllivious to. But I have spoken to him, at length, in the past, and know this is not something he would do flippantly, or in order to give PL an advantage. The offer for CCP to read our forums was to show that we are being as open as we POSSIBLY can be about this. Hell, I know Elise has made the same offer in the past.

CCP want to keep this matter between themselves and Manny, even though, in exceptional circumstances (like hydra cheating) everyone knew everything, and all of the information regarding the bannings in the tournament were completely publicised. Perhaps because CCP had proof. Because this is not the case in this particular incident, I cannot help but feel CCP does not have any proof.

This isn't a democracy, CCP get to decide what to do. But the fact they won't tell us is going to create a bad vibe between us. We want to be open on this. Unless CCP can show us proof, then I have to call their accusations bullshit. I know manny, I certainly dont know the CCP employees who chose to remove him. So until anything changes, I'm siding with manny on this, and saying that his removal from the CSM was based on poor assumption, rather than objective fact.
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#84 - 2015-11-06 13:14:52 UTC
The Judge wrote:
I have full faith that CCP has hard proof of "something" Manny did, or didn't, do. I would be surprised if this had anything to do with the upcoming capital changes. I would hope Manny had better judgement than to leak, having been in the public eye for a number of years now. I will leave my tinfoil hat and pitchfork in the cupboard for now... I suggest people do the same.

All that being said, I really hope we can do away with this revolving door of CSM members next term.


There is your first mistake, right there:

Having faith in CCP...

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#85 - 2015-11-06 13:15:47 UTC
Mr Rive wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
. You can read our forums if you like.


Not to say anyone is leaking anything...

...but anyone who's leaking NDA info, anywhere, not just here. Who's worth 2 grains of salt knows never to leak anything in such a manner where the source can't be pointed elsewhere, and impossible to trace back to the individual.

Which makes the quote in question literally worthless...


My point was simply to state that he was not leaking anything on our forums which are accessible to most members. The more people who were unaware of his accused leaking, the better, because it means people are not guilty of obscuring the behaviour.

I said in the tournament thread, that I intentionally don't want to know things, because the less I know, the less I can accidentally tell other people. I trust the people in charge to do the right thing. So far, this trust has not been broken, and I would hate this to be the first time it was.

I am INCREDIBLY doubtful that manny leaked anything. Period. I have had dozens of private conversations with him about possible changes CCP has announced, and every time I have brought up an alternative, he has said 'something might be in the works, but its nda sorry cant talk about it'. He wouldn't even give me a hint if i was in the right direction, and in the end it meant i stopped discussing it with him privately because we could never get anywhere, he was THAT CAREFUL.

I know PL very well, and I can see NO KIND of indication that anyone has taken advantage of unkown changes to influence market speculation, for instance. I am reluctant to be proven wrong, both because it would mean someone in my alliance was cheating, but also because it means my trust in manny was misplaced, much like MANY other people in the alliance who hit an NDA brick wall every time they tried to discuss stuff with him.

The suggestion to read our forums lets CCP both understand what access people had, and so what knowledge they had of any suspected cheating, and it also shows how manny acted towards most of us when it came to NDA rules. They can decide if he broke the NDA using that, but not rule out the possibility of him breaking NDA because of things like IRC logs.

What I want is proof. Proof for my alliance, proof for myself, and proof for the people who think they have been unfairly cheated because of these suspected NDA breaches. It brings EVERYTHING in to question that we have done since Manny became CSM, and that is not okay for anyone.


Absolutely....PL have no history of ever doing anything like this before.

Oh wait....

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#86 - 2015-11-06 13:38:37 UTC
Malou Hashur wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
. You can read our forums if you like.


Not to say anyone is leaking anything...

...but anyone who's leaking NDA info, anywhere, not just here. Who's worth 2 grains of salt knows never to leak anything in such a manner where the source can't be pointed elsewhere, and impossible to trace back to the individual.

Which makes the quote in question literally worthless...


My point was simply to state that he was not leaking anything on our forums which are accessible to most members. The more people who were unaware of his accused leaking, the better, because it means people are not guilty of obscuring the behaviour.

I said in the tournament thread, that I intentionally don't want to know things, because the less I know, the less I can accidentally tell other people. I trust the people in charge to do the right thing. So far, this trust has not been broken, and I would hate this to be the first time it was.

I am INCREDIBLY doubtful that manny leaked anything. Period. I have had dozens of private conversations with him about possible changes CCP has announced, and every time I have brought up an alternative, he has said 'something might be in the works, but its nda sorry cant talk about it'. He wouldn't even give me a hint if i was in the right direction, and in the end it meant i stopped discussing it with him privately because we could never get anywhere, he was THAT CAREFUL.

I know PL very well, and I can see NO KIND of indication that anyone has taken advantage of unkown changes to influence market speculation, for instance. I am reluctant to be proven wrong, both because it would mean someone in my alliance was cheating, but also because it means my trust in manny was misplaced, much like MANY other people in the alliance who hit an NDA brick wall every time they tried to discuss stuff with him.

The suggestion to read our forums lets CCP both understand what access people had, and so what knowledge they had of any suspected cheating, and it also shows how manny acted towards most of us when it came to NDA rules. They can decide if he broke the NDA using that, but not rule out the possibility of him breaking NDA because of things like IRC logs.

What I want is proof. Proof for my alliance, proof for myself, and proof for the people who think they have been unfairly cheated because of these suspected NDA breaches. It brings EVERYTHING in to question that we have done since Manny became CSM, and that is not okay for anyone.


Absolutely....PL have no history of ever doing anything like this before.

Oh wait....


Oh wait... What? Examples? If you say the sphere I'll laugh at you.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2015-11-06 14:02:38 UTC
Mr Rive wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
. You can read our forums if you like.


Not to say anyone is leaking anything...

...but anyone who's leaking NDA info, anywhere, not just here. Who's worth 2 grains of salt knows never to leak anything in such a manner where the source can't be pointed elsewhere, and impossible to trace back to the individual.

Which makes the quote in question literally worthless...


Coming from me it doesn't. Coming from someone like Elise, who has access to everything, it absolutely doesn't. It's fair to say I dont know everything about PL's inner workings, and I cannot rule out the possibility he shared something with someone privately that I am obllivious to. But I have spoken to him, at length, in the past, and know this is not something he would do flippantly, or in order to give PL an advantage. The offer for CCP to read our forums was to show that we are being as open as we POSSIBLY can be about this. Hell, I know Elise has made the same offer in the past.

CCP want to keep this matter between themselves and Manny, even though, in exceptional circumstances (like hydra cheating) everyone knew everything, and all of the information regarding the bannings in the tournament were completely publicised. Perhaps because CCP had proof. Because this is not the case in this particular incident, I cannot help but feel CCP does not have any proof.

This isn't a democracy, CCP get to decide what to do. But the fact they won't tell us is going to create a bad vibe between us. We want to be open on this. Unless CCP can show us proof, then I have to call their accusations bullshit. I know manny, I certainly dont know the CCP employees who chose to remove him. So until anything changes, I'm siding with manny on this, and saying that his removal from the CSM was based on poor assumption, rather than objective fact.


As someone who was in the know. He is guilty. I know you probably don't want to take my word for it but he very much was.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#88 - 2015-11-06 16:10:11 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
. You can read our forums if you like.


Not to say anyone is leaking anything...

...but anyone who's leaking NDA info, anywhere, not just here. Who's worth 2 grains of salt knows never to leak anything in such a manner where the source can't be pointed elsewhere, and impossible to trace back to the individual.

Which makes the quote in question literally worthless...


Coming from me it doesn't. Coming from someone like Elise, who has access to everything, it absolutely doesn't. It's fair to say I dont know everything about PL's inner workings, and I cannot rule out the possibility he shared something with someone privately that I am obllivious to. But I have spoken to him, at length, in the past, and know this is not something he would do flippantly, or in order to give PL an advantage. The offer for CCP to read our forums was to show that we are being as open as we POSSIBLY can be about this. Hell, I know Elise has made the same offer in the past.

CCP want to keep this matter between themselves and Manny, even though, in exceptional circumstances (like hydra cheating) everyone knew everything, and all of the information regarding the bannings in the tournament were completely publicised. Perhaps because CCP had proof. Because this is not the case in this particular incident, I cannot help but feel CCP does not have any proof.

This isn't a democracy, CCP get to decide what to do. But the fact they won't tell us is going to create a bad vibe between us. We want to be open on this. Unless CCP can show us proof, then I have to call their accusations bullshit. I know manny, I certainly dont know the CCP employees who chose to remove him. So until anything changes, I'm siding with manny on this, and saying that his removal from the CSM was based on poor assumption, rather than objective fact.


As someone who was in the know. He is guilty. I know you probably don't want to take my word for it but he very much was.


Don't take this the wrong way, but im not going to take your word for it no, especially not considering you're in goonswarm, an alliance i would seriously consider to be using CSM intel for market speculation.

IF you can show me proof of it however...

That being said, I think it's really ****** of you to come out and say 'yes he was cheating' without saying why, even if it is just to say 'it would not give PL an advantage' or the opposite. It sounds like youre trying to play petty politics.

This isnt a personal attack on you, but honestly, the CSM SHOULD (heh) be above politics and a way in which all alliances try and improve the game they play in. Using it to score cheap points seems like a really crappy thing to do. Either tell us what you know, or dont say anything, because you stir the pot and its not fair on anyone.
Tairon Usaro
G-Fleet Alpha
#89 - 2015-11-06 16:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tairon Usaro
The decission is undisputable, but sorry the communication is not good. To my eyes an elected CSM member must not be removed without a given reason, otherwise it questions the whole CSM role and process. I do not need to know the dirty details, but there should be top level reasons like breach of NDA, poor participation, personal reasons etc. which do not harm the person who got removed too much, but give the voters a chance to understand why their votes are nullified.
Ander
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2015-11-06 18:12:28 UTC
I can offer CCP access to audit the PL forums if necessary.
This includes dellta-diff data for a long period back in time. (This is authenticated with a thirdparty service we use for backups, would be very hard for us to fake anything... unless we can move time backwards at Amazon.)

However, I seriously doubt Manny did anything that is related to PL.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2015-11-06 19:28:05 UTC
Mr Rive wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
. You can read our forums if you like.


Not to say anyone is leaking anything...

...but anyone who's leaking NDA info, anywhere, not just here. Who's worth 2 grains of salt knows never to leak anything in such a manner where the source can't be pointed elsewhere, and impossible to trace back to the individual.

Which makes the quote in question literally worthless...


Coming from me it doesn't. Coming from someone like Elise, who has access to everything, it absolutely doesn't. It's fair to say I dont know everything about PL's inner workings, and I cannot rule out the possibility he shared something with someone privately that I am obllivious to. But I have spoken to him, at length, in the past, and know this is not something he would do flippantly, or in order to give PL an advantage. The offer for CCP to read our forums was to show that we are being as open as we POSSIBLY can be about this. Hell, I know Elise has made the same offer in the past.

CCP want to keep this matter between themselves and Manny, even though, in exceptional circumstances (like hydra cheating) everyone knew everything, and all of the information regarding the bannings in the tournament were completely publicised. Perhaps because CCP had proof. Because this is not the case in this particular incident, I cannot help but feel CCP does not have any proof.

This isn't a democracy, CCP get to decide what to do. But the fact they won't tell us is going to create a bad vibe between us. We want to be open on this. Unless CCP can show us proof, then I have to call their accusations bullshit. I know manny, I certainly dont know the CCP employees who chose to remove him. So until anything changes, I'm siding with manny on this, and saying that his removal from the CSM was based on poor assumption, rather than objective fact.


As someone who was in the know. He is guilty. I know you probably don't want to take my word for it but he very much was.


Don't take this the wrong way, but im not going to take your word for it no, especially not considering you're in goonswarm, an alliance i would seriously consider to be using CSM intel for market speculation.

IF you can show me proof of it however...

That being said, I think it's really ****** of you to come out and say 'yes he was cheating' without saying why, even if it is just to say 'it would not give PL an advantage' or the opposite. It sounds like youre trying to play petty politics.

This isnt a personal attack on you, but honestly, the CSM SHOULD (heh) be above politics and a way in which all alliances try and improve the game they play in. Using it to score cheap points seems like a really crappy thing to do. Either tell us what you know, or dont say anything, because you stir the pot and its not fair on anyone.


I leaked everything in had directly into structures tweetfleet slack for this very reason. Saying who leaked and what he leaked weeks in advance. Directly in front of CCP. So, yes, I have "proof" for the taking if you were one of those 350+ people who saw it.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Koz Katral
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#92 - 2015-11-06 21:47:40 UTC
Aryth wrote:

I leaked everything in had directly into structures tweetfleet slack for this very reason. Saying who leaked and what he leaked weeks in advance. Directly in front of CCP. So, yes, I have "proof" for the taking if you were one of those 350+ people who saw it.


nah
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#93 - 2015-11-06 23:46:54 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
REFORM THE CSM!
Vote Xenuria~

Seriously though, I said this stuff would happen. You didn't listen.
Literal writing on the wall, that half the community ignored.
A former member of the CSM even went so far as to compare my reform platform to the gestapo.

If the CSM is to survive it needs to change and grow like any other system within this living story we call EvE Online.



http://capstable.net/blog/2015/01/12/xenuria/ Start about 9:07

Grrrr goon candidate becomes a goon candidate?

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Vintare
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2015-11-07 11:24:03 UTC
Well, if people do not learn, CCP just should take legal action.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me more - get f***ing sued.

Otherwise people will not learn. NDA is not something to fool around with and it should be made apparent. Just make an example without any life breaking consequences for the removed CMS member, but send a message: next time it will be serious.
Xenuria
#95 - 2015-11-07 12:57:05 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
REFORM THE CSM!
Vote Xenuria~

Seriously though, I said this stuff would happen. You didn't listen.
Literal writing on the wall, that half the community ignored.
A former member of the CSM even went so far as to compare my reform platform to the gestapo.

If the CSM is to survive it needs to change and grow like any other system within this living story we call EvE Online.



http://capstable.net/blog/2015/01/12/xenuria/ Start about 9:07

Grrrr goon candidate becomes a goon candidate?


I am not a goon candidate. I am first and foremost a reform candidate. Take your foot out of your mouth and check my employment history.

CSM 12 Candidate
Marsha Mallow
#96 - 2015-11-08 00:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Xenuria wrote:
I am not a goon candidate. I am first and foremost a reform candidate. Take your foot out of your mouth and check my employment history.

Actually, you are now. Whether they endorse you or not due to affiliation, yer a goon.

Welcome to dodging the very argument you lobbed at everyone else.

I am eagerly awaiting your attempts to wiggle out of this with a straight face.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Tornii
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2015-11-08 09:18:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tornii
Arrendis wrote:
Tornii wrote:
I'm just curious - if the CSM is a democratically elected body responsible to its voters, how can reasons for such a change "of course remain confidential"?


Because disciplinary action usually remains confidential unless initiated within the democratic process as a matter of protecting the privacy of the person being disciplined. Get your head out of the tabloid media, please.

You clearly missed my point there. I didn't ask why the reason remained confidential, I asked why it should /would "of course" happen so for any case.

Also, limit yourself to the point instead of adding nonsense in an effort to make your posts sound cooler, please.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#98 - 2015-11-08 21:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Xenuria

KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation wrote:



I am not a goon candidate.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2015-11-12 05:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Mr Rive wrote:
CCP Leeloo wrote:


The reasoning for his removal will of course remain confidential between CCP and Manfred, and we would like to thank him for his contributions during his term with CSM X.

- CCP Leeloo


This is really daft. Now everyone is going to be continually accusing us of getting insider information. If this is the case, you should tell us, not only for everyone else's sake, but for the people of PL who got VERY frustrated at manny because he would go OUT OF HIS WAY not to break NDA. You can read our forums if you like.



You you are saying you and your fellow alliance member were frustrated when he followed the rules? Could he have caved in under the pressure of his alliance?

Mr Rive wrote:


This isn't a democracy, CCP get to decide what to do. But the fact they won't tell us is going to create a bad vibe between us. We want to be open on this. Unless CCP can show us proof, then I have to call their accusations bullshit. I know manny, I certainly dont know the CCP employees who chose to remove him. So until anything changes, I'm siding with manny on this, and saying that his removal from the CSM was based on poor assumption, rather than objective fact.


Except that open the door for people to ask for reason for any judgement CCP ever does. Why should PL's CSM representative case be treated differently than any other disciplinary action taken by CCP?

Ander wrote:
I can offer CCP access to audit the PL forums if necessary.
This includes dellta-diff data for a long period back in time. (This is authenticated with a thirdparty service we use for backups, would be very hard for us to fake anything... unless we can move time backwards at Amazon.)

However, I seriously doubt Manny did anything that is related to PL.



How about skype? Mumble? teamspeak? External e-mails? Phone calls? Any other communication means that could of been used to leak something while also being much harder to track back which in case of a leak happen to be a rather valuable "feature" for a communication media... Auditing your forum is useless unless you somehow could prove there is absolutely no possible way for info to be leaked else where.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2015-12-09 19:47:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Xenuria

KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation wrote:



I am not a goon candidate.


You can be certain that even if he gets a top spot on our ballot, enough Imperium people hate him for old reasons to bump him off their ballot completely

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.