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Fourteen Maken

Karma and Causality

Likes received: 276

#161 - 2015-10-17 23:39:00 UTC | Edited by: Fourteen Maken

Portmanteau wrote:

unidenify wrote:

Navy Griffen is Merlin on steroid with Kitsune ECM level
It has .25 effective turret more over Merlin (2 x100% vs 3x25%)
It go 15m/s faster than merlin
it has extra 150 raw shield hp
And, it can use 1 light drone

I'm fairly wobbly at working out stats without looking at EFT upon release but I seem to get 216 heated DPS with void (4 unbonused neutrons + a collision rig) plus 22 for a rocket launcher and another 20 from a hobgob. *if* that would fit that would be 258 dps plus the effective jam strength of a flight of light ecm drones from a 20%/lvl multispec ?

It looks like a fit of damage control, AAR, compact AB, 2 X5 webs, J5B scram, Multispec jammer, 2 Neutrons, 1 Rocket launcher, 1 dmg rig, 2 resist rigs will just fit. Would appreciate anyone who can point out how far out this guesswork is ?

the dps is nothing special for brawling with blasters, a T2 fit merlin can put out 270dps if you want it to with two webs, a scram, an ab and still have more tank than this at a fraction of the cost and the only difference is it doesn't have a gimped ecm module.

the navy griffin has a tank of 2.7k ehp, + 2.4kehp from aar but it won't have enough cap for aar with 2 webs a scram an ecm and an ab to run plus it will dissolve against neuts even without the aar running so let's not go there. i wouldn't brawl in blaster range with a t1 frig with 2.7k ehp anyway, let alone a faction frig. I'd want an armor plate because the thing is made of paper and would probably be one or two shotted by most alpha fits, which means it will be even slower than it already is so it's going to need 2 webs, a scram, and an ab just to keep range in a brawl - I wouldn't be bothering with 22dps from an unbonused rocket launcher either when im trying to work in neut range. Since i'd want a neut myself (some proper ewar), and relying so heavily on cap for dps and running all my active modules i'd want a cap booster to make sure i don't get switched off after 10 seconds. so i don't even have a slot left for my gimped 4km range ecm module Cry

, and i definitely wouldn't swap a cap booster or a web for that. Even if the ecm wasn't gimped it's still ****, but at least you have a chance of escaping kiters.

It's not just bad - it's ******* awful, whoever designed it hasn't a clue what they're doing! Time will prove me right Evil

Doomheim 520
Ix Method Doomheim Likes received: 520	#162 - 2015-10-17 23:41:03 UTC Jeremiah Saken wrote: Hilarious. Caldari still have kinetic lock because of reason. We'll never have proper balancing if you'll be doing it. If the alternative is the **** DPS of the Cyclone you should probably be thankful. Travelling at the speed of love.


Fourteen Maken Karma and Causality Likes received: 276	#163 - 2015-10-17 23:48:04 UTC Portmanteau wrote: How many solo pvpers you know pack FOF missiles ? All of the ones who know what they're doing, it's not just ecm either kiters like garmurs will want them to deal with damps as well.

Fourteen Maken

Karma and Causality

Likes received: 276

#164 - 2015-10-18 00:05:21 UTC

unidenify wrote:

No it's not a merlin on steroids, i think your on drugs though
Merlin has an extra low for Mag stab
Merlin has a 4% level resist bonus so it has more tank
Merlin doesn't need to use it's lows for armor tanking so it has another low slot to use
Merlin is a fraction of the cost
Kitsune has 76km optimal on it's ecm before fittings, the navy griffin will have 4km optimal.
but it can use 1 light drone, with no spares. you're right about that much at least

Portmanteau

Iron Krosz

Likes received: 212

#165 - 2015-10-18 01:53:57 UTC | Edited by: Portmanteau

Fourteen Maken wrote:

Portmanteau wrote:

How many solo pvpers you know pack FOF missiles ?

All of the ones who know what they're doing, it's not just ecm either kiters like garmurs will want them to deal with damps as well.

Ok mate, I just looked at the last 10 garmur losses on zkill... not a single one had FoF missiles in cargo. Perhaps you are right and they should carry them, but they don't. Thing is, if you end up engaging a garmur in this new fangled griffin, you are doing it very wrong (or you just screwed up which happens). Your targets are going to be scram range frigates (or kitey frigs that you land on top of which melt super quick anyway). Of those scram range frigates which use missiles, they will be using rockets... there are no FoF rockets so your point doesn't make a lot of sense.

This thing can easily be fit like other 2web frigates and rely on range, gank and ewar to cover the basic armor tank short comings. Think dual web hookbill, merlin, kestrel, heron, helios, breacher (yes, breacher). It has a lot of damage, that will be perfectly applied with 2 webs, it has equivalent to a flight of light ECM drones with a multispec jammer and with 2webs that's as much getthefeckout ability as you might want in a brawl that's going south.

It can most likely fit a decent 2 web fit and shield extender/ASB tank as well. This will not be crap by any means.

The thing that will **** ppl off is being jammed in a 1v1. It usually only happens when you get blobbed (at least to me anyway). If I see this griffin in a plex I will likely not engage as even if not perma jammed, being jammed at all is no fun and you know it's p much going to happen in a 1v1 against this. If I fly one, I expect a lot of people to just not bother taking the fight for the same reasons. I hope you are right tho and everyone thinks they are crud, I'm not averse to easy kills.

EDIT : 2web rail/TD fit is another possible fit if the jamming bonus doesn't scare everyone away

Fourteen Maken

Karma and Causality

Likes received: 276

#166 - 2015-10-18 03:32:20 UTC

Portmanteau wrote:

I hope you are right tho and everyone thinks they are crud

If this was just about ship balance or meta I could take it or leave it, but this is about faction war LP stores as well and they are already extremely imbalanced if you want to read the link in my sig.

You might not care if anyone flies these or not, but calmil are relying on them to fund their pvp, and I already know these will not be used nearly as much as the Navy Vigil or the Navy Maulus, and you do too if you're honest. What this means is a bad LP store just got worse, and this is the same deal Caldari always get, we have the worst navy ships in game, calmil can't afford to field anything bigger than t1 cruisers while galmil mince around in pimped faction ships, and most of the farmers are in galmil grinding our systems.. So you can White knight for the devs like i've seen in every balance thread ever, but at the end of the day our LP store is a 1/3 of what Gallente's is so more often than not people like you who tell us everything is fine and our ships are going to be beeyootiful or outright OP are proven wrong.

First of all ECM is not good for solo, and it's definitely not good for blaster range. It's for fleets, sitting behind your dps guys at least 70km off the enemy with rainbow jams and very little tank... this ******* thing can't do that, it can't even use ecm to push off kiters so most of it's bonuses are cancelled out by the ridiculous 85% range nerf. Whats left is a hull that's slower than the others, with only one usable bonus, no ewar bonus, less drones, slowest locking time (always nice on a brawling ship when a kiter warps in and burns past your scram range before you can get scram on him), basically gimped in every single way they could think of... it's clearly not going to be used.

I mean you're right about the Garmur, this ship has no business engaging a garmur, but there really aren't many ships it can engage... kiters - no, scram kiters no, other navy frigs no, other navy ewar frigs no, cruisers and up no, t3D's hell no. I mean I'm pretty sure a lot of the t1 frigs will embarrass this, especially if you waste slots rolling with an ecm module in the hope you might get a jam off.

Portmanteau

Iron Krosz

Likes received: 212

#167 - 2015-10-18 03:56:46 UTC | Edited by: Portmanteau

Fourteen Maken wrote:

Portmanteau wrote:

I hope you are right tho and everyone thinks they are crud

If you can't see how a 5 midslot frig with 20%/level hybrid bonus a launcher point and a drone is good then I can't help you. It's like a blaster/rail hookbill and it has a healthy ECM bonus too... I can't walk you through this anymore, they will sell ...

EDIT : WHITE KNIGHT FOR THE DEVS... ARE YOU NUTS ? I'm about as negative whinging old git as you can get in this game and I've spent most of today and yesterday slagging off skillpoint selling and the frig balancing proposals :)

tasman devil

Puritans

Likes received: 86

#168 - 2015-10-18 08:23:43 UTC

Leonardo Adami wrote:

tasman devil wrote:

Hahnid wrote:

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Let us know what you think!

That's what I think about the changes and ewar in general!

So why do Minnies get web range, but Amarr no neut range?
Years ago I thought of ewar something like this

T1 Ewar (use for tactical advantage):
Amarr - Tracking Disruption
Minmatar - Target Painting
Gallente - Sensor Dampening
Caldari - ECM (with no range bonus, less strength or less midslots)

T2 Ewar (use for disabling ships):
Amarr - Energy Neutralizer
Minmatar - Web (range)
Gallente - Scramble (range)
Caldari - ECM (range and strength)

Geddon has neutrange? Caldari has the Scorpion? What's with Minmatar and Gallente?
Dragoon has neutrange, too?

Does this make sense? Do you get what I try to imply? So many questions, I know Big smile

Was something like that before this tiericide nonsense.

Now we have missile-spawning, droneboat Geddons (seriously: the f*?!?!)

They are just patching holes instead of getting things back into order and more in line with lore.

(ps. Lore MK.II should be imho:
Amarr - med/long range laser+armour+ab
Caldari - close range blaster+missile+shield+mwd
Gallente - stand off drone+rails+armour+ab
Minmatar - jack of all trades, master of none - projectile+mostly shield+mwd

It stands to reason that the races can will and should evolve over time. Given how long this game has been around then I see no problem ships evolving and changing.

I'd still opt for evolving in different ways:

i.e. Tech 1 ships should stay in line with lore, Tech 2 ships should be against the "lore enemy", Tech 3 should be "situation dependent" like what they did with the T3Ds

I don't belive in reincarnation I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...

Desiderya

Blue Canary

Watch This

Likes received: 1,203

#169 - 2015-10-18 10:29:07 UTC

The Navy Griffin as presented would be a very good ship even without ever using ECM. It is rather similar to a navy comet.
As far as ECM not being good solo - I don't know in what world you are living, but a racial jam more or less guarantees you a successful hit on another frigate.
Even if the first jam misses you end up fighting a ship that has very strong dps while having no range control whatsoever. So, yes, once in jam range,the fight is over. 20 seconds is a long time in face melt range.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Harreeb Alls

God of Terrorr

Domain Research and Mining Inst.

Likes received: 31

#170 - 2015-10-18 11:10:42 UTC

I'd prefer the racial tank bonus's over damage. They wont be very useful if the are outshined by ewar ships with much greater range,which translates to safety and survivability. Give them racial tank bonus, and mwd sig bonus, and ewar bonus and you might have something. O and tons of speed. The issue most frigs face in eve is anti tackle has become super strong. First there where the new t1 dessies algos ,talwar, dragoon,corax with drone or missiles they dumpster frigs at range. Now you have the buffed t2 dessiea, t3 dessies, buffed t1 cruiser, and faction cruisers. A lot of these move almost as fast as a frig, have excellent damage application to frigs, and range. As it stands now it is much harder to even stay on grid at 50km in light tackle compared to before fozzie ship balancing.Brawling ewar frigs with no tank or damage mitigation bonus's will be less useful then the choices currently available for ewar or brawling.

Nagarythe Tinurandir

Einheit X-6

Likes received: 237

#171 - 2015-10-18 12:12:14 UTC

I'll chime right in with the "wedontneedthem" crowd.

Or go all the way, proclaim powercreep and make a navy version of every T1 frig. Then, take responsibility and delete T1 frigs altogether.

Eve already has a lot of ships, alot of them could use another balance pass. New ships should only be introduced, if they bring novel mechanics with them, especially on the frigate front. Differences between single ships start to become very small to the point were "meaningful choice" is just a buzzword and HULLSHAPEs are the new SKINs....

The Fall of Leviathan 830
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan Likes received: 830	#172 - 2015-10-18 13:37:43 UTC 13 new ships. 4 ewar frigs, 4 new destroyers. 5 left, pirate factions stuff? "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Abiding Ormolus 357
Starbuck05 Abiding Ormolus Likes received: 357	#173 - 2015-10-18 13:49:00 UTC 1 the crucifier and grifin seem alright but the maulus and the vigil will be OP .. scram kite maulus .... and kite vigil ... epic Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !

UNSAFE SPACE 348
Ares Desideratus UNSAFE SPACE Likes received: 348	#174 - 2015-10-18 14:12:02 UTC Jeremiah Saken wrote: 13 new ships. 4 ewar frigs, 4 new destroyers. 5 left, pirate factions stuff? WHAT DESTROYERS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

Amarrian Vengeance Ragequit Cancel Sub 389
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Ragequit Cancel Sub Likes received: 389	#175 - 2015-10-18 14:21:36 UTC Jeremiah Saken wrote: 13 new ships. 4 ewar frigs, 4 new destroyers. 5 left, pirate factions stuff? 4 ewar navy frigs 4 destroyers 1 mining frigate thing So 4 left. Navy destroyers or tech 2 logi frigs. Please don't be tech 2 logi frigs.........

Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Horde 3,190
Rowells Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Horde Likes received: 3,190	#176 - 2015-10-18 14:41:01 UTC 1 Ares Desideratus wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: 13 new ships. 4 ewar frigs, 4 new destroyers. 5 left, pirate factions stuff? WHAT DESTROYERS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT No details, just vague planning