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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#461 - 2015-10-29 04:01:10 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules.
Even if you gave the hookbill more fitting space, I'd still fit them as armor/scramkite. If I wanted to shield tank, I'd fly a hawk. If I wanted to kite, I'd fly a Crow, Garmur, Worm, Malediction, Condor etc etc.

To be fair, you really can't use light missile effectively on it due to the fitting restrictions. If you had more room it might be preferable to the armor build, i think.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#462 - 2015-10-29 04:02:37 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I will continue to say this again as many times as I need to until it gets acknowledged:

The Hookbill's problem is NOT dps. IT'S THE DAMN FITTING SPACE!

Compared to even other t1 frigs, it's subpar. I am going to lay this out for anyone who doesn't understand how BAD a problem this is.

1. The hookbill has an extra bonused weapon over its navy faction counterparts, as well as the highest number of mid slots (5) out of all the navy frigates. Despite this, it only has 5.5 more total cpu than the closest competitor, the Navy Comet, and less powergrid than ANY of the other 3, (50 pg each), wheres the Hookbill pushes barely over 46.

2. It cannot make use of all of its mid slots without investing heavily into CPU modules even IF you have top skills. God forbid you want to fit a tank on it; the 3rd missile launcher takes up much of the cpu needed for the mids (compare to the Firetail, which barely uses any cpu at all for autocannons), and you end up having to fit at least 1 power grid module or rig to fit JUST 3 rocket launchers, a mwd, and a medium shield extender. To start with, you HAVE to fit a power grid mod. Then you HAVE to fit a cpu mod if you want to make full use of your mids.

3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules.

4. You cannot, i repeat, CANNOT fit an effective light missile build without completely negating dps in favor of fitting modules. While capacitor remains an issue at any level, kiting builds tend to fill up their mid slots with such goodies as damps, tracking disruptors, and the occasional TP for a roaming gang. Generally it is to be expected that such fits on any frigate that aren't specialized for it will run out of capacitor fairly quickly, but it's particularly problematic for a combat frigate with 5 mid slots that can't really use them all that well to begin with.

5. With all this in mind, there are only two realistic options for a rebalance: Either drop a launcher and increase the bonus to 50% kinetic dmg and 40% dmg for em, therm, and explosive with a small increase in CPU, or retain your current idea but add a moderate to significant increase in powergrid and CPU. Either way it is absolutely necessary that the base PG and CPU get a bump.

And for anyone wondering, i am not just talking out my ass here. I've been in calmil on and off for years, and anyone who has talked to me for any length of time knows i am absolutely obsessed about fit crafting. I KNOW this ship, and i can tell you as much as i want to love it, it remains craptastic due to anemic fitting space. This NEEDS to change.


Thats what keeps it interesting though, hookbill will be very strong after the changes anyways, with endless fitting it would be op.

It's not endless fitting; just bringing it up to the fitting space of the others is what i want. As it stands, you really can't use light missiles on it, and it's obscene that you can't really fit a good build without any fitting mods or rigs.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#463 - 2015-10-29 04:14:56 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I will continue to say this again as many times as I need to until it gets acknowledged:

The Hookbill's problem is NOT dps. IT'S THE DAMN FITTING SPACE!

Compared to even other t1 frigs, it's subpar. I am going to lay this out for anyone who doesn't understand how BAD a problem this is.

1. The hookbill has an extra bonused weapon over its navy faction counterparts, as well as the highest number of mid slots (5) out of all the navy frigates. Despite this, it only has 5.5 more total cpu than the closest competitor, the Navy Comet, and less powergrid than ANY of the other 3, (50 pg each), wheres the Hookbill pushes barely over 46.

2. It cannot make use of all of its mid slots without investing heavily into CPU modules even IF you have top skills. God forbid you want to fit a tank on it; the 3rd missile launcher takes up much of the cpu needed for the mids (compare to the Firetail, which barely uses any cpu at all for autocannons), and you end up having to fit at least 1 power grid module or rig to fit JUST 3 rocket launchers, a mwd, and a medium shield extender. To start with, you HAVE to fit a power grid mod. Then you HAVE to fit a cpu mod if you want to make full use of your mids.

3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules.

4. You cannot, i repeat, CANNOT fit an effective light missile build without completely negating dps in favor of fitting modules. While capacitor remains an issue at any level, kiting builds tend to fill up their mid slots with such goodies as damps, tracking disruptors, and the occasional TP for a roaming gang. Generally it is to be expected that such fits on any frigate that aren't specialized for it will run out of capacitor fairly quickly, but it's particularly problematic for a combat frigate with 5 mid slots that can't really use them all that well to begin with.

5. With all this in mind, there are only two realistic options for a rebalance: Either drop a launcher and increase the bonus to 50% kinetic dmg and 40% dmg for em, therm, and explosive with a small increase in CPU, or retain your current idea but add a moderate to significant increase in powergrid and CPU. Either way it is absolutely necessary that the base PG and CPU get a bump.

And for anyone wondering, i am not just talking out my ass here. I've been in calmil on and off for years, and anyone who has talked to me for any length of time knows i am absolutely obsessed about fit crafting. I KNOW this ship, and i can tell you as much as i want to love it, it remains craptastic due to anemic fitting space. This NEEDS to change.


Thats what keeps it interesting though, hookbill will be very strong after the changes anyways, with endless fitting it would be op.

It's not endless fitting; just bringing it up to the fitting space of the others is what i want. As it stands, you really can't use light missiles on it, and it's obscene that you can't really fit a good build without any fitting mods or rigs.


Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that.
Idame Isqua
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#464 - 2015-10-29 04:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Idame Isqua
I still don't understand the logic behind gimping caldari capacitors.

CCPlease

For example: You say extra utility on Osprey will add interesting cap warfare possibilities


Currently:

EFT says fitting 2 medium neuts and a mwd leaves me with 55s of cap

EFT says the Osprey has the exact same capacitor as the Vexor

EFT says the Vexor has 250 more PG than the osprey

Vexor has a 50% bonus to drones
Osprey has a 50% bonus to missiles (yae this is getting buffed)

Ok if I shield fit both of them the Navy Osprey has 10K more EFT EHP

But common I'm seriously comparing a Vexor with a Navy Osprey here


However drones are still far superior to missiles in terms of applied DPS
And these new ewar mods will make it even worse

What about having some sort of anti drone ewar area of effect module?
Like a jam burst kinda thing maybe effecting jamming or causing them to randomly retarget something close (similar to auto-missiles).
Or maybe like a thing you can shoot that's a drone web/net but with a 5km radius

I always thought DRONES = MISSILES

Yet their is no way in lowsec to counter drones, apart from having your own drones attack them.
Presuming your fitting anti cruiser launchers like H(A)Ms
Even then you pretty much have to web each drone down again and again as they are replaced as soon as they are lost

And no I don't want smart bombs in lowsec because firewalls.

And when I say lowsec I really mean in Faction Warfare

Lighting up a smartbomb in factionwarfare gets you booted out very quickly
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#465 - 2015-10-29 08:07:32 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules.
Even if you gave the hookbill more fitting space, I'd still fit them as armor/scramkite. If I wanted to shield tank, I'd fly a hawk. If I wanted to kite, I'd fly a Crow, Garmur, Worm, Malediction, Condor etc etc.


That may be, but at least everyone wouldn't immediately know what your fit was, and it would be possible for players who don't have perfect fitting skills to use the hookbill without gimping it with fitting mods.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#466 - 2015-10-29 08:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
W0lf Crendraven wrote:



Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that.


What's your agenda? Clearly nothing to do with ship balance, or a fair lp store

Faction Frigates usage from z killboard

1. Navy Slicer: 41,281 destroyed = 412 281 000 lp
2. Fed Navy Comet: 39,150 destroyed = 391 500 000 lp
3. Fleet Firetail: 21,435 destroyed = 214 350 000 lp
4. Navy Hookbill: 11,337 destroyed = 113 370 000 lp


going from 6 to 6.75 turrets is not going to fix that.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6124854#post6124854

He's fine with the Fleet Vigil... "because lml kiting is in a really bad place"

Fleet Vigil Fittings: 38 PWG, 190 CPU Not OP according to him
Faster hull, 15m3 drone bay, 50% web bonus but still not OP according to W0lf

Hookbill fittings: 37PWG, 165CPU has to fit an extra launcher,an extra midslot, less low slots for fitting mods, slower hull, no drones, no web range bonus no application bonus... but this ship would be OP if it got a fittings buff.

Roll
bunzing heet
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#467 - 2015-10-29 11:29:34 UTC
soooooo.....


ccp when is this hitting sisi?

Fly safe keep killing And remember I'm watching you !!!!
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#468 - 2015-10-29 11:53:19 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:



Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that.


What's your agenda? Clearly nothing to do with ship balance, or a fair lp store

Faction Frigates usage from z killboard

1. Navy Slicer: 41,281 destroyed = 412 281 000 lp
2. Fed Navy Comet: 39,150 destroyed = 391 500 000 lp
3. Fleet Firetail: 21,435 destroyed = 214 350 000 lp
4. Navy Hookbill: 11,337 destroyed = 113 370 000 lp


going from 6 to 6.75 turrets is not going to fix that.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6124854#post6124854

He's fine with the Fleet Vigil... "because lml kiting is in a really bad place"

Fleet Vigil Fittings: 38 PWG, 190 CPU Not OP according to him
Faster hull, 15m3 drone bay, 50% web bonus but still not OP according to W0lf

Hookbill fittings: 37PWG, 165CPU has to fit an extra launcher,an extra midslot, less low slots for fitting mods, slower hull, less drone bay, no web range bonus no application bonus... but this ship would be OP if it got a fittings buff.

Roll


This is one of those scenarios where the devs should actually post an example fit so we can see where the vessel was balanced towards.

But the facts are the facts, the hookbill is bad, the double-web/scram kite fits of years past has been overtaken by less skill demanding ships with better overall stats and easier piloting.

give the hookbill +10 pg and +30cpu and see what happens.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#469 - 2015-10-29 12:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Idame Isqua wrote:
I still don't understand the logic behind gimping caldari capacitors.

CCPlease

For example: You say extra utility on Osprey will add interesting cap warfare possibilities


Currently:

EFT says fitting 2 medium neuts and a mwd leaves me with 55s of cap

EFT says the Osprey has the exact same capacitor as the Vexor

EFT says the Vexor has 250 more PG than the osprey

Vexor has a 50% bonus to drones
Osprey has a 50% bonus to missiles (yae this is getting buffed)

Ok if I shield fit both of them the Navy Osprey has 10K more EFT EHP

But common I'm seriously comparing a Vexor with a Navy Osprey here


However drones are still far superior to missiles in terms of applied DPS
And these new ewar mods will make it even worse

What about having some sort of anti drone ewar area of effect module?
Like a jam burst kinda thing maybe effecting jamming or causing them to randomly retarget something close (similar to auto-missiles).
Or maybe like a thing you can shoot that's a drone web/net but with a 5km radius

I always thought DRONES = MISSILES

Yet their is no way in lowsec to counter drones, apart from having your own drones attack them.
Presuming your fitting anti cruiser launchers like H(A)Ms
Even then you pretty much have to web each drone down again and again as they are replaced as soon as they are lost

And no I don't want smart bombs in lowsec because firewalls.

And when I say lowsec I really mean in Faction Warfare

Lighting up a smartbomb in factionwarfare gets you booted out very quickly


You dont run dual neuts/mwd at the same time. Unless you are preventing scram from a frig. However, even if you do, dual medium neuts will nuke most frigs cap in 1 cycle. So you are not perma running neuts/mwd. If you are tackled or tackling, then the mwd is off.

The nosprey has 6 mids, use one for a cap booster. Scyfi, nomen, navy exeq all need cap boosters to kite effectively as well. The nosprey isnt the only fleet cruiser that suffers from this. Its a balancing point. These are fast and very agile cruisers, being able to perma kite is not ideal.

That being said, id rather see a shield resist bonus on the nosprey than velocity bonus. The last thing we need is another rlml ship with a range bonus. More brawler missile ships plz. Or change velocity bonus to explosion radius.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#470 - 2015-10-29 14:44:20 UTC
Idame Isqua wrote:
I still don't understand the logic behind gimping caldari capacitors.

CCPlease

For example: You say extra utility on Osprey will add interesting cap warfare possibilities


Currently:

EFT says fitting 2 medium neuts and a mwd leaves me with 55s of cap

EFT says the Osprey has the exact same capacitor as the Vexor

EFT says the Vexor has 250 more PG than the osprey

Vexor has a 50% bonus to drones
Osprey has a 50% bonus to missiles (yae this is getting buffed)

Ok if I shield fit both of them the Navy Osprey has 10K more EFT EHP

But common I'm seriously comparing a Vexor with a Navy Osprey here


However drones are still far superior to missiles in terms of applied DPS
And these new ewar mods will make it even worse

What about having some sort of anti drone ewar area of effect module?
Like a jam burst kinda thing maybe effecting jamming or causing them to randomly retarget something close (similar to auto-missiles).
Or maybe like a thing you can shoot that's a drone web/net but with a 5km radius

I always thought DRONES = MISSILES

Yet their is no way in lowsec to counter drones, apart from having your own drones attack them.
Presuming your fitting anti cruiser launchers like H(A)Ms
Even then you pretty much have to web each drone down again and again as they are replaced as soon as they are lost

And no I don't want smart bombs in lowsec because firewalls.

And when I say lowsec I really mean in Faction Warfare

Lighting up a smartbomb in factionwarfare gets you booted out very quickly



The Navy Osprey changes are spot on. Why would you want to fit two medium neuts? You only need one medium and one small to keep the guy capped out, and realistically that's all you have fitting space for anyway.

And no stitch it's not "another" rlml boat with a range bonus, because it's always been a rlml boat with a range bonus and your suggestions would put it back in the dumpster beside the Navy Caracal for another 5 years - so no thanks. If any ship is meant for RLML kiting it's the Navy Osprey, if any RLML ship should lose it's range bonus (and I'm not saying it should) but it would have to be the 10mil isk t1 Caracal - not the 70mil+ navy osprey or we end up with t1 cruisers being better than caldari navy cruisers which is the whole probelm anyway.

If a ship were to be changed for missile brawling it could be the Navy Caracal with 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount and a few other tweaks as well, but I'd rather dump it and get a Navy Moa with a range bonus for medium rails instead.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#471 - 2015-10-29 15:36:01 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Idame Isqua wrote:
I still don't understand the logic behind gimping caldari capacitors.

CCPlease

For example: You say extra utility on Osprey will add interesting cap warfare possibilities


Currently:

EFT says fitting 2 medium neuts and a mwd leaves me with 55s of cap

EFT says the Osprey has the exact same capacitor as the Vexor

EFT says the Vexor has 250 more PG than the osprey

Vexor has a 50% bonus to drones
Osprey has a 50% bonus to missiles (yae this is getting buffed)

Ok if I shield fit both of them the Navy Osprey has 10K more EFT EHP

But common I'm seriously comparing a Vexor with a Navy Osprey here


However drones are still far superior to missiles in terms of applied DPS
And these new ewar mods will make it even worse

What about having some sort of anti drone ewar area of effect module?
Like a jam burst kinda thing maybe effecting jamming or causing them to randomly retarget something close (similar to auto-missiles).
Or maybe like a thing you can shoot that's a drone web/net but with a 5km radius

I always thought DRONES = MISSILES

Yet their is no way in lowsec to counter drones, apart from having your own drones attack them.
Presuming your fitting anti cruiser launchers like H(A)Ms
Even then you pretty much have to web each drone down again and again as they are replaced as soon as they are lost

And no I don't want smart bombs in lowsec because firewalls.

And when I say lowsec I really mean in Faction Warfare

Lighting up a smartbomb in factionwarfare gets you booted out very quickly



The Navy Osprey changes are spot on. Why would you want to fit two medium neuts? You only need one medium and one small to keep the guy capped out, and realistically that's all you have fitting space for anyway.

And no stitch it's not "another" rlml boat with a range bonus, because it's always been a rlml boat with a range bonus and your suggestions would put it back in the dumpster beside the Navy Caracal for another 5 years - so no thanks. If any ship is meant for RLML kiting it's the Navy Osprey, if any RLML ship should lose it's range bonus (and I'm not saying it should) but it would have to be the 10mil isk t1 Caracal - not the 70mil+ navy osprey or we end up with t1 cruisers being better than caldari navy cruisers which is the whole probelm anyway.

If a ship were to be changed for missile brawling it could be the Navy Caracal with 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount and a few other tweaks as well, but I'd rather dump it and get a Navy Moa with a range bonus for medium rails instead.


I will agree to rephrase the "not another" RLML comment. As the nosprey has been around with those bonuses for some time. That doesnt change the fact that is what it will primarily be used for because of those bonuses. In essence it will be just another rlml ship.

The caracal has been relegated to strictly an rlml boat. Doesnt have mids or fitting to brawl properly. The nosprey does though. The advantage of the nosprey is that it has a damage bonus instead of rof bonus like the caracal. This synergizes with rlml better.

If they took out the velocity bonus and put in an explosion radius bonus, this would enable HAM brawlers to be do able, or even HML to be viable.

That being said, you make a good point about the navy caracal, which is strangely absent from this change when its in worse shape than the nosprey. Id be ok making that into a missile brawler instead.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#472 - 2015-10-29 15:42:34 UTC
it's because rapids are op.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#473 - 2015-10-29 16:12:33 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
it's because rapids are op.


Rapids should get their fitting cost swapped with HAM's/Torps and that buffs the weak missiles and nerfs rapid fits at the same time. Torps would still need a big application buff, and HAM's would also need an application buff because they really don't work right on cruiser size hulls. Then we can have some tough choices, but right now Rapids are the only missiles that work properly on cruiser size hulls so everyone uses them instead
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#474 - 2015-10-29 16:23:56 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
it's because rapids are op.


Rapids should get their fitting cost swapped with HAM's/Torps and that buffs the weak missiles and nerfs rapid fits at the same time. Torps would still need a big application buff, and HAM's would also need an application buff because they really don't work right on cruiser size hulls. Then we can have some tough choices, but right now Rapids are the only missiles that work properly on cruiser size hulls so everyone uses them instead


I treat HAMs and torps like blasters. They work best inside web range.

As for rapid lights you can quite cheaply build an overheater tengu that does 1000dps, reps 240k effective hitpoints from a single XLASB etc etc etc.

Once I started using torps like the sledgehammers they are things began working out for me much better, crash in to scram range and engage.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#475 - 2015-10-29 16:42:07 UTC
Oh my, I had no idea that my precious Hookbill was in such a bad spot Sad

I was pinged on SiSi the other day for some frigate duels and I was flying the Hookbill for the first time in ages so I went for a shield buffer fit and tried both light missiles and rockets.

They both felt okay to me but when I heard armor Hookbill it makes my brain hurt - alot.

By the way, I am still waiting for the better heavy assault, heavy, cruise, citadel cruise missile and torpedo and citadel torpedo values you promised CCP.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#476 - 2015-10-29 22:11:25 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I will continue to say this again as many times as I need to until it gets acknowledged:

The Hookbill's problem is NOT dps. IT'S THE DAMN FITTING SPACE!

Compared to even other t1 frigs, it's subpar. I am going to lay this out for anyone who doesn't understand how BAD a problem this is.

1. The hookbill has an extra bonused weapon over its navy faction counterparts, as well as the highest number of mid slots (5) out of all the navy frigates. Despite this, it only has 5.5 more total cpu than the closest competitor, the Navy Comet, and less powergrid than ANY of the other 3, (50 pg each), wheres the Hookbill pushes barely over 46.

2. It cannot make use of all of its mid slots without investing heavily into CPU modules even IF you have top skills. God forbid you want to fit a tank on it; the 3rd missile launcher takes up much of the cpu needed for the mids (compare to the Firetail, which barely uses any cpu at all for autocannons), and you end up having to fit at least 1 power grid module or rig to fit JUST 3 rocket launchers, a mwd, and a medium shield extender. To start with, you HAVE to fit a power grid mod. Then you HAVE to fit a cpu mod if you want to make full use of your mids.

3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules.

4. You cannot, i repeat, CANNOT fit an effective light missile build without completely negating dps in favor of fitting modules. While capacitor remains an issue at any level, kiting builds tend to fill up their mid slots with such goodies as damps, tracking disruptors, and the occasional TP for a roaming gang. Generally it is to be expected that such fits on any frigate that aren't specialized for it will run out of capacitor fairly quickly, but it's particularly problematic for a combat frigate with 5 mid slots that can't really use them all that well to begin with.

5. With all this in mind, there are only two realistic options for a rebalance: Either drop a launcher and increase the bonus to 50% kinetic dmg and 40% dmg for em, therm, and explosive with a small increase in CPU, or retain your current idea but add a moderate to significant increase in powergrid and CPU. Either way it is absolutely necessary that the base PG and CPU get a bump.

And for anyone wondering, i am not just talking out my ass here. I've been in calmil on and off for years, and anyone who has talked to me for any length of time knows i am absolutely obsessed about fit crafting. I KNOW this ship, and i can tell you as much as i want to love it, it remains craptastic due to anemic fitting space. This NEEDS to change.


Thats what keeps it interesting though, hookbill will be very strong after the changes anyways, with endless fitting it would be op.

It's not endless fitting; just bringing it up to the fitting space of the others is what i want. As it stands, you really can't use light missiles on it, and it's obscene that you can't really fit a good build without any fitting mods or rigs.


Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that.

...you don't nerf something that's crippled to begin with to bring it up to normal. It's like saying that giving someone without legs a wheelchair means you need to take a wheel away from it for 'balance'. That makes NO sense.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#477 - 2015-10-29 22:21:50 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:



Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that.


What's your agenda? Clearly nothing to do with ship balance, or a fair lp store

Faction Frigates usage from z killboard

1. Navy Slicer: 41,281 destroyed = 412 281 000 lp
2. Fed Navy Comet: 39,150 destroyed = 391 500 000 lp
3. Fleet Firetail: 21,435 destroyed = 214 350 000 lp
4. Navy Hookbill: 11,337 destroyed = 113 370 000 lp


going from 6 to 6.75 turrets is not going to fix that.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6124854#post6124854

He's fine with the Fleet Vigil... "because lml kiting is in a really bad place"

Fleet Vigil Fittings: 38 PWG, 190 CPU Not OP according to him
Faster hull, 15m3 drone bay, 50% web bonus but still not OP according to W0lf

Hookbill fittings: 37PWG, 165CPU has to fit an extra launcher,an extra midslot, less low slots for fitting mods, slower hull, no drones, no web range bonus no application bonus... but this ship would be OP if it got a fittings buff.

Roll

*points and bounces up and down emphatically* "See? See?! He gets it! HE GETS IT!"
Idame Isqua
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2015-10-30 11:48:35 UTC
I agree with all this

First though Caldari faction ship needs a viable hull for fleets
Secondly it then needs a viable hull for 1v1s

The VNI aka low skill Ishtar, is light years ahead of the navy caracal anyone heard of it being used in a fleet?
I'm in calmil and I've never seen a fleet of them, they are rarely flown
And the navy exequror is far ahead of the no(nexistent)sprey
I see navy exes at least once a week, I've never ever ever seen someone fly a nosprey

I like some of the ideas put forward
Lets compare the VNI (sentries) with RLML... o wait no don't do that.
Ok lets compare HM/HAMS with... nah lets not they are only any use in the class above or against rats
medium size missiles need a boost/revamp

and the hookbill clearly the worst navy frigate, is pitted against the comet clearly the best.

My fitting examples where just lazy comparisons.
But I still believe they prove a valid point, the vexor is better at doing anything

But I believe they make clear what everyone knows

The NOSPREY buffs don't go far enough, taking it from never flown to flown for a laugh levels.

While the navy caracal is left being terrible and a worse choice than the t1 hull by a clear margin.

And the hookbill is being taken from never flown tier to maybe for a laugh tier, o wait every other ship in its class gets a buff, so it will still be terrible.

2s of researching kill boards and markets is all it takes to figure this out

woe and behold ships are balanced based on in game usages though

and remembering this all ties into galmil vs calmil in eves most active warzone
calmil has rubbish ships and therefore has rubbish LP conversion rates, therefore calmil LP has no demand, therefore none undocks to get it

These changes had potential to create some balance, but it seems clearly wasted already.

Quite a few people think caldari ships are a bit of a joke, but these new shield effects will look good albeit they seems targeted at the pve highsec crowd. Who clearly aren't losing many ships.

I would be interested if CCP realised information on how much each navy faction hull did in DPS and took, and if it was to/from other players or npcs.
Or even just who was doing the damage to shield, armour, and hulls in the cluster.
But everyone can just look at the kill boards/markets anyway.

Caldari, great for solo PvE...
I guess I can always ask myself... can bring my drake.
Madrax573
Doomheim
#479 - 2015-10-30 12:04:23 UTC
Just read the new Punisher stats.

Looks Like the AC punisher will make a return!!!

What with the extra low slot and 4 turrets oh yeah!
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#480 - 2015-10-30 21:44:10 UTC
Idame Isqua wrote:
I agree with all this

First though Caldari faction ship needs a viable hull for fleets
Secondly it then needs a viable hull for 1v1s



I'm always the first to speak up for Caldari but the Navy Osprey is really good after these changes Smile, still good for kiting maybe it could even scram kite if you want. It's got speed and agillity + decent dps + utillity highs + 6 mids for range control and/or tank. It's way better than you seem to think, clearly better than the t1 caracal, far superior to the the Navy Caracal, you couldn't ask for a better solo/small gang cruiser.

I agree with the rest, I don't know why nothing has been done with the Navy Caracal but I'm hoping it's because they plan to swap it for a Navy Moa with Optimal and dmg bonuses which would be your fleet doctrine. Then give Stabber Fleet Issue more pwg for 425mm autocannons and 1600 plate, change the 5% rof to 10% dmg for better dps/alpha and we have full line up of good Navy Cruisers. Some will be better or more useful than others but overall it would be balanced between the races: VNI way out front of course but somewhat balanced by the fact the Navy Exeq is limited. Caldari would have two very good cruisers, Nosprey for solo and small gang, Navy Moa for sniper doctinres. Minmattar would have the already good ScyFi, and the Stabber would be one of the best with 4k alpha and pretty fast lock time it would work be amazing alpha doctrine, or solo brawler with autocannons. Amarr already have two good navy cruisers.

To summarise for Navy cruisers what i'd like to see:

1) Navy Caracal changed for a Navy Moa

2) Stabber get enough PG so it can fit 1600plate with 425mm autocannons and prop mod for brawling, or arty fit for alpha gangs. Also change ROF bonus to 10% damage bonus in line with the excellent BC changes giving minnie a standout medium projectile Cruiser.

3) Either nerf VNI and buff Navy Exeq, or leave them as they are.



For frigates I would have taken the dps and selectable damage buff on the Hookbill as a step in the right direction, but that was before I seen the Navy Ewar frigs, and given the state of them bastards there's no way. Gallente will get two of the best by far, both the Navy Maulus and Comet outclass the Hookbill and Griffin by miles, while Amarr not only get what looks to me like the weakest of the lot in the shape of Navy Crucifier but the Slicer will also be supplanted by the Fleet Vigil as strong but affordable kiter.

Changes I'd like to see for faction frigs:

1) Navy Griffen and Navy Crucifer lose the -85% range gimp. It's ridiculous and unheard of, this is non-negotiable. If they're worried about these being annoying to fight they're absolutely right... but they'll definitely be less oppressive than a drone scram kiter with +50% range to scram, or a lml kiter that's just slightly slower than a Garmur, does 160dps cold, 20km defensive web, and an application bonus thrown in for good measure. If you're going to make two OP almost untouchable ships might as well let the other two use their ewar and be done with it. The Navy Griffin will basically use ecm to disengage from kiters making him an unattractive target, while the Navy Crucifer will be able to kite or force players into brawl range if he wants. Either get used to that or scrap the whole idea, do not gimp two races while the other two are allowed to ponce around in unfightable pwnships X

2) Make the EWAR frigs cost 30-40k lp so the standard Navy frigs are there as a cheap alternative. The idea that these can be mixed in with existing frigs when they have pirate ship bonuses like 50% web and scram range is crazy. This would also make them more attractive targets and less prone to abuse.

3) Navy Griffin and Navy Vigil lose ALL drones. Navy Crucifier +5 drone bandwidth +10 dronebay. Navy Maulus speed nerf please so it's not auto win or at worst never lose for anyone who knows what they're doing.

4) +2PG and +15CPU for Hookbill, +10% base speed. +10 drone bandwidth and dronebay for the Firetail

5) Comet lose it's spare drones. Already gets great dps from hybrids and solid tank too so at least give us a chance to kill off it's drone dps.



That would be balanced for me.