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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Paladin Genghis Khanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#401 - 2015-10-23 19:34:07 UTC
I keep hearing that the Punisher has tracking issues and can't hit frigates. I'm flying a Tormentor with pulse and it has no tracking bonus either. I do not use a stasis webifier. I have no issue landing hits unless I am zooming past a target at point blank range whose trajectory is parallel and opposite to mine. In those situations it's one or two misses before hit start to land hits again. This is the case even with the afterburner going with multifrequency at 2 to 3.6km range. Or even if I simply orbit instead of manual piloting.

Is there is different tracking calculation for PVP as opposed to PVE? Or are these comments in relation to beam turrets only?
Alek Row
Silent Step
#402 - 2015-10-23 19:38:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alek Row
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Excellent work on the frigates here; can't fault a single thing especially with the extra space for rifter and slasher.

Is this for real?
At the present you need 2 rigs to be able to fit 280mm, after the changes, you will need... 2 rigs.
Yes, it will be easier to fit a nos or a neut or to brick it, but not to have a good arty fit.
+3 is still better than +1 pg though: impossible to forget that awesome buff.

So so many iterations: +1 pg, speed buff, plate mass, small acs, tracking switched to falloff, and now +3pg. It is sad but oh well, maybe next time.

I don't like the idea of opening up a door by making the punisher having one more slot than all the rest, punisher needs help for sure, more than all others, but I really dislike the approach.

Also, breacher and tormentor do not need buffs.
To be honest I really can't agree with most of your ideas, but everybody is free to have them.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#403 - 2015-10-23 19:44:17 UTC
I think my favourite aspect of the proposed rifter and punisher balance changes is that the Punisher is now a more effective small artillery platform (4 turrets, loads of fitting space, can easily do an MWD/longpoint kiting fit) than the Rifter (hideous fitting issues and only 3.75 effective turrets).
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#404 - 2015-10-23 19:47:08 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:


First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch!


People using blasters/autos will just get under the pulse lasers in that situation.

Lloyd Roses wrote:

The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly.


If you're in falloff, which you will be most of the time, the rifter has a 50% falloff bonus. Even with guns two sizes smaller than the punisher the rifter outdamages the punisher starting at 5500m with short range ammo and 8500m with barrage.

Punisher's dps with short range ammo doesn't matter too much against frigates because if you're missing every shot your paper dps isn't going to matter.

Lloyd Roses wrote:

Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you.


A web equates to 120% better tracking, ignoring the extra effective tracking from relative speeds (which makes it WAY better than 120%).

To track a target well you can......

1. Slow the target down
2. Be faster or same speed as target
3. Increase the tracking of your guns

Relative speed to the target is extremely important. If you start off in a slow ship, with no web, and are then yourself webbed....having the worst tracking guns is a big issue.

Gatling pulse lasers, the smallest pulse laser, track worse than light neutron blasters and 200mm autocannons. That's how bad the tracking is. Scorch is the only real advantage pulse lasers have, and if a ship has no way to exploit it's superior range, and has the tracking achilles heel....why even use the ship or the weapons in the first place?

Balance is always an issue. Lasers having weaknesses give them flavor and help balance the game out, but the punisher is a case of the perfect storm of bullshit. For eons now it's been nothing more than a potential kill that just takes a greater expenditure of ammo to kill. It was my first ride and I have great memories of the early days, hunting big game in one.

Hell I even miss the garbage laser vengeance that made up for being trash with an overpowered nos and a 90% web.




Not if theyre fit with 10mn. Scram will stall out mwd fits and you can effectively scram kite. Making the lasers the best candidate. Beams also exist, and beam punisher will outdamage a rifter in pretty much any scenario. Even webbed, a 10mn punisher will go 800ish m/s. If you OH you will be as fast if not faster than most AB frigs, allowing range dictation w/o web.

The other thing you keep forgetting, is not every frigate wants to brawl you. Some want to kite. As ive mentioned previously the punisher (when not weighed down by a 400mm plate) is faster and more agile than a kite tristan. It also just happens to have the damage profile best suited at killing them too. Scram/mwd, pulse lasers and a nano should be more than enough to slingshot and murder a kite tristan.

So that is 2 fits that will work for the intended role. Want a brawler? 10mn beam or scorch pulse. Or anti-kiter with nano/mwd and pulses. Yes the anti kiter will die if tackled by a brawler, but this isnt limited to only the punisher. Any kiter will die when tackled. Same as the brawler, it might die to a kiter. Again this isnt limited to just a punisher. Thorax die to plenty of kiters. Same as incursus and plenty of other fits. You cannot have a one fit kills all, unless you are the favored gallente master race.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#405 - 2015-10-23 19:50:04 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:


First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch!


People using blasters/autos will just get under the pulse lasers in that situation.

Lloyd Roses wrote:

The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly.


If you're in falloff, which you will be most of the time, the rifter has a 50% falloff bonus. Even with guns two sizes smaller than the punisher the rifter outdamages the punisher starting at 5500m with short range ammo and 8500m with barrage.

Punisher's dps with short range ammo doesn't matter too much against frigates because if you're missing every shot your paper dps isn't going to matter.

Lloyd Roses wrote:

Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you.


A web equates to 120% better tracking, ignoring the extra effective tracking from relative speeds (which makes it WAY better than 120%).

To track a target well you can......

1. Slow the target down
2. Be faster or same speed as target
3. Increase the tracking of your guns

Relative speed to the target is extremely important. If you start off in a slow ship, with no web, and are then yourself webbed....having the worst tracking guns is a big issue.

Gatling pulse lasers, the smallest pulse laser, track worse than light neutron blasters and 200mm autocannons. That's how bad the tracking is. Scorch is the only real advantage pulse lasers have, and if a ship has no way to exploit it's superior range, and has the tracking achilles heel....why even use the ship or the weapons in the first place?

Balance is always an issue. Lasers having weaknesses give them flavor and help balance the game out, but the punisher is a case of the perfect storm of bullshit. For eons now it's been nothing more than a potential kill that just takes a greater expenditure of ammo to kill. It was my first ride and I have great memories of the early days, hunting big game in one.

Hell I even miss the garbage laser vengeance that made up for being trash with an overpowered nos and a 90% web.






Yeah, this.












Also, people i think look at the punisher the wrong way, its not a better tormentor, it is however a t1 slicer.


[Punisher, new]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Co-Processor II

5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II

Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S


Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I

1min 44 of cap i think (capstable without point), 160dps preheat at 19km (188 with heat), 3.49km/s preheat, 3.3 sec agility. Very low ehp but i think you can get a saar on for a nano if you wanted to (not to sure). Its not that great, but it is viable.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#406 - 2015-10-23 20:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

Also, people i think look at the punisher the wrong way, its not a better tormentor, it is however a t1 slicer.


[Punisher, new]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Co-Processor II

5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II

Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S


Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I

1min 44 of cap i think (capstable without point), 160dps preheat at 19km (188 with heat), 3.49km/s preheat, 3.3 sec agility. Very low ehp but i think you can get a saar on for a nano if you wanted to (not to sure). Its not that great, but it is viable.

how will you be doing 160 dps at the edge of your falloff? What? (optimal with x-rays is 15km) nope it 's 19, I'm just bad :P
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#407 - 2015-10-23 20:29:20 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Not if theyre fit with 10mn. Scram will stall out mwd fits and you can effectively scram kite. Making the lasers the best candidate. Beams also exist, and beam punisher will outdamage a rifter in pretty much any scenario. Even webbed, a 10mn punisher will go 800ish m/s. If you OH you will be as fast if not faster than most AB frigs, allowing range dictation w/o web.

The other thing you keep forgetting, is not every frigate wants to brawl you. Some want to kite. As ive mentioned previously the punisher (when not weighed down by a 400mm plate) is faster and more agile than a kite tristan. It also just happens to have the damage profile best suited at killing them too. Scram/mwd, pulse lasers and a nano should be more than enough to slingshot and murder a kite tristan.

So that is 2 fits that will work for the intended role. Want a brawler? 10mn beam or scorch pulse. Or anti-kiter with nano/mwd and pulses. Yes the anti kiter will die if tackled by a brawler, but this isnt limited to only the punisher. Any kiter will die when tackled. Same as the brawler, it might die to a kiter. Again this isnt limited to just a punisher. Thorax die to plenty of kiters. Same as incursus and plenty of other fits. You cannot have a one fit kills all, unless you are the favored gallente master race.


10mn punisher with battleship agility. 20-25 seconds to get up to that "800ish m/s" top speed, with no buffer. A target could get away simply by changing direction, and the punisher would straight up lose to just about anything if the punisher was using it's 10mn ab to just approach. Tormentor doesn't have this problem because it can just fit a web, so it's better at brawling.

Tormentor has the same agility and is only 2m/s slower than a similarly fit punisher, with the option of being injected and having a dual rep tank OR shield extender/ASB as well as having two drones. The better ship for catching kiters.

3.75 effective turrets + 2 drones > 4 effective turrets

extra mid > extra low

The tormentor is the better ship and these upcoming changes to the punisher won't change that.


Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#408 - 2015-10-23 20:47:25 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Not if theyre fit with 10mn. Scram will stall out mwd fits and you can effectively scram kite. Making the lasers the best candidate. Beams also exist, and beam punisher will outdamage a rifter in pretty much any scenario. Even webbed, a 10mn punisher will go 800ish m/s. If you OH you will be as fast if not faster than most AB frigs, allowing range dictation w/o web.

The other thing you keep forgetting, is not every frigate wants to brawl you. Some want to kite. As ive mentioned previously the punisher (when not weighed down by a 400mm plate) is faster and more agile than a kite tristan. It also just happens to have the damage profile best suited at killing them too. Scram/mwd, pulse lasers and a nano should be more than enough to slingshot and murder a kite tristan.

So that is 2 fits that will work for the intended role. Want a brawler? 10mn beam or scorch pulse. Or anti-kiter with nano/mwd and pulses. Yes the anti kiter will die if tackled by a brawler, but this isnt limited to only the punisher. Any kiter will die when tackled. Same as the brawler, it might die to a kiter. Again this isnt limited to just a punisher. Thorax die to plenty of kiters. Same as incursus and plenty of other fits. You cannot have a one fit kills all, unless you are the favored gallente master race.


10mn punisher with battleship agility. 20-25 seconds to get up to that "800ish m/s" top speed, with no buffer. A target could get away simply by changing direction, and the punisher would straight up lose to just about anything if the punisher was using it's 10mn ab to just approach. Tormentor doesn't have this problem because it can just fit a web, so it's better at brawling.

Tormentor has the same agility and is only 2m/s slower than a similarly fit punisher, with the option of being injected and having a dual rep tank OR shield extender/ASB as well as having two drones. The better ship for catching kiters.

3.75 effective turrets + 2 drones > 4 effective turrets

extra mid > extra low

The tormentor is the better ship and these upcoming changes to the punisher won't change that.




Actually 13s to get to 2.2k/s under no web. Far from BS agility. Torm doesnt have the tank. Punisher has a free eanm which will help reps land. Cap bonus will help too. Drones can be killed, then torm has less dps. Again, ive given 2 fits that will/have worked plus gang settings where it work. Just sounds like you want another 3 mid laser ship where one isnt needed.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#409 - 2015-10-23 21:51:09 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Actually 13s to get to 2.2k/s under no web. Far from BS agility.


16.8 seconds with just the AB fitted.

Looks like you're nanoing up your brawler and counting in skirmish links. Don't forget your nomad implants.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Torm doesnt have the tank. Punisher has a free eanm which will help reps land. Cap bonus will help too.


Tormentor has same shield, same armor, 60 something less hull. 20% resist bonus on armor for the punisher. If you aren't fitting a plate on any of your fits, that isn't much of a difference. Especially considering the tormentor can do a shield tank as well as the option on injector + dual rep.

The punisher has a marginal advantage in capacitor compared to the tormentor, but the tormentor has the same cap bonus and only 3 guns to feed. Plus that magical extra mid which can be an injector.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Drones can be killed, then torm has less dps.


Well if the enemy is taking time to shoot the tormentor's drones, that's pretty much the tormentor gaining tank. Also, tormentor is getting an extra flight of drones for it's dronebay.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Again, ive given 2 fits that will/have worked plus gang settings where it work.


And I'll say it again. The tormentor does everything the punisher does and does it better, with the exception of pure buffer. Oversize AB fits are a joke for solo because the agility is crap and it won't work for gang because you have no buffer so you'll die long before you get up to your top speed.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Just sounds like you want another 3 mid laser ship where one isnt needed.


I don't want the punisher to keep being a worse tormentor in practically every way. The proposed changes aren't going to make a difference.

If it were changed into a drone/rocket boat, at least it would be different and stand out from the current line up, instead of just being a bad tormentor.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#410 - 2015-10-23 22:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
They should just give the punisher a optimal bonus with its cap bonus and throw away the useless armor one, make it a even better t1 slicer with pulse lazors and dont force it into beams.
Nixon Bum
Doomheim
#411 - 2015-10-24 00:31:37 UTC
Nooooo leave drone boats alone, you maniac, leave them alone :'(
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#412 - 2015-10-24 03:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Templar Dane wrote:


16.8 seconds with just the AB fitted.

Looks like you're nanoing up your brawler and counting in skirmish links. Don't forget your nomad implants.


Plz. For such an expert amarr pilot you should know that oversized props need an agility mod somewhere. With nano, its 14.2s, so the fitting app on my phone was dated which was showing 13s. Still far less than BS agility and the over exaggerated 25s you're claiming.

And no, i don't use implants/links/alts when i solo PvP.

http://imgur.com/PFgccua

To answer something you mentioned about autocannons and rifters having better projection. Here is the 10mn punisher and a 200mm dual ambit rig rifter. Punisher beat its out at edge of scram range, which is all that matters really. Punisher has better tank, better dps, better range and still has range control if webbed. As its only 200m/s slower than non webbed rifter. Using OH will allow you to pull range and get hits in.

Yes if the rifter pilot also uses OH he can keep up, but this requires knowledge/skill/proper overview to pull off. So its not quite so one sided as a 1mn punisher vs a 1mn rifter.

Templar Dane wrote:


Tormentor has same shield, same armor, 60 something less hull. 20% resist bonus on armor for the punisher. If you aren't fitting a plate on any of your fits, that isn't much of a difference. Especially considering the tormentor can do a shield tank as well as the option on injector + dual rep.

The punisher has a marginal advantage in capacitor compared to the tormentor, but the tormentor has the same cap bonus and only 3 guns to feed. Plus that magical extra mid which can be an injector.


20% isnt a big difference? Ok. Its having a free resist mod, meaning its easier for me to use a nano on the 10mn fit. I don't need to use a nano plating, its built into the hull. Now with having a 5th low, i can now put in a nano plating for more tank, same speed/agility. Or use a cap relay if cap is a concern.

The punisher does better in armor gangs with logi than a shield tormentor gang with shield logi. Your point? The ships serve different roles/specialties. Punishers with logi will beat tormentors with logi. They function better in a gang format, and the tormentor is better as a solo/skirmish ship.

Templar Dane wrote:

And I'll say it again. The tormentor does everything the punisher does and does it better, with the exception of pure buffer. Oversize AB fits are a joke for solo because the agility is crap and it won't work for gang because you have no buffer so you'll die long before you get up to your top speed.


tormentor has considerably less PG. So buffer is one issue. But it can't use 10mn fits, which is debatable if thats a good or bad thing. However, you claiming oversized AB are a joke are sadly mistaken. When used properly with decent fits they work very well in a solo environment. Theres more to oversized fits than agility, and its the ability to get out of scram range and kill tackle easily. I've even used 100mn battlecruisers, which have killed linked worms, succubus, svipuls etc. I've used 10mn retributions to scram kite kestrels and other frigs with webs. I've even used 10mn punishers. There are downfalls to using it yes, but if you know what you're doing it can be managed.

Templar Dane wrote:

If it were changed into a drone/rocket boat, at least it would be different and stand out from the current line up, instead of just being a bad tormentor.


Then why don't you start saying that instead of persisting on the 2 mid syndrome. All i've seen is complaining about having 2 mids, and how it doesn't have range or range control.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#413 - 2015-10-24 04:59:48 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


16.8 seconds with just the AB fitted.

Looks like you're nanoing up your brawler and counting in skirmish links. Don't forget your nomad implants.


Plz. For such an expert amarr pilot you should know that oversized props need an agility mod somewhere. With nano, its 14.2s, so the fitting app on my phone was dated which was showing 13s. Still far less than BS agility and the over exaggerated 25s you're claiming.

And no, i don't use implants/links/alts when i solo PvP.

http://imgur.com/PFgccua

To answer something you mentioned about autocannons and rifters having better projection. Here is the 10mn punisher and a 200mm dual ambit rig rifter. Punisher beat its out at edge of scram range, which is all that matters really. Punisher has better tank, better dps, better range and still has range control if webbed. As its only 200m/s slower than non webbed rifter. Using OH will allow you to pull range and get hits in.

Yes if the rifter pilot also uses OH he can keep up, but this requires knowledge/skill/proper overview to pull off. So its not quite so one sided as a 1mn punisher vs a 1mn rifter.

Templar Dane wrote:


Tormentor has same shield, same armor, 60 something less hull. 20% resist bonus on armor for the punisher. If you aren't fitting a plate on any of your fits, that isn't much of a difference. Especially considering the tormentor can do a shield tank as well as the option on injector + dual rep.

The punisher has a marginal advantage in capacitor compared to the tormentor, but the tormentor has the same cap bonus and only 3 guns to feed. Plus that magical extra mid which can be an injector.


20% isnt a big difference? Ok. Its having a free resist mod, meaning its easier for me to use a nano on the 10mn fit. I don't need to use a nano plating, its built into the hull. Now with having a 5th low, i can now put in a nano plating for more tank, same speed/agility. Or use a cap relay if cap is a concern.

The punisher does better in armor gangs with logi than a shield tormentor gang with shield logi. Your point? The ships serve different roles/specialties. Punishers with logi will beat tormentors with logi. They function better in a gang format, and the tormentor is better as a solo/skirmish ship.

Templar Dane wrote:

And I'll say it again. The tormentor does everything the punisher does and does it better, with the exception of pure buffer. Oversize AB fits are a joke for solo because the agility is crap and it won't work for gang because you have no buffer so you'll die long before you get up to your top speed.


tormentor has considerably less PG. So buffer is one issue. But it can't use 10mn fits, which is debatable if thats a good or bad thing. However, you claiming oversized AB are a joke are sadly mistaken. When used properly with decent fits they work very well in a solo environment. Theres more to oversized fits than agility, and its the ability to get out of scram range and kill tackle easily. I've even used 100mn battlecruisers, which have killed linked worms, succubus, svipuls etc. I've used 10mn retributions to scram kite kestrels and other frigs with webs. I've even used 10mn punishers. There are downfalls to using it yes, but if you know what you're doing it can be managed.

Templar Dane wrote:

If it were changed into a drone/rocket boat, at least it would be different and stand out from the current line up, instead of just being a bad tormentor.


Then why don't you start saying that instead of persisting on the 2 mid syndrome. All i've seen is complaining about having 2 mids, and how it doesn't have range or range control.

Wading into the conversation here...

To be honest, i still think the problem comes down to the cap usage bonus. Damage projection aside, BOTH ships in this situation are literally throwing a combat bonus out the window just to use a weapon, and subsequently get their roles constricted. Ideally the Tormentor would have an optimal range bonus and the punisher would retain 3 guns and a damage bonus; the issue you two keep running up against each other with (from my perspective at least) is that you're arguing over which ship performs the same roles better, since they're both laser boats without too much to distinguish them from each other.

As a side note, I am on Vicoden and have been on it for awhile, so take any comments i make with a grain of salt. @_@
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#414 - 2015-10-24 05:05:10 UTC
Skyler Hawk wrote:
I think my favourite aspect of the proposed rifter and punisher balance changes is that the Punisher is now a more effective small artillery platform (4 turrets, loads of fitting space, can easily do an MWD/longpoint kiting fit) than the Rifter (hideous fitting issues and only 3.75 effective turrets).


arty frig with no web and no range control What?
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#415 - 2015-10-24 05:27:31 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
They should just give the punisher a optimal bonus with its cap bonus and throw away the useless armor one, make it a even better t1 slicer with pulse lazors and dont force it into beams.


This is what I tried to suggest earlier, for solo the punisher should be used to kite where it only needs two mid slots and the extra low can be used for a nano. But with an optimal bonus it's better than a slicer, that's how close to OP it is - and people are crying about it What?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#416 - 2015-10-24 06:10:01 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
I think my favourite aspect of the proposed rifter and punisher balance changes is that the Punisher is now a more effective small artillery platform (4 turrets, loads of fitting space, can easily do an MWD/longpoint kiting fit) than the Rifter (hideous fitting issues and only 3.75 effective turrets).


arty frig with no web and no range control What?


I may not often totally screw up kiting in a Rifter, but when I do i make sure I have Arty fit so my web can play a role.

/bloke with beer bottle

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#417 - 2015-10-24 06:34:55 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
I think my favourite aspect of the proposed rifter and punisher balance changes is that the Punisher is now a more effective small artillery platform (4 turrets, loads of fitting space, can easily do an MWD/longpoint kiting fit) than the Rifter (hideous fitting issues and only 3.75 effective turrets).


arty frig with no web and no range control What?


I may not often totally screw up kiting in a Rifter, but when I do i make sure I have Arty fit so my web can play a role.

/bloke with beer bottle


lol well i don't know much about kiting with arty tbh so i'm probably wrong but i thought web was kind of essential because it's terrible tracking makes it easy to get under the guns, and to help keep range. Especially on a punisher with no tracking bonus would it not be risky to just have long point and mwd?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#418 - 2015-10-24 09:52:30 UTC
But, but, how does a beam slicer work?

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#419 - 2015-10-24 11:13:03 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
/bloke with beer bottle


Figured you had to be a brit to be a bloke...
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#420 - 2015-10-24 12:01:26 UTC
So... basically the Punisher is an autocannon ship now...