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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#361 - 2015-10-22 19:09:44 UTC
What you need to make the barghest good is move 1 utlity slot of the 2 into a midslot, buff sensor strenght a bit (tbh all bs need that) and give it a little but more speed and agility.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#362 - 2015-10-22 19:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Templar Dane wrote:


Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader.

Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it.


Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close.

You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story.

Templar Dane wrote:


Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking.

There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them.


Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB.

You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank.

This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#363 - 2015-10-22 20:44:39 UTC
Holy bajeebus this years flue seems to of a nasty straign. So besides the admirable effords of the pharma industry to brute force some flue shots into you fever wasn't of the table this year.

Note to self, don't take cough medicine and fever medicine together..

Moving on, mixing drugs seems to have funny side effects. I was just catching up and did read that CCP is going to break their own desing goals right after reaching them for the very frist time.

Must have been the fever causing all kinds of misunderstandings. Someone clear this up real quick. Did I really just read that the new design goal of ship progression is now

tech one > tech one >>>>>>>> faction >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aww pirate.

Wasn't that somewhat different?

Oh by the way and while we are at it, can we nerf light guns too? We must end this constant domination of light weapon. I would assume a light reduction of 99.9995% all small railguns, blasters, pulse lasers, beam lasers, autocannons and artillery damage will balance the game.
Since it is just a small step all weapon system should be balanced now and we can call it a day.

If that doesn't bring balance, let's just remove some more random slots from all ships so that the kids don't need to think about what to put into them.
One slot per ship should be okay, so that the ever increasing number of daft folks have it easer.

Cancer seems to be the word of 2015. Very popular forms of cancer have been known to cause brain damage. People with brain damage are advised to remove themself from the discussion.

Someone explain to me why the Sacrilege needs a bigger dronebay instead of a bigger damage bonus for the lack slot to put a ballistic control in?

The Punisher is now punished enough. There is no reason to punish the Punisher even more for being bad. How about a tracking bonus?

And how about nerfing pirate faction ships below tech one? Sounds like an almost good idea.

Combined with the large missile nerf of the century, the total domination of citadel torpedos has come to an end. Now all the kids in lowsec can undock once again and not fear the sight of a caldari titan.

It was too long that the one Leviathan in New Eden was constantly disbanding goonswarm, the drone regions, delve and killing all tech-moon pos's for keeping the moon-poo prices uber-high with no end.

This is no rant, it is an observation. You can rent my observations for 3 billion isk per hour.

A toast (and the last of my cough medicine for today) to yet another fail attempt of balance brought to you by phar- erm CCP frigate online.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#364 - 2015-10-22 20:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The nag is shield tanked because its a dread and is a dps role. Its goal is to apply maximum damage when on field. Who cares about its tank. Moros is often armor tanked and is just as popular.


It's rather that capital shield repairer are a lot more efficient compared to armor ones. Even an Archon, given you want a set amount of cap recharge, tanks better when shieldtanked compared to common armor setup (2 CAR+EANM). If it's supposed to receive reps, armor gangs are usually better - but for local tanked caps, it's all about shields.

Active tanked Dreadnoughts (in wormhole space) usually just need to sustain their active tank to the end of the next siege cycle, less than 5 minutes, so going with semiconductors and power diags in the lows together with a full shieldtank, yielding some 30k+ ehp/s with a 5 slot tank+DCU compared to the 16k you'd squeeze out of a dualrep armorfit.

Armortanked moros (and nags) for low/null don't have an armor repairer, just two trimarks and resists. If they catch fire, they refit bulkheads and delay their death - especially since armor reps would be insignificant (around 6k before refitting). They save mids for cap boosters, sebos and TCs and unlike 'survive or die' for wormhole caps, it's about the get in, blow load, regain jump cap and extract approach.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#365 - 2015-10-22 21:37:21 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader.

Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it.


Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close.

You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story.

Templar Dane wrote:


Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking.

There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them.


Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB.

You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank.

This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors


I was soloing battlecruisers in a punisher in '06 and am not hiding behind an alt. In the top 200 according to battleclinic, and am an amarr specialist.

You aren't going to sig tank a tracking bonused destroyer with battleship agility. Range tank, sure, as I said earlier but that isn't 'sig tanking'.
Arla Sarain
#366 - 2015-10-22 21:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Ares Desideratus wrote:

Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB.


Is the 10MN AB Coercer orbiting at 4000? Cos that's what it's going to take to reduce the statistical chance to hit down to 50% with scorch loaded DLPs.

You are talking about range tanking. A Coercer's base signature alone is practically a free 50% tracking bonus to small guns.

Don't need EFT for this.

DLPs with scorch on a Coercer have 0.38 rad/s tracking. Against a base 62m sig that's almost ~0.6rad/s. Assuming you can turn perfectly (you can't, 10MN AB especially), you'd have to be orbiting at 3400m on an overheated AB to even try to sigtank.

Pick a range you say you "sig tank" at and repost.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#367 - 2015-10-22 23:17:33 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:

Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB.


Is the 10MN AB Coercer orbiting at 4000? Cos that's what it's going to take to reduce the statistical chance to hit down to 50% with scorch loaded DLPs.

I specifically wrote a 10mn AB Coercer versus a SFPL Coercer.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#368 - 2015-10-22 23:19:50 UTC
And that isn't even a favourable matchup. Other destroyers, like cormorant or thrasher, have much worse tracking if they want to hit you at 20km, because they have to use arties or rails.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#369 - 2015-10-22 23:41:02 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Seriously? How does having a full drone bay stop the crucifier from being an ewar frigate?

how does giving it a full drone bay make it a combat frigate?

Are you using your brain? The Arbitrator must be a combat cruiser then, because it has a full drone bay and a damage bonus :(

The crucifier is an "electronic warfare" frigate, which, believe it or not, is meant for combat. If it had a full drone bay it would actually be usable for legitimate combat, but right now it's really only good for ewar because it doesn't pose much of a threat to anyone, even other frigates.

SO much wrong with this post.

Really? i had no idea the ewar frigates were meant for combat. what universe of eve are we playing in?

'right now its(crucifier) only good for ewar because it doesnt pose much of a threat to anyone'

Wow you just next leveled me? here i was thinking that ewar frigates and to some extent cruisers were top of the line solo 1v1 wtfbbq eveiseasy most used ships in game for combat. glad you helped me out.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Arla Sarain
#370 - 2015-10-22 23:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:

Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB.


Is the 10MN AB Coercer orbiting at 4000? Cos that's what it's going to take to reduce the statistical chance to hit down to 50% with scorch loaded DLPs.

I specifically wrote a 10mn AB Coercer versus a SFPL Coercer.

So, big difference...?
0.34 rad/s at maximum skills. Even if the Coercer had 40m sig, it would have to orbit at 6000m. With a 10MN AB - not going to happen. Also you are not gaining much from using DLPs over him. You miss about as many shots, for all practical intents, you lose in range. Whilst the absolute loss in range is small, the risk is sliding into your own falloff sooner than he does. You'd screw your own DPS easier than he would considering how punishing falloff is to lasers.

Hell, at 9.5km, his chance to hit you with your 62m sig is still 90%. There is like a good 5km window where he can deal full DPS no matter what you do and that is still assuming you lose no speed with the crap agility you get.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#371 - 2015-10-23 00:35:14 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:

SO much wrong with this post.

Really? i had no idea the ewar frigates were meant for combat. what universe of eve are we playing in?

'right now its(crucifier) only good for ewar because it doesnt pose much of a threat to anyone'

Wow you just next leveled me? here i was thinking that ewar frigates and to some extent cruisers were top of the line solo 1v1 wtfbbq eveiseasy most used ships in game for combat. glad you helped me out.

It says it right in the name, electronic WARFARE, and most of them literally get combat related bonuses, like the arbitrator. If the arbitrator could only use 3 medium drones and had no damage bonus it would be where the crucifier is now, useless except for tracking disruptor. But the arbitrator is a good versatile ship for pvp and the crucifier could be too if it had a legitimate drone bay.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#372 - 2015-10-23 01:40:24 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:

SO much wrong with this post.

Really? i had no idea the ewar frigates were meant for combat. what universe of eve are we playing in?

'right now its(crucifier) only good for ewar because it doesnt pose much of a threat to anyone'

Wow you just next leveled me? here i was thinking that ewar frigates and to some extent cruisers were top of the line solo 1v1 wtfbbq eveiseasy most used ships in game for combat. glad you helped me out.

It says it right in the name, electronic WARFARE, and most of them literally get combat related bonuses, like the arbitrator. If the arbitrator could only use 3 medium drones and had no damage bonus it would be where the crucifier is now, useless except for tracking disruptor. But the arbitrator is a good versatile ship for pvp and the crucifier could be too if it had a legitimate drone bay.


The tristan is a big enough problem, the last thing we need is another 25m3 bandwidth frigate with a better slot layout running around.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#373 - 2015-10-23 02:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader.

Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it.


Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close.

You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story.

Templar Dane wrote:


Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking.

There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them.


Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB.

You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank.

This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors




The thing with all the 10mn vs mwd thing is that if the other person turns of his mwd he has the same sig, same transversal, same range but just better fitting and ehp. So unless you fly in such a way that you exploit your smaller guns tracking (which is pretty much impossible for a coercer) the non 10mn fit simply is better. 10mn coercers strenght is not really its sig.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#374 - 2015-10-23 02:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Templar Dane wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader.

Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it.


Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close.

You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story.

Templar Dane wrote:


Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking.

There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them.


Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB.

You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank.

This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors


I was soloing battlecruisers in a punisher in '06 and am not hiding behind an alt. In the top 200 according to battleclinic, and am an amarr specialist.

You aren't going to sig tank a tracking bonused destroyer with battleship agility. Range tank, sure, as I said earlier but that isn't 'sig tanking'.



WOW, you are top 200 on BATTLECLINIC. Thats, ohmygod, can i have your autograph plzz xd xd, and you soooloed battecruisers in punishers in 06, my god that changes everything!!!!





Seriously though, bc ranks mean nothing at all, most times the higher ups are actually really bad at pvp and really good at flying lame stuff with implants and links. Stuff like "oh my god im so high on [insert killboard here]" just makes you look like a joke.






You are correct though.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#375 - 2015-10-23 02:45:44 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader.

Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it.


Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close.

You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story.

Templar Dane wrote:


Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking.

There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them.


Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB.

You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank.

This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors


I was soloing battlecruisers in a punisher in '06 and am not hiding behind an alt. In the top 200 according to battleclinic, and am an amarr specialist.

You aren't going to sig tank a tracking bonused destroyer with battleship agility. Range tank, sure, as I said earlier but that isn't 'sig tanking'.



WOW, you are top 200 on BATTLECLINIC. Thats, ohmygod, can i have your autograph plzz xd xd, and you soooloed battecruisers in punishers in 06, my god that changes everything!!!!





Seriously though, bc ranks mean nothing at all, most times the higher ups are actually really bad at pvp and really good at flying lame stuff with implants and links. Stuff like "oh my god im so high on [insert killboard here]" just makes you look like a joke.






You are correct though.



Better than the other killboards, where whoring on mails gives you just as many points. At least battleclinic rewards you for shipping down and soloing.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#376 - 2015-10-23 03:05:28 UTC
What i find most amusing is that everyone is arguing about whether the Punisher will do better with ACs or Arty.

Two thumbs up on the balance pass, Fozzie. You're doing great work.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Renfus
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#377 - 2015-10-23 06:01:56 UTC
LOVE the changes!!
Maybe give deep space transport haulers like the bustard immunity to warp disruption fields like interceptors have..
That way one is cov ops/ cloaks and the other a little easier to get through bubbled gates..
Granted a fast point should still be able to tag it..

Also
Maybe someone can give the Osprey a facelift one day..
That's easily the ugliest and awkward looking ship in the game..
Ospreys in real life which the ship is named after are big raptors.. pretty badass birds..
The osprey in game should have been named emu instead.. lol

((( Alliance Creation ))) Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++ Contact me In-Game.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#378 - 2015-10-23 07:19:50 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
What i find most amusing is that everyone is arguing about whether the Punisher will do better with ACs or Arty.

Two thumbs up on the balance pass, Fozzie. You're doing great work.


Agreed these are good changes, even if some don't go far enough they are all a step in the right direction.

The rifter/slasher changes are enough because i think the remaining problems are in the projectiles themselves, specifically the lack of good t2 ammo, not much wrong with the hulls or even the turrets - which are actually good with faction ammo. So over buffing these ships would just make it harder for them to buff small projectile ammo later if they decide to do that.

As for the punisher, it got some nice treatment and I like the flexible 5 low slot layout I wouldn't swap it for a rocket ship with 1 less slot, it probably wouldn't even be as good as the breacher so i wouldn't use it anyway. With lasers it has no webs and no range control so i feel like a tracking bonus is pretty much essential to make it viable for solo, but the slot layout should make for some interesting fits.

The Navy Osprey will be awesome, good in multiple roles, good with rlml and hams.

I feel like the hookbill still lacks fitting resources which locks it into just a few very similar very limited squishy fits that makes it predictable and soft - we'll see how these changes go down, the small dps buff and better selectable damage is welcome but I think it needs a boost to cpu especially now the fleet vigil is coming out and looks so much stronger, and the rail comet is already stronger even at the edge of scram range with better tank/dps.

The cancer nerfs are all welcome too but disappointed the Mordu's legion ships still have so many effective bonuses on their hulls. I see the scram/disruptor bonuses as effectively two separate bonuses, the missile speed and range bonus is effectively two bonuses as well.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#379 - 2015-10-23 12:49:20 UTC
yeah because what the game needs is more fast rlml ships right
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#380 - 2015-10-23 12:49:38 UTC
perhaps consider reducing the orthrus's shield HP, its tankier than the caracal navy and osprey navy issue, there needs too be more differences between them as they all fill similar roles, also consider removing missile range bonuses from light missiles for the orthrus.

Amissile rebalance is much needed here, missile tracking is poor and the new mods along with current ship bonuses aren't sufficient, and light missile track too well leaving RLML's as the main used thing, maybe if HAM's exchange range for tracking they might find more usage along with tracking nerf too light's.

orthrus
- nerf shield HP too 2400 (slightly better than cynabal)
- missile range bonuses only apply too HAM's and heavies

Osprey Navy Issue
- make it a hybrid boat, there are no caldari navy hybrid ships atm until GNI comes out.
- maybe like a navy version of a moa or a falloff blaster boat perhaps.

Caracal Navy issue
- could use stronger bonuses too be competitive

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using