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I find it amusing the goon says you dont need tackle in a fleet. So i guess you guys never had lachs, arazu's or ceptors in your fleets? I find that hard to imagine. Because you know... dictors are never primaried or anything. Never heard the term "spread points" when the enemy fleet gets themselves in a poor position? Whos doing the pointing? Oh i see, you contradicted yourself in the first paragraph. So.. if you have dedicated people like tanky T3s and recons pointing for you, why do you need more mids on an armor ship?

In the armor fleets ive been in, some people had points, others had ewar, and then we also had dedicated tackle ships. So yes, tackle exists in fleets, even you agree, after you disagreed.

Armor fits are perfectly viable. Even in solo pvp. Ive used plated canes, harbs, phoons and other ships before that worked well. For BS, armor fits are great, especially when you have an MJD. Fitting an MJD+prop on a shield fit is a pain.

I believe you only speak for yourself about solo pvp. Ive used armor fits just as much as ive used shield fits. Or ive used hull tanks (best of both). Armor frees up mids, great for squeezing in web/scram/prop/MJD in my 4 mid harb/cane. Range/speed is not key. Application/survivability is key. People just dont know how to think for themselves and think they need to join the kitey meta and ignore what armor fits provide.

The muninn existed as an alpha doctrine and was normally shield fit (this due mainly to PG restraints of arty and it not having any damage in armor fit since it had to fit all tank to fill in resist holes). The zealot was used for its low sig and good range. Not to mention it countered drake blobs well with an AB and high resists. A shield gun ship did exist, the ferox.

Yet Slicer is legitimately one of the best frigates in the game period.

10mn Coercer beats any other turret destroyer because of sig tank and the combined tracking and range of scorch.

Punisher is bad because of overall poor ship design, not because it only has two mid slots.

You're better off talking about your rusty ships, the Punisher's only fault is its lack of tracking.
It is cap stable with active rep and a nos
It is cap stable with a neut and a passive tank
It's slow, but tanky.
Lacks Tracking, that's it.
A 3rd midslot always helps though.

Actually, any frigate can do rep + nos and neut + guns, without the drawbacks of being slow and mid-gimped.

Well 8 if you want to include the catalyst and eris too.

Punisher will do more dps and tank better than a kite tristan. Currently the punisher/tristan base speed is roughly 100m/s different when fit with MWD. After these changes the tristan will be slower, the punisher will have an extra low free to use with a nano, more tank or gank. The punisher has better base agility as well. So.. if you have a clue on how to fight a kitey opponent, it should not be hard to slingshot a tristan. Where then the higher dmg/tank comes into play.

If your whole gang is made up of punishers.. then i guess they could shoot your logi. The argument can be made to have a better logi chain or fit. Or upgrade to aug/exeq. Logi getting blapped is viable in any situation, not just your punisher with 2 mids scenario. Ive yet to come across a tristan gang with logi yet.. but have dealt with punisher/ret/wolf gangs with logi.

Ive flown a 10mn Ab beam punisher (and ret) and worked fairly well. This extra low might be enough make it even more viable. Sometimes you have to think outside the box for solo work. Slapping on a plate and ab and saying i have no range or range control makes you think the ship is inflexible..

Slicer is great for target selection because you can avoid fighting pretty much anything. You're right it's a one trick pony but it is still easily one of the best frigates in the game like I said. There's no way around it. No other frigate can do what the Slicer does, it has the speed of an interceptor and the projection of a sniper Confessor.

Your destroyer comment just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about here. 10mn Coercer has a 60m sig, with scorch you hit out to 20km. I've beaten so many other turret destroyers in it, even though they had far greater paper tank and dps, simply because they can't track nearly as well as Coercer can at 15km or so, without the 10mn AB this would not be possible.

Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader.

Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it.



Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking.

There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them.

You said "any" frigate can do rep+nos. That would imply you meant any frigate. Not just ones with 2 mids or without utility highs.

Stop moving the goal posts, or reread what you type to make sure it means what you want it to.

The point is that when other people are tackling for you, you use your mids on a shield tank so you can fill your lows with damage mods. I mean, obviously you don't shield tank a 7/3 slot layout ship. That's stupid. You pick shield whenever you have a choice.

There's a reason 99% of Ishtars shield tanked when it had the 5/5 slot layout. Armor is bad if you have a choice. The Jaguar and Svipul are both 4/4 and have no specific shield or armor bonuses. They're shield tanked 99%+ of the time. How often do people armor tank Tempests or Naglfars?



Of course armor fits are viable. There are lots of types of ship that are only available in armor, you don't have the choice to shield tank. The point is that all else being equal, shield is simply better than armor. Every armor tanked ship in the game would be improved if their low and midslot counts were swapped. Again, the only real exception would be battleships against bombers.

Different guy, same moot point.

No utility high on upcoming punisher.