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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave Stark
#1861 - 2015-10-16 15:38:40 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?

You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment.


what issue will a 300m sp character pose? and what should be done to prevent anyone ever owning a 300m sp character?

how will a character with 300m sp be an issue such that this idea should never happen?

300m sp characters will, at some point, happen. why should that point never come to pass?
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#1862 - 2015-10-16 15:39:24 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:


Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.

And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.


How many 1 week old players can realistically afford that, and how many of those would actually do it even if they could afford it?

Where would the money go from all the plexes they buy?

Why should I care if a handfull of nubs are derping around in purple fit capitals?


Not many could afford to do it, not many would do it, the money goes to ccp to pay for the upkeep of the game, and I'd like to see those killmails start appearing.


You dont seem to be a person who knows the lenghts nerdy gamers who dont leave home and earn a lot doing IT stuff are capable of doing with money they dont spend on weekends at the beach ... do you ?

Your killmails will stop the moment people like me have the oportunity to amass 20 ships with full skill to face anything you bring. You will see the game soon disfavor you when people with skill and no clue start receiving buffs and skilled people start to being nerfet until flatline gaming removes ingame skill and IRL skill to a narrow level.

That is simple causality. Once you have no more limits to content people can jump into without learning, you have to flatline everyone to cookie cutter. That is essentially how WoW, GW and most NCSoft games are the way they are today.


good. I'm sure ccp will put their money to good use, and it's not like in WoW where you buy the diamond sword and you can cut everyone in half... if a noob gets in titan on day 1 he'll lose it on day 1. His money, his choice... not seeing any downsides for me or the rest of the sane people playing eve.
Dave Stark
#1863 - 2015-10-16 15:39:39 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
try reading the devblog.

it clearly states it favours younger players.


never said it didn't.

i pointed out the fact, as stated by the devblog, that this suggestion is aimed at everyone; not new just new players. i know reading is hard, but try it. please.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1864 - 2015-10-16 15:39:44 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
you know ccp looking at this thread and thinking about the vets saying we can just rinse our alts of sp and apply to our main, CCP: "yes this is working they are all talking about rinsing alts, they have to buy aurum to do that, op success"


I'm not a 'CCP is grabbing money' conspiracy theorist.

At least I wasn't till yesterday Sad
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#1865 - 2015-10-16 15:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Talsha Talamar
Sibyyl wrote:

People can use the character bazaar today. Your argument is invalid.


It has been pointed out several times in this thread
that the character bazaar is not the same as the proposed system for trading skill points.

Your argument is actually the invalid one since it assumes an identity of terms, where it is not given.

Just a few points to show some differences between the bazaar and the proposed skill training.

a) Degree and Cost of Customization
-> The characters sold in the Character Bazaar come as they are.
Some might have been trained up perfectly, some have grown more organically.
Training those individual characters up took the same time to train up every other character with the same SP and attributes.
They come as a package of millions of SP.
They took as long to train up as any other character with comparable SP.
They are expensive.

-> Skill Trading would allow to micro-customize any character new or existing.
It would even allow to micro-customize on the fly during operations.
Skill Trading would allow to train new characters up in minutes.
The costs of micro customizing would be below those of buying a complete character.


b) History of Characters - Intelligence & Consequences
-> Characters on the bazaar have a history that reflects their identity in game.
The older a character is, the more history it likely has.
Looking at corp history, eve-search, killboards, age, sec status ... are important tools ingame to evaluate another character.

-> Skill Trading would allow to create high-sp characters that have a virgin history.

c) Availability of Characters
-> The amount characters for sale on the Bazaar is limited by the number of characters trained.
-> Skill Trading would create an unlimited amount of supply of characters with any skillset.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1866 - 2015-10-16 15:40:57 UTC

Laodell wrote:
The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.


And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1867 - 2015-10-16 15:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Sibyyl wrote:
Jenn, explain to me very specifically how this mechanic adds a pay to win vector that buying a perfect Svipul pilot from Character Bazaar doesn't already offer.

Edit: Where did you get that it's less than Character Bazaar?



When you do that you buy an existing character with a character age (probably relative to its SP count), a character history, skill point allocation and a name. THAT CHARACTER is perfectly in line with the normal rules of the sandbox regardless of its actual owner. This new idea does NOT follow the normal character progression rules.

I'm sure you weren't happy when the Ishukone Scorpions were introduced because they completely circumvented the normal sandbox rules. This is similar. I'm sure you can understand the difference but as per Malcanis' bio it's VERY difficult to make people understand something if they feel it's in their best interest to not understand it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1868 - 2015-10-16 15:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dave Stark wrote:
what? i haven't moved anything dude - you've still yet to state a single issue this will cause. other than the aforementioned "you can get more sp than your char age allows" stuff.
…except for the time when you moved them from the actual issue to a completely different one once you figured that you couldn't respond to the issue as stated. You know, like you did just now — again — when you invented some idiotic nonsense about character age that is entirely your argument, not mine, and that has nothing to do with the issue I have repeated explained to you, and which as a bonus is the exact opposite of what I have said as I have pointed out on multiple occasions.

Quote:
you could... you know, just point out an issue.
You could, you know, learn to read.

Quote:
tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar.
…except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition — or indeed any mechancis — bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.

Quote:
given the ample opportunity provided to provide any kind issue this would cause
…I have done so at every occasion, and you have been so wound up in your fantastical hallucination of a strawman that you fail to see it every time. It's becoming borderline pathetic at this point that you so adamantly refuse to actually acknowledge and address my point and instead keep harping on about your personal nonsensical “muh SP” whinging.

And yes, it is yours — not mine. You are the one who keeps using it as an argument, not me.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1869 - 2015-10-16 15:42:20 UTC
Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".

Please add your pros and cons to the list below:

pros:

  • pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
  • reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
  • boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups


cons:

  • T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
  • Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
  • Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.


Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1870 - 2015-10-16 15:43:55 UTC
Again, one thing:

It is presently impossible for me to go to the bazaar and buy a couple cruiser pilots and make myself a capital superhuman by just mixing them up.

If I can buy a skill pill from each, then I can.

It is presently impossible for me to make my alts benefit my main in any way skill wise.

If I can buy a skill "pill maker", I can shave off all the skill points my alts have that I dont need as they are already skilled to their task, and make a 3, 10, 100 fold skill queue, effectivelly using the alts to bundle skill training of my main to unbelievable speed.

If you read the dev blog, you will see that diminishing returns put stress on newly created doners, not old doners. So that impact makes effectively doning skills a burden on newer players which will depend on veterans to do it.

That rises yet another issue: The first to use it will be alt holders, as they will benefit themselves first, then themselves again making a money making biz.

So, to sum it up, first it benefits the already powerful people in making their alts produce proverbial skill juice. Then it benefits already powerful people who has skillpoints to sell, then it benefits medium skilled people which will be first market. Then it benefits high paying new people, which can afford the starting market. Then, after a while, when the game is already flooded with the power of the powerful drawn from exploiting it to oblivion, some new player may be benefited.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#1871 - 2015-10-16 15:44:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
nice list of buzzwords. now, what will happen in-game because of this change that isn't already happening? as yet you've listed nothing.

It will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it.

This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design — it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.

In other words: try reading. The answer will not change and, more importantly, will not go away just because you refuse to acknowledge it for some absurd reason.


You talk about bypassing mechanics but I think you ignore the difference between bypassing mechanics and mechanics evolving. warp to zero, scan changes, hell the addition of autopilot all "bypassed" the mechanics of the day, and you know what, they were all for the better.

I agree that cost restriction being a method of balance is bad, after all its this which lead to the Titan/Super bloat we currently have. EvE players are gluten for punishment and will always brute force their way to something they want if they have to. That being said, skill points can already be brute forced by character trading (And no, that's not different except cosmetically. After all do you really care if my latest ship that killed you was piloted by my main or my 15th alt?)

My only big concern here is adding more pressure to an already inflated PLEX market. Ideally it would be nice if PLEX and AUR were decoupled. Plex for game time and services, and AUR for cosmetic and these new skill items.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#1872 - 2015-10-16 15:44:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players.



except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that.

not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time.


"0 – 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added
5 – 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added
50 – 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added
> 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. We’ve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."

Now younger characters does not necessarily always mean new players, but you have to pretty damned obtuse to not see it is at least biased towards benefiting new players, both in their mentioning of them and in the skill point distribution.
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#1873 - 2015-10-16 15:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Talsha Talamar
Oops
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1874 - 2015-10-16 15:46:11 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.

Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?



Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too.

CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate.

Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar).

EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts.


Jenn, explain to me very specifically how this mechanic adds a pay to win vector that buying a perfect Svipul pilot from Character Bazaar doesn't already offer.

Edit: Where did you get that it's less than Character Bazaar?


It works by offering a heretofore never before seen way to modify EXISTING characters. With the CB, you have to take a number of hits (open character slots, cash or 2 plexes to use, stuck with a dumb name etc). The proposed system takes away everything that makes the CB acceptable to those of us who actually like the existing nature of EVE online (where for the most part nothing is quick, and everything has to be earned).

Hard to believe that you are in love with a bad idea because it will let you bypass some of those things.

And of course it will be less than the CB, Have you never used it before? Buying a character ain't cheap. If it cost more to sculpt than to buy a character, no one would use it (and it would fail your 'accessibility' test, now wouldn't it).

I say again, you're one of the smarter posters here. Ask yourself why people you normally agree with are so against it and you will start to understand.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1875 - 2015-10-16 15:46:29 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?

You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment.


what issue will a 300m sp character pose? and what should be done to prevent anyone ever owning a 300m sp character?

how will a character with 300m sp be an issue such that this idea should never happen?

300m sp characters will, at some point, happen. why should that point never come to pass?


Again you are changing the subject. Why not answer my question? Ah because then you would have to admit you are wrong...

Game mechanics does not give you possibility to own 300 mils sp char at the moment. After this changes you will be able to have it ahead of the time regularly needed for it. It will cost but you will be able to have it. And that means that game mechanics will be changed.

But please, keep repeating it will not, and keep your argument lacking posting, I am actually enjoying how you make yourself look like a clown :D And hopefully CCP will read this topic and after they see what people who support this idea think and say they will find out how ******** it is :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#1876 - 2015-10-16 15:46:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition — or indeed any mechancis — bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.


this new proposal doesn't change the SP acquisition rate either. therefore the only issue remaining is that the total SP on a character is greater than the theoretical total. which causes exactly what issues?
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1877 - 2015-10-16 15:46:49 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
try reading the devblog.

it clearly states it favours younger players.


never said it didn't.

i pointed out the fact, as stated by the devblog, that this suggestion is aimed at everyone; not new just new players. i know reading is hard, but try it. please.


eve online is running since what 2003? 13 years... 13 years is a looooong time: you can marry and get kids, you can change your living place/home/country, you can change your job, you can change your wife, etc, but you can never be able to change your eve skills!
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1878 - 2015-10-16 15:48:41 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:


Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.

And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.


How many 1 week old players can realistically afford that, and how many of those would actually do it even if they could afford it?

Where would the money go from all the plexes they buy?

Why should I care if a handfull of nubs are derping around in purple fit capitals?


Not many could afford to do it, not many would do it, the money goes to ccp to pay for the upkeep of the game, and I'd like to see those killmails start appearing.


You dont seem to be a person who knows the lenghts nerdy gamers who dont leave home and earn a lot doing IT stuff are capable of doing with money they dont spend on weekends at the beach ... do you ?

Your killmails will stop the moment people like me have the oportunity to amass 20 ships with full skill to face anything you bring. You will see the game soon disfavor you when people with skill and no clue start receiving buffs and skilled people start to being nerfet until flatline gaming removes ingame skill and IRL skill to a narrow level.

That is simple causality. Once you have no more limits to content people can jump into without learning, you have to flatline everyone to cookie cutter. That is essentially how WoW, GW and most NCSoft games are the way they are today.


good. I'm sure ccp will put their money to good use, and it's not like in WoW where you buy the diamond sword and you can cut everyone in half... if a noob gets in titan on day 1 he'll lose it on day 1. His money, his choice... not seeing any downsides for me or the rest of the sane people playing eve.


Yes, because no one will be buying ganking alts to gang **** veterans and start the noobpower movement.

If people when offered started pissing long time players off in "Habbo Hotel" just as they could clog doors with bought chars that were oversized, what you think lolers will do with eve when you can buy pilots to instakill trillion ISK ships by just 20 USD ?

The impression of exceptionalism from some peoples in this World is astonishing. They will believe they are on top of a pedestal until any given troller who doesnt even know what is their char race name are piloting ships that can kills you with no skill required whatsoever.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Dave Stark
#1879 - 2015-10-16 15:48:47 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players.



except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that.

not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time.


"0 – 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added
5 – 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added
50 – 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added
> 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. We’ve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."

Now younger characters does not necessarily always mean new players, but you have to pretty damned obtuse to not see it is at least biased towards benefiting new players, both in their mentioning of them and in the skill point distribution.


now carry on reading, please.

"We’ve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."

oh look, we can clearly see the reason for that change. again, go back to the devblog and read it.

the paragraph after quite literally says "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone." that it's for everyone not just new players.

read
the
devblog
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#1880 - 2015-10-16 15:49:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition — or indeed any mechancis — bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.


Implants and accelerators accelerate SP acquisition. The more ISK I have, the better implants I can buy and I'll have an advantage over those who can only afford the low end ones. The same will be true with the new packs. If you can pay the ISK, you can buy them off the market from sellers just like anyone else.