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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1841 - 2015-10-16 15:30:56 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.


It's not even remotely good for new ones - new players aren't going to be buying these packets; they wont be able to, since the price will be dictated by what some Trillionaire is willing to pay to level up his next Titan pilot instantly, or what some speculator imagines the price point will go up to. Any new player joining the game already has to decide whether to ride the game as it is or buy PLEX to soften the isk-need at the beginning. But under this system that newbie now has to buy even more PLEX to get one of these packets too, or be left behind by those that can.

Its an issue of perspective - some posters here think having a "pay to catch up" option will lure in more players, while people like me think a "pay or fall behind" as catastrophic for luring those same new players.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1842 - 2015-10-16 15:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:


Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.

And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.


How many 1 week old players can realistically afford that, and how many of those would actually do it even if they could afford it?

Where would the money go from all the plexes they buy?

Why should I care if a handfull of nubs are derping around in purple fit capitals?


Not many could afford to do it, not many would do it, the money goes to ccp to pay for the upkeep of the game, and I'd like to see those killmails start appearing.


You dont seem to be a person who knows the lenghts nerdy gamers who dont leave home and earn a lot doing IT stuff are capable of doing with money they dont spend on weekends at the beach ... do you ?

Your killmails will stop the moment people like me have the oportunity to amass 20 ships with full skill to face anything you bring. You will see the game soon disfavor you when people with skill and no clue start receiving buffs and skilled people start to being nerfet until flatline gaming removes ingame skill and IRL skill to a narrow level.

That is simple causality. Once you have no more limits to content people can jump into without learning, you have to flatline everyone to cookie cutter. That is essentially how WoW, GW and most NCSoft games are the way they are today.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#1843 - 2015-10-16 15:31:31 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.

They don't make you a better pilot, however.

So we don't need them, as pilots.


Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no.



Are you serious, you're basically saying skillpoints don't matter. In which case who cares if CCP implements this feature or not cause skillpoints aren't important player skill is. You must be very "special".
Dave Stark
#1844 - 2015-10-16 15:31:39 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
yet you avoided to reply on any of those...


no i haven't.

the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time.


If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"?

Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion.

I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you.



tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. the issue of people obtaining more SP than normal is also not an issue as i pointed out pages ago - there's nothing a pilot with 400m sp can do perfectly that a character with ~50m sp can't do perfectly either. the time when "i'm the best at this because i have more sp than you" has passed, a long long time ago.

buying and selling sp has always been a thing - that's exactly what the character bazzar does. all this new idea does is remove the complexity of it. no more awkward forum sales, no more convoluted transfer process, easier to see what you're buying/selling etc.

tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.


Haha that`s nonsense. You have no meaningful understanding how it really works. Do you have any argument for what you are saying?




See, I am already doing great in copying your way of posting :D


you're meant to call it nonsense by dismissing i with facts.

let me give you an example; "it's bad because it's bypassing mechanics" - dismissed with the obvious; we've been doing it for ages with the character bazzar.

now, have another go. i know you can do this, i have faith in you.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1845 - 2015-10-16 15:32:07 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no.

So why do we have to take "buzzwords here" to help new players? SP don't matter only pilots skills...

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1846 - 2015-10-16 15:32:31 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.

Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?



Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too.

CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate.

Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar).

EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1847 - 2015-10-16 15:33:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Malcanis' Law is a real thing.


and applies to things aimed at new players.

we established after reading the devblog, and subsequently a few pages ago when i had to point it out to people; that isn't the case. this isn't aimed at new players, it's aimed at everyone.



Haha, then why it is stated that it favours new players. How does it help everyone when it just rips of people above 80mil sp. If you want to boost everyone, make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone. That is cold fair terms. Your arguments are invalid.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1848 - 2015-10-16 15:33:14 UTC

Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.


It's not even remotely good for new ones - new players aren't going to be buying these packets; they wont be able to, since the price will be dictated by what some Trillionaire is willing to pay to level up his next Titan pilot instantly, or what some speculator imagines the price point will go up to. Any new player joining the game already has to decide whether to ride the game as it is or buy PLEX to soften the isk-need at the beginning. But under this system that newbie now has to buy even more PLEX to get one of these packets too, or be left behind by those that can.

Its an issue of perspective - some posters here think having a "pay to catch up" option will lure in more players, while people like me think a "pay or fall behind" as catastrophic for luring those same new players.


New players don't buy characters from the bazaar? Really?

Older players >50m see diminishing returns with this mechanic. With the AUR cost it's not worth doing.



Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1849 - 2015-10-16 15:33:56 UTC
I like the idea of trading the SP rather than the character, so that we can keep character names.

However, outright selling SP is ... um... hell no.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1850 - 2015-10-16 15:34:20 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.


Then you aren't reading Tip's posts critically.
Dave Stark
#1851 - 2015-10-16 15:35:46 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Malcanis' Law is a real thing.


and applies to things aimed at new players.

we established after reading the devblog, and subsequently a few pages ago when i had to point it out to people; that isn't the case. this isn't aimed at new players, it's aimed at everyone.



Haha, then why it is stated that it favours new players. How does it help everyone when it just rips of people above 80mil sp. If you want to boost everyone, make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone. That is cold fair terms. Your arguments are invalid.


try reading the devblog.

it clearly states it's aimed at everyone.

the diminishing returns are to protect the prestige. all in the devblog that you should probably go and read.

don't let facts get in the way of your quoting though. you'll get the hang of it soon, i hope.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1852 - 2015-10-16 15:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.

Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?



Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too.

CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate.

Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar).

EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts.


Jenn, explain to me very specifically how this mechanic adds a pay to win vector that buying a perfect Svipul pilot from Character Bazaar doesn't already offer.

Edit: Where did you get that it's less than Character Bazaar?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Bantara
Dolmite Cornerstone
#1853 - 2015-10-16 15:36:22 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Bantara wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have.

Why make and option to buy SP, then?

Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however.


Eve is not a lobby FPS where the mechanics are all the same and the only things which matter are teamwork/tactics and personal skill. It is an MMO, and investment does currently matter(objective fact) and should matter(personal opinion.)

I don't think character building through investment in SP is a game mechanic worth preserving.


Clearly. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1854 - 2015-10-16 15:36:32 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


no i haven't.

the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time.


If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"?

Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion.

I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you.



tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. the issue of people obtaining more SP than normal is also not an issue as i pointed out pages ago - there's nothing a pilot with 400m sp can do perfectly that a character with ~50m sp can't do perfectly either. the time when "i'm the best at this because i have more sp than you" has passed, a long long time ago.

buying and selling sp has always been a thing - that's exactly what the character bazzar does. all this new idea does is remove the complexity of it. no more awkward forum sales, no more convoluted transfer process, easier to see what you're buying/selling etc.

tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.


Haha that`s nonsense. You have no meaningful understanding how it really works. Do you have any argument for what you are saying?




See, I am already doing great in copying your way of posting :D


you're meant to call it nonsense by dismissing i with facts.

let me give you an example; "it's bad because it's bypassing mechanics" - dismissed with the obvious; we've been doing it for ages with the character bazzar.

now, have another go. i know you can do this, i have faith in you.


And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?

You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Dave Stark
#1855 - 2015-10-16 15:37:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.


Then you aren't reading Tip's posts critically.


at this point, i don't think it matters. given the ample opportunity provided to provide any kind issue this would cause i doubt he ever will since he hasn't already.
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#1856 - 2015-10-16 15:37:33 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.

Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.




Not everyone agrees with that assumption or there wouldn't be 90+ pages of paying subscribers saying "NO".

The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.

Eve is NOT just about blowing things up. There's trade and community and capability is part of building the community.

As it stands your kill count will become the new demarcation of maturity and activity in the game. That's not a good thing, because there's so many other things you can accomplish in game that aren't tracked.
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#1857 - 2015-10-16 15:37:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.


Then you aren't reading Tip's posts critically.


neither don zolas posts
all discussions with dave are in an infinite loop and the resulting black hole will kill all of us.

i still want a "dislike" button for forum posts please :3
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1858 - 2015-10-16 15:38:05 UTC
you know ccp looking at this thread and thinking about the vets saying we can just rinse our alts of sp and apply to our main, CCP: "yes this is working they are all talking about rinsing alts, they have to buy aurum to do that, op success"

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1859 - 2015-10-16 15:38:31 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


let me give you an example; "it's bad because it's bypassing mechanics" - dismissed with the obvious; we've been doing it for ages with the character bazzar.



We haven't been doing this with the Character Bazaar. The CB is a flawed process, those flaws (having to have an empty character slot, not being able to change name and so forth) make it a palatable necessary Evil.

In No place on earth is it a good idea to take a necessary evil and make it into a REAL evil......
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1860 - 2015-10-16 15:38:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Malcanis' Law is a real thing.


and applies to things aimed at new players.

we established after reading the devblog, and subsequently a few pages ago when i had to point it out to people; that isn't the case. this isn't aimed at new players, it's aimed at everyone.



Haha, then why it is stated that it favours new players. How does it help everyone when it just rips of people above 80mil sp. If you want to boost everyone, make 1mil sp 1 plex for everyone. That is cold fair terms. Your arguments are invalid.


try reading the devblog.

it clearly states it's aimed at everyone.

the diminishing returns are to protect the prestige. all in the devblog that you should probably go and read.

don't let facts get in the way of your quoting though. you'll get the hang of it soon, i hope.


try reading the devblog.

it clearly states it favours younger players.

the diminishing returns are to protect the prestige, which does not mean anything as it cannot be protected if someone really wants to drop cash to do it. So that protection is fake, it is just more expensive to reach that prestige.

don`t let facts get in the way of your quoting though - ah you are not operating with any facts anyway, i do not have to finish this one :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know