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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1821 - 2015-10-16 15:23:06 UTC

Don ZOLA replying with "no u" is not a good strategy for argumentation.

Please try again.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1822 - 2015-10-16 15:23:28 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.

Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.



Took you 8 mins to read whole topic and thing about all arguments mentioned and come up with such conclusion. Impressive!



That is preciselly why letting people instajump into end game content is a bad idea.

Get people to just insta jump into content they are not ready for, forming a "majority" to demand changes ingame that would be not need should the players had been better prepared to be at that level.


People can use the character bazaar today. Your argument is invalid.



Never said bazaar is good (deja vu).

It is worse when you can actually buy skill from 5 sources into making one ubber char than buying one char you have no changing skill chance.

As you clearly will repeat all the things said in the thread and I wont be answering the same things again, I will just block. It is easier.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1823 - 2015-10-16 15:23:41 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.

Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?



It is not good for new players. Maybe for 1% of them. Same ratio can be applied for older as well.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1824 - 2015-10-16 15:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sibyyl wrote:

Jenn aSide wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?

Please list them.





So you aren't reading Tippia's posts?


I read them. I don't see reasons against, just opinions.




I know for a fact you aren't this naive. i've seen you use good reasoning skills, I don't understand why you can't see (for yourself) why this is a bad idea. Maybe not $1000 jeans bad, but it's up there.

A game like EVE never should cross certain lines. Things like PLEX and the character bazaar existing is one thing (necassary evils due to the fact that people will do bad things, like buy isk or sell characters on EBAY), but intentionally going beyond that, on purpose creating a situation where the people with lots of wealth end up having an easier go of it?

As it is now you have to buy what amounts to a flawed character if you want to 'speed things up' for yourself. This way experienced players get to make focused 'super characters' with zero skill training flaws powered by some dude's credit card.

Come on, you're telling me you can't see why this is a bad thing? Malcanis' Law is a real thing.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1825 - 2015-10-16 15:24:04 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.

They don't make you a better pilot, however.

So we don't need them, as pilots.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Xyzibit
New-Roots
#1826 - 2015-10-16 15:24:08 UTC
No! I strictly vote against it. CCP, you better don't go that far...
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1827 - 2015-10-16 15:24:55 UTC

You think the Bazaar isn't good? What's your solution? Delete the bazaar? Tell me more.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1828 - 2015-10-16 15:25:05 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?

Please list them.

There you go and without buzzwords "pay to win":
Tippia wrote:
This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design — it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.


that's allot of words to say nothing, exactly:
it will be bad for morale? how, dumping my mining skills that i have not used in the last 9 years will be bad for my morale?
how about put yourself into a new player side, starting this game from the scratch, seeing all those new shinny ships everyone fly arownd but you can do it only after 6 months? like hell i would wait that long; i did it years ago, yes, but then eve was "the game" now it's just one among many many other game; this will help retain new players, and that is a good thing; and if you "smart" ppl think eve can live without new players you are wrong

i really don't get it; like really really don't understand some of you; i have my sps, and no one is going to take them away; now other ppl will be able to get sps "faster" and reach "the comfort zone" of about 50 mil sps faster; SO WHAT???! they will still die, they will still fly ******** fitted ships
.
like really? why the hell should i care someone have same sp lvl with me or even more?n
Bantara
Dolmite Cornerstone
#1829 - 2015-10-16 15:25:10 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have.

Why make and option to buy SP, then?

Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however.


Eve is not a lobby FPS where the mechanics are all the same and the only things which matter are teamwork/tactics and personal skill. It is an MMO, and investment does currently matter(objective fact) and should matter(personal opinion.)
Dave Stark
#1830 - 2015-10-16 15:25:18 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
yet you avoided to reply on any of those...


no i haven't.

the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time.


If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"?

Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion.

I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you.



tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. the issue of people obtaining more SP than normal is also not an issue as i pointed out pages ago - there's nothing a pilot with 400m sp can do perfectly that a character with ~50m sp can't do perfectly either. the time when "i'm the best at this because i have more sp than you" has passed, a long long time ago.

buying and selling sp has always been a thing - that's exactly what the character bazzar does. all this new idea does is remove the complexity of it. no more awkward forum sales, no more convoluted transfer process, easier to see what you're buying/selling etc.

tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1831 - 2015-10-16 15:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Sibyyl wrote:

Don ZOLA replying with "no u" is not a good strategy for argumentation.

Please try again.



Since you have failed to actually read arguments in this topic, or provide counter arguments for them and yet think you should comment regardless, I find that such comment is more than appropriate for interlocutor of such level.

Edit: Same as Dark and all others who discuss in such ignorant way.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Penbreaker
Outer Edge
#1832 - 2015-10-16 15:25:52 UTC
There are 3 points I read so far that I really like on this thread:

1. Player trust is potentially reduced as new and rapidly highly skilled characters could be the same existing a-ho you just kicked form corp.

2. There is a difference between reallocating SP within an account and trading openly on the market.

The dev post describes a penalty (an SP sink) for highly skilled players consuming sold points. I think a similar economic principal should be in place for selling across accounts. I'd like to see x number of free or bonus re-allocation for intra-account charactor SP swapping. At the same time I'd like to see an SP sink when trading across accounts. This rewards building your own toons with time and reduces the overall pool for short-cutters keeping time the primary generator of SP.

I like the idea of specializing an alt faster and moving no longer used points to newly wanted areas without purchasing a whole character to do it. On a small scale it would create a pleasing short term reward and improve the game experience.

3. The faster a player gets what he wants, plays to the new skill and explores the facets of the game, the faster he leaves the game for a new experience.

Which is fine really. I like Eve for the never ending experiences on the horizon. But if the horizon arrives there are other things to do.

A 4th point that may have already been made but I missed because I didn't read every post. Whelping new players is incredibly easy currently. I'm not opposed to making it more difficult by allowing fast SP acquisition. It actually puts more emphasis on pilot skills, which cannot be purchased.
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#1833 - 2015-10-16 15:27:05 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
CCP should instead start renting solar systems themselves. That would be a much less impactant way of rising cash quickly.

So I pay like 3 plex month and I have my very own wormhole with a couple NPCs to patrol it like a "mini me concord".

Space Garrison.



I would pay for this. I really, really would. Even regular systems.

Please CCP, please allow me to sponsor my own system /s that I can charge rent for anyone wanting to Dock at any of my stations.


Wait... We already do that. Except we have to defend those systems ourselves...
Dave Stark
#1834 - 2015-10-16 15:27:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Malcanis' Law is a real thing.


and applies to things aimed at new players.

we established after reading the devblog, and subsequently a few pages ago when i had to point it out to people; that isn't the case. this isn't aimed at new players, it's aimed at everyone.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#1835 - 2015-10-16 15:27:31 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:


Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.

And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.


How many 1 week old players can realistically afford that, and how many of those would actually do it even if they could afford it?

Where would the money go from all the plexes they buy?

Why should I care if a handfull of nubs are derping around in purple fit capitals?


Not many could afford to do it, not many would do it, the money goes to ccp to pay for the upkeep of the game, and I'd like to see those killmails start appearing.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1836 - 2015-10-16 15:27:43 UTC

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.

They don't make you a better pilot, however.

So we don't need them, as pilots.


Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1837 - 2015-10-16 15:29:02 UTC
And it is like reading all the Capital Ship bla bla all over again.

Capital ships are useless today, we need balance, bla bla bla ...

Just because there is a mass of capital ship pilots that are in the wrong place with the wrong skills doing the wrong thing.

They think that Capital ships are just "big slow cruisers" as it seems.

But it is actually good for us already long time in game that change. Personally it is rewarding.

Im just sad I will see that despite the effort in building AI npcs who fight almost like a human, they will have to soon dumb them down to favor people who just sit on a battleship and think that it is hard to defeat them because the battleship is "useless".

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1838 - 2015-10-16 15:29:16 UTC

Bantara wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have.

Why make and option to buy SP, then?

Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however.


Eve is not a lobby FPS where the mechanics are all the same and the only things which matter are teamwork/tactics and personal skill. It is an MMO, and investment does currently matter(objective fact) and should matter(personal opinion.)


I don't think character building through investment in SP is a game mechanic worth preserving.

This change has nothing to do with teamwork or gameplay in space, which are the hallmarks of this game.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1839 - 2015-10-16 15:30:15 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.

They don't make you a better pilot, however.

So we don't need them, as pilots.


Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no.


Not if you show up with enough number of ppl no. For the rest of us, sp actuall matter on how our ship performs, but dont worry, u will get there eventually.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1840 - 2015-10-16 15:30:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
yet you avoided to reply on any of those...


no i haven't.

the only solid argument so far has been people paying to hit V in a skill that was released only yesterday - which is only an issue for like, a month. which is a trivially small amount of time.


If you do not have basic understanding you should avoid discussions then. Every single valid argument you have avoided to counter argument by stating "those are not real arguments"?

Well if they are so weak why not answer to the challenge and bury the challengers? Though I assume the real goal you are after is spam/troll so it is our mistake for even considering you for worthy participant in the discussion.

I hope you will have nothing against me quoting every post you made and doing the same to you.



tippias argument is that you can "bypass game mehanics" - we're already doing that with the character bazzar. the issue of people obtaining more SP than normal is also not an issue as i pointed out pages ago - there's nothing a pilot with 400m sp can do perfectly that a character with ~50m sp can't do perfectly either. the time when "i'm the best at this because i have more sp than you" has passed, a long long time ago.

buying and selling sp has always been a thing - that's exactly what the character bazzar does. all this new idea does is remove the complexity of it. no more awkward forum sales, no more convoluted transfer process, easier to see what you're buying/selling etc.

tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.


Haha that`s nonsense. You have no meaningful understanding how it really works. Do you have any argument for what you are saying?




See, I am already doing great in copying your way of posting :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know