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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1781 - 2015-10-16 15:00:45 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is?
The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates.

You know… how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1782 - 2015-10-16 15:01:17 UTC

Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?

Please list them.



Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1783 - 2015-10-16 15:03:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i'm bored of pointing out that "he has more sp than me" isn't a valid counterargument to them putting this in the game.

Good thing that it wasn't used as an argument (counter or otherwise), then.

Quote:
what difference will it actually make to the game when this is implemented?
what, in-game, problem will this cause?

It will cause the fundamental problem that you are now able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it.

It is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design — it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.


subway was lukewarm - should have ate it in the store rather than bringing it home. c'est la vie.

nice list of buzzwords. now, what will happen in-game because of this change that isn't already happening? as yet you've listed nothing.


Going this direction, the game will die. I have wrote numerous reasons why, feel free to read them.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#1784 - 2015-10-16 15:03:56 UTC
Bantara wrote:
Orions Lord wrote:
I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex.
Then eve will be free to play for me.

I am sure CCP would love that loss of income.


Someone had to buy the PLEX. They lose no money. Don't be this way.



You can make enough ISK in game to purchase a PLEX without having to ever touch cash. Eve can be free to play if you can make more than a billion isk a month. Which happens.

I am sure the mining-bot account holders will love this feature. Less time required to get to their optimal training and harvesting.
Dave Stark
#1785 - 2015-10-16 15:04:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is?
The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates.

You know… how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.



i haven't moved the goalposts once.

not that it matters if i did, you haven't provided a single reason why this idea is bad other than "now you can get more sp on a character than the theoretical maximum based on character DOB".

just name an issue this will cause players in game? is it really that hard? (guess it is since you've failed to do it 3 times now).
Jeff Kione
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1786 - 2015-10-16 15:05:41 UTC
Hi CCP,

I think the proposed system isn't terrible. The fundamentals behind it seem to be not significantly different than the character bazaar, with the main difference being that you can keep your in-game identity instead of having to assume someone else's. This is a strong disincentive of the current character bazaar that keeps most people who have already established a character identity from "paying to win" - and this is a good thing, as strong ties to character identity probably contributes to player retention. Similarly, you'll probably want a similar disincentive for the new system; perhaps not having only an 80% penalty for such a wide range of SP levels.

The only point that I would raise is that I think you should be careful how you market this to new players. Right now, someone who wants to skip right into a "powerful" character will Google "buy Eve character" and find the character bazaar. No one necessarily points them that way, as these are the same people who would buy a character off of Ebay if they could. To this extent, the system isn't marketed to players but it is available - something that I think is the best of both worlds.

If you market the SP packets to new players, you might have some newer players drawing links between the SP packets and freemium pay walls that exist in time-gated games. You know, "why wait to train those support skills when you could undock right now with them for only $x.xx". Specifically, I think you want to avoid implying that skill training is a time gate à la freemium games, as that could turn people off.

I think with stronger disincentives for higher SP players (as I mentioned before - step up the penalties quicker), you could market the SP packets as more of an initial optional "boost" to avoid some of the initial hardships of the game.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1787 - 2015-10-16 15:06:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
gascanu wrote:
no, the training speed for me is the time needed to get the isk used to pay for the char
No. That is not your training speed. None of that affects how quickly your character acquires SP (other than if you use the SP to buy implants).

If you buy a character from the bazaar, no mechanics are skipped because your character is still acquiring SP at a maximum of 2700 SP/h — same as always. All that's happening is that you are training a different character at that speed than you, personally, did yesterday.

Players do not exist in-game, and are not subject to game mechanics. Their characters are. You are talking about the speed at which a player gains access to a high-SP character, which no game mechanics exist to regulate since we are talking about a player. At most, there is the EULA, but that's nto a game mechanic. What the player can access should not be confused with how quickly a character can gain a high amount of SP, which is something that is regulated by game mechanics since characters exist within the game.

Player — character access — EULA.
Character — SP acquisition — game mechanics.
Do not confuse the two.



dude take a break and relax a bit:

i, new player jinx buy plex>sell plex>buy one 200 mil caracter on the bazar, i can have that 200 mil char in 2 days; for me that is MY trainig speed, 2 days, what you trying to tell with overcomplicated mathematics about sps/h is just dust in the wind;
also, if you like to talk about sp/h, you forget to add that noone is buying this new sps packs without someone selling them after training them; so while some chars will go up in sps, others will go down, with the new system total average sps will actually go down, so in fact the max 2700sp/h will go down on average and so on and so on...
it's easy: instead of buying one 100 mil sp char you can now buy how many " sps packs" you need to get your char to 100 mil if you really want that 100 mil char...
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1788 - 2015-10-16 15:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
That is exactly the problem.

See. Someone get to the thread, without the will to read it through, then make an assumption that the issue can be summarised in a couple sentences. It is done regardless of how dismissive it is. So in no time we have a complex idea reduced to two pairs of sentences that dont even explain the idea itself. People like, do it.

One year later people is complaining that EVE is not the game they thought it was because all the people said it was a complex game requiring actual gameplay.

I still remember the guy ragequitting because he watched butterfly effect movie and thought that was eve. Well, that was eve. Before people started to demanding stupid balancing and solo play enhancement. You want solo play, you will never have butterfly effect by using solo play.

Well, you will never have clever mechanics when 1 week old players have access to capital ships.

And you will never understand how badly conceived an idea is if you are not willing to read the ideas of all people regardless of agreeing or not with them.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1789 - 2015-10-16 15:06:38 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?

Please list them.




This thread is 90 pages long, if you havnt found a single argument against this yet, then i suspect the problem is with your reading abillites, and not anywhere else.Roll

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1790 - 2015-10-16 15:07:21 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?

Please list them.

There you go and without buzzwords "pay to win":
Tippia wrote:
This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design — it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1791 - 2015-10-16 15:07:56 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.

Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?



Read topic?

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Janeos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1792 - 2015-10-16 15:08:30 UTC
Liquefying our enemies after the Goonmass crushes their will to fight is going to be so, so satisfying. Permadeath has arrived, y'all!
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1793 - 2015-10-16 15:09:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is?
The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates.

You know… how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.


Or i could skip it by buying a whole pilot, lock, stock, and barrel from the bazaar. With plex that I paid cash for. So, this isn't any kind of earth-shattering development from that perspective. The only difference is that instead of paying tens of Billions of ISK (derived from plex sales) for a whole pilot at one time I instead pay smaller amounts at one time to touch up my existing pilot(s)
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1794 - 2015-10-16 15:09:34 UTC

Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.

Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1795 - 2015-10-16 15:09:51 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is?
The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates.

You know… how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself.



i haven't moved the goalposts once.

not that it matters if i did, you haven't provided a single reason why this idea is bad other than "now you can get more sp on a character than the theoretical maximum based on character DOB".

just name an issue this will cause players in game? is it really that hard? (guess it is since you've failed to do it 3 times now).


There are plenty of posts with different solid arguments, yet you avoided to reply on any of those...

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1796 - 2015-10-16 15:10:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Laodell wrote:
While we are at it why not add trans-gendered pilots and make other physical defects available. Lets get a wheelchair or walker option for the older pilots. We have scars why not amputee's and birth defects?

Sure, but these things, just like this skill-point transfer, should available ingame and not to be purchased for extra money.

Laodell wrote:
After re-reading these threads I see one common theme coming from everyone that is in favor of the change.

Impatience.
...
If I could have done *everything* in the first year I would have gotten bored, and found another game to play.

You can give up, patience is out these days. Everyone is conditioned towards impatience and I Need My Stuff Now.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Nervon
HaveItYourWay Corp
#1797 - 2015-10-16 15:10:43 UTC
Just my 2 cents...

Make this like the current remap, you can only extract skill points so many times a year or add skill points.

Example: New players start with X Skill-add points from the start
All other players will only receive Y skill-add/Skill-extract points a year

If you are wanting to fix the Character Bazaar -Allow people to make changes after purchase.
-first time you start with the tune, you are allowed (for a cost...) to change the name and for an additional fee...
move a percentage of the skill points around -Only the skill books already inserted can be increased and the books that you reduce to zero stay inserted....
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1798 - 2015-10-16 15:11:05 UTC
Janeos wrote:
Liquefying our enemies after the Goonmass crushes their will to fight is going to be so, so satisfying. Permadeath has arrived, y'all!


Yeah, like, ganked by an army of Mastery V Tech 3 Destroyer alts created "last week" paid in bulk.

That will be really fun to watch.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1799 - 2015-10-16 15:11:37 UTC

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?

Please list them.

There you go and without buzzwords "pay to win":
Tippia wrote:
This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design — it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.


All I see from Tippia is adjectives and buzzwords. It's not an argument so much as it is an opinion.. and a very subjective one.

Tippia please back up your statement with why's.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1800 - 2015-10-16 15:11:49 UTC
deezy 1dabest wrote:
I just wanted to say that overall I support this idea.

It is really a huge improvement on character trading while also creating a huge SP sink once you have done it a certain number of times.

It will give dummies like me the chance to fly around in things we really should not be flying to give out some sweet kill mails to the real PVPers running around.



I see what people are saying about an issue with not being able to guess a persons SP by tapping their name in local but I would call that for the better. I remember in my first few months being very harshly targeted specifically for my low age. I may have come out better on the other side of dealing with that but that is not changed here. The only difference is those pirates could end up being the easy target when they jump in on someone who has dumped in a load of cash.

Only flying what you can afford to lose will take on a whole new meaning when newbies in battleships go where they should not be and get wiped out by a small group of players that actually know what they are doing with their SP.


With all that being said I do see people feeling like this significantly demeans their SP investment but there is much more that comes from growing your assets and abilities over time than just being able to sport a flashy ship that would take newbies a year or more to get.


Just my 2 ISK that will get quickly overlooked.

o7


Just curious, Why do you feel a Skillpoint sink is either a good thing or desired by CCP?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE