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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Big Lynx
#1561 - 2015-10-16 10:45:12 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:


Please do not do this.


THIS
Agreed, I thought it'd be a cold day in hell before I ever agreed with anything Ripard Teg has to say after eroticagate, yesterday, hell froze over.


Well, finally I'd have a good reason to put EvE on ice for a long time or forever.
Eternal Bob
Doomheim
#1562 - 2015-10-16 10:45:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar.
No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists.

By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation — a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).


The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.

Biomassing to free a char slot.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1563 - 2015-10-16 10:50:14 UTC
Eternal Bob wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar.
No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists.

By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation — a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).


The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.


You're actively avoiding Tippia's point.
Dave Stark
#1564 - 2015-10-16 10:50:34 UTC
Eternal Bob wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar.
No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists.

By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation — a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).


The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.


in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#1565 - 2015-10-16 10:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
After reading Sugar Kyle's (Current CSM member) post at Crossing Zebras it's apparent that CCP really do want to go down this path:

Sugar Kyle at Crossing Zebras wrote:
When this was proposed at the CSM summit, I swiveled my chair and asked if they realized that they were undoing the basic structure that characters and game progression worked under. They said that they did. I tried to wrap my head around it. Things would change, meanings would be different, and a shift that feels gradual but enormous would happen and it would carry with it changes that we could not foresee.


For the full story I've linked it below as source:

Source: Conflicted

So sad to see this from CCP and how short their memories are.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
darmwand
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1566 - 2015-10-16 10:53:49 UTC
This is an awful idea. It appears the devs are putting more and more effort into appeasing a crowd that a) does not care about the game and never will and b) would be bad for Eve's general health even if they started playing, thus they come up with quick money-grabbing schemes for the short-tempered and impatient casual players.

A look at the current player numbers should be a warning that maybe, just maybe, the people who play Eve are not interested in an easier, faster-paced and dumber game. Waiting for your skills is part of what makes people (at least me) attached to their characters; I still remember when I had to wait for AWU 5 and the joy I felt once it was trained.

In combination with multi-character training this will pretty much allow people to generate arbitrary amounts of SP out of thin air. Admittedly the price would probably be a bit high at first but then, once this is in the game, making it more affordable is only a matter of a few minor tweaks. This kind of thinking has ruined many a game before and it was the very thing that we protested against back then.

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1567 - 2015-10-16 10:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
His point is stupid.

He's saying that because the character that was being trained was adhering to a CCP designated "speed limit" as to how many skill points it was possible to gain per hour, that when I purchase that character via char bazaar it's some how the defacto difference that determines allowable and unallowable.

But when it comes down to it, I'm still personally spending zero time involved with that characters training, so to me, that character is essentially born out of nothing and coming into my ownership with no time cost.

Now his point is "someone had to spend that amount of time administering the training queue" and since it leveled at a finite rate, it's special and OK. But an equivalent amount of possible time within the confines of the speed limit was expended by SOMEONE when a specific character is now benefiting from increased SP thanks to a skill extractor.

His issue seems to be in some backwards separation between character and owner. That even though I can buy a character without my having spent zero time nuturing it's training, that it's OK compared to my spending zero time using someone else's skill points they've sold me to level up one specific character.

It's dumb
Big Lynx
#1568 - 2015-10-16 10:59:32 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
After reading Sugar Kyle's (Current CSM member) post at Crossing Zebras it's apparent that CCP really do want to go down this path:

Sugar Kyle at Crossing Zebras wrote:
When this was proposed at the CSM summit, I swiveled my chair and asked if they realized that they were undoing the basic structure that characters and game progression worked under. They said that they did. I tried to wrap my head around it. Things would change, meanings would be different, and a shift that feels gradual but enormous would happen and it would carry with it changes that we could not foresee.


For the full story I've linked it below as source:

Source: Conflicted

So sad to see this from CCP and how short their memories are.


It seems the main goal of CCP's CEOs is maximum money extraction `from the players and NOT improving the game experience for them. Bad move CCP, bad move.

But as times change and the responsibles of CCP too, I'd say New brooms sweep clean, don't they CCP?Twisted
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1569 - 2015-10-16 11:00:37 UTC
skills are not being conjured out of thin air, somebody HAS to train these skills originally.

I dont really care about this change to be honest as my own skill progression is not capped or changed this is just a complete optional thing.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Dave Stark
#1570 - 2015-10-16 11:01:28 UTC
darmwand wrote:
would be bad for Eve's general health


i love how your post opens with this, and fails to justify it in any way what so ever.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1571 - 2015-10-16 11:01:56 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:


Well, finally I'd have a good reason to put EvE on ice for a long time or forever.


Cry

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
JSSix
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#1572 - 2015-10-16 11:02:35 UTC
Ohh Hell No...

one of the most stupid idea ever CCP has cooked up in their labs....

not to mention the deminishing return and of course... a new way to milk money from customer by CCP.

but its just stupid..
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1573 - 2015-10-16 11:03:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Eternal Bob wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar.
No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists.

By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation — a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).


The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.


in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void.

SP sinks huh~~

Imagine if we had diminishing returns on isk transfers

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1574 - 2015-10-16 11:06:08 UTC
You know how people are always arguing in that one thread that has like 200 pages about EVE DECLINE RAMPANT?

Where half the dudes are like, it's dying! and the other half are like, "no it's not you have no proof!"

Well uhhhhhhhhhh

this is kind of proof that the "eve is dying" guys are right, dontcha think?

So instead of making matters worse by adversely reacting to the change being adminstered by the people who's very lives rely upon the success of this game via threatening to quit and spewing vitriol, you throttle back a bit and let Jesus, I mean CCP take the wheel on this one?

Obviously game isn't doing so well, so a change is needed. EvE can't retain new players, proven by their willingness to make such a drastic change in an effort to entice new players into wanting to give this game another go and the means to reach a level where they can personally feel satisfied with their ability to perform/contribute in a meaningful manner that convinces them to stick around and become long term subscribers to the beauty this game offers via personal interaction with others flying ships in space.

It doesn't actually hurt any of you. You're just imagining that it will.
Artemis Ellery Sazas
Shock and Awe Inc.
#1575 - 2015-10-16 11:06:32 UTC
I just threw up in disgust. Sad
Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#1576 - 2015-10-16 11:07:00 UTC
If the idea that this is for new players, it really isn't.

Looking at the bazaar now and doing the math, the skill packets will be about 250M to 350M ISK each. Your avg newbro will need to be cash rich and committed to playing eve to spend RL cash to advance his/her char.

I doubt there will be many newbro's doing that.

This is for committed players (vets?) who want a new clean char but don't want to create a new account/sub and do it the "hard" way.

Aside from the ISK/$ cost, losing a character's history bothers me. Probably more than it should, but I like the intel I get from seeing the age of a char and its employment history even if there are a lot of assumptions I make from that data.

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka
Dave Stark
#1577 - 2015-10-16 11:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Eternal Bob wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I could always have a character that accumulated SP at 10x the rate mine had accumulated it; i could go and buy it from the bazzar.
No, you could never do that. You could only ever accumulate SP on a character at the speed dictated by the character's attributes. With this change, no such limit exists.

By trading SP rather than skills, accumulation speed has no upper limit and only depends on your willingness to shell out cash, and thus you have a situation where you pay to bypass a mechanical limitation — a limitation that is in place in full force in the bazaar (which is why the bazaar doesn't break things).


The limitations on SP accumulation speed will remain for characters whose SP are being harvested. Extra SP will not be generated out of thin air and thus nothing is being broken.


in fact, due to the diminishing returns SP is being thrown in to the void.

SP sinks huh~~

Imagine if we had diminishing returns on isk transfers


"today numerous players have been banned by CCP peligro for automating isk transfers of 1 isk at a time to bypass diminishing returns on isk transfers".

edit: i feel the need to point out this is an entirely fabricated quote by me, and nothing of the like has actually occurred... don't want to be a stunt flores mk2.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1578 - 2015-10-16 11:08:06 UTC
JSSix wrote:
Ohh Hell No...

one of the most stupid idea ever CCP has cooked up in their labs....

not to mention the deminishing return and of course... a new way to milk money from customer by CCP.

but its just stupid..



This is the way how to keep cssh flow growing while online is stagnat.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1579 - 2015-10-16 11:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
I invite anyone who wants to settle their argument once and for all to face a T3 Cruiser by a pilot that may have started playing as long as minimally possible to pilot said cruiser with a Mastery Level 2, in a Racial Frigate with no moludles other than the ones possible with starting skills, and only in a manner consistent with just finished career agent.

Unless you are able to show a real fight that could end up with the Frigate victory, your saying that SP means nothing and only player IRL skill does is just Charismatic Non-Sense.

So it is to say SP is everything, unless you can show a skilled IRL lose to a unskilled players with conditions otherwise identical.

Either means nothing, together they mean something. It is exactly the problem with SP sale. It makes one and another lose ties, therefore, voiding the meaning of both.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Dave Stark
#1580 - 2015-10-16 11:10:29 UTC
Astroyka wrote:
If the idea that this is for new players, it really isn't.

Looking at the bazaar now and doing the math, the skill packets will be about 250M to 350M ISK each. Your avg newbro will need to be cash rich and committed to playing eve to spend RL cash to advance his/her char.

I doubt there will be many newbro's doing that.

This is for committed players (vets?) who want a new clean char but don't want to create a new account/sub and do it the "hard" way.

Aside from the ISK/$ cost, losing a character's history bothers me. Probably more than it should, but I like the intel I get from seeing the age of a char and its employment history even if there are a lot of assumptions I make from that data.



they're going to be more than that.

do the math. on a perfect remap with +5s, 7.7 days to get 500,000 SP. 7.7 days game time at current plex prices - 400m. (now add on whatever the extractor will cost).

you're looking at 400m+

if chars on the bazzar are going for 250-350m/per 500,000 sp then new players are better off buying a new character than buying straight SP. even more so since people who train characters for sale are less likely to have wasted/redundant skills trained so they'll get more bang for their buck.