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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Stevo patriot
Shady Oaks
#781 - 2015-10-15 20:19:41 UTC
Worst idea I've heard since I started playing...

I'm strongly against this guys.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#782 - 2015-10-15 20:19:49 UTC
Bai wrote:
I'm kinda okay with this.

You might want to add a "cooling off period", where you can re-inject the skillpoints you just extracted without any penalty. Just in case someone changes their mind.

This idea is already diminishing a lot of the permanence of decisions. Having any period at all where you can reinject them with no penalty would simply be reinforcing that lack of permanence. You made the decision, now you have to live with it.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#783 - 2015-10-15 20:20:19 UTC
drunklies wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Querns wrote:

Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.



Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years.


Consistency might matter, but newer players are in such a bad position nowadays that something has to change.

This might be somewhat overkill and I do believe it needs to be toned down, but I'm in favor of anything that improves the new player experience because it's the purest form of sandbox content CCP can add to the game; more players in space.

And while it would be nice to set some further restrictions on this idea, it can hardly be considered 'P2W' any more than we already have available. You can buy as much SP on the bazaar as you want and you can buy as much ISK as you want.

I think the most reasonable question is, if an older player is allowed to circumvent painful experiences in the game through the purchase or selling of PLEX, why should a newer player not be entitled to a better starting experience through SP, especially given how this 'power' shifts further towards older players with every year that passes?


People always seem to be saying this. People were saying this in 2006, when others had 2 years on them. Guess what, it didn't really matter then, and it doesn't really matter now.


Two years is nothing.

The average vet, me included, now has close to infinite resources and alts. We have reached a point in EVE where we can literally throw triage carriers and dreads away.

In 2006, the game still wasn't very well understood. Now, most players have grasped that cap escalations, for example, at 500-1b/hour are better income than HS mining. Which is also why most of C5/6 space has become a PVE environment with little conflict, it is also why huge nullsec alliances have created the safest ratting space possible and farmed the **** out of it for years. Or how incursion groups have optimized every last aspect of their gameplay. All of this is evidenced by inflation rates; people have simply gotten much better at accumulating wealth/power.

Ever wondered why years ago you'd see nothing but ratting Drakes, and over the years those same players are now ratting with multiboxed carriers?

What this means is that both the learning curve and the 'falling-behind' curve for new players is ever-increasing and has gotten to a stage where it's utterly stupid.

An older player should have an advantage over someone new in an MMO, but if you let this scale too far, you will end up with a game where the advantage you have over a new player is no longer relevant because there are no longer any new players around to use this advantage against; which I am sure we can both agree is not healthy for the game.
Grimmash
New Jovian Exploration Department
New Jovian Collective
#784 - 2015-10-15 20:21:37 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Grimmash wrote:
I do not like this idea. If Eve is to be persistent and about choices, this doesn't really fit. This change will make character age meaningless. Not in the "I've played longer than you, grrr!" sense, but in a very real recruiting and security sense, this diminishes tools for validating players by reputation, by age and, by proxy, experience.

It also allows for spies, corp thieves, etc, to break out of the persistence cycle of needing to go dormant, or train an alt, or start fresh, or keep a stable of clean accounts handy and training to meet the infiltration needs. You could clear a corp out, pump the skills into a new alt with the isk you got, and move on. We'll have no way to know if that new bro with high skills is just someone who paid to get ahead, or someone who is utilizing the system to accelerate the process of conniving into the corp the repeat the cycle. For many corps, I imagine any character with an unbalanced time v sp profile will immediately be rejected. In game where trust and reputations are a big part of things, this is not a step that will help new players find the groups they need to join to really enjoy Eve. This system will just make all characters, and especially young characters, even more suspect.

But everything you say here can be done by buying a pre-skilled character off the already existing bazaar.



The main issue is that someone had to train the character, and it has an associated history, or lack thereof. If you want a clean character, you have to buy a clean one that has been running, or plan for your own stable of clean characters/accounts. Allowing SP to just get moved around sidesteps the whole persistent character history and associated time and cost to get the clean characters. Right now, getting clean characters has a definite cost to the person doing it, either time, money, or isk on the Bazaar. Moving skillpoints around for money removes the whole aspect of burning characters with suitable profiles for those engaging in nefarious deeds.

I'm not against corp thieves, or any of that gameplay. I really think that this change will not impact those players much at all, as smart players or good thieves will find dumb marks or figure out how to get isk to offset the time component of training characters by buying them. Buying a character is fine, but requires the thief to convincingly sell the history or convince a group that they are trustworthy despite the character sale. I do think this change will impact legitimate newbros who have $50 bucks to burn, and think that getting themselves some SP will level the playing field, but will instead find that many good player groups will look at the SP to time differential and assume the worst.

SP is a rather dumb concept in the current market for games, but it's how Eve has run. Dodging fixing SP issues by devaluing it does not resolve the frustrations of the SP system.
Black Panthera
#785 - 2015-10-15 20:22:07 UTC
Maybe CCP could tweak this idea and make it limited to own account/toon(s)? I would like to be able to pay (if not possible to get it for free) to transfer some of 'misplaced' SP into more needed/usefull skills..
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#786 - 2015-10-15 20:23:02 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
I want to re-iterate. That if you do support this idea, you should NOT support diminishing of SP for toons with higher skills. If SP is to be directed traded the tax should be the Aurum / PLEX needed to move it. Not the SP itself - SP requires a player sub / money to produce - as such it should never be diminished based on the *BS* of prestige.

If CCP follows that logic I would support this idea.

That's not possible. The only interaction with Aurum in this entire process is to purchase the extractor item. The item then has to be used on a player to extract skillpoints, which consumes the extractor and spawns a new item. At this point, the link between the extractor and the Aurum spent is severed, and the extracted SP item can ONLY be sold on the player market.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#787 - 2015-10-15 20:24:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Will this delete skill books from your head or will it just take the skill points and leave the books intact? (I'd like the option to delete books that have 0 points allocated, please).

Also, this would make transferring sp within your own toon super costly if you have a high skill point character. Can there be a discount applied for keeping skill points within your toon? I'd be ok with a 50% loss for moving skill points plugged into my head into my unallocated skill point pool. Seems more Fair since I'm not transferring them to someone else.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#788 - 2015-10-15 20:24:30 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:


Loyalty is exactly what will get old HL players to get new HL as well, no matter when it comes out. Their loyalty comes from previous experiences and they have understanding why it takes so long. As everyone`s expectations about it are quite high and it is not easy to make great games to live up to those expectations. It takes time and they will wait.


All companies are trying the best ways to make loyal customers, to make them repeat buys etc. Loyalty and customers happiness ie customer`s feelings. One unhappy customer will make bigger impact than 5-10 happy customers, only it will be negative.Sorry but I do not want to spend time on explaining that, nor it is the main subject. You can google it, listen some of the world best speakers on that subject, read books if you want to find more about it. I just hope CCP has some people with knowledge, who can measure threats and side effects of such moves.

Half-Life 3 is not coming out. Sorry to burst the bubble.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Romeo Blacks
Shady Oaks
#789 - 2015-10-15 20:25:14 UTC
i was drawn to the game for the hard learning curve and the ever lasting good/bad descisions.....

perma death ships and set in stone skills are the bedrock of my gameplay. and its that risk and descision that sets eve apart for me......


this is a big step in the wrong direction for me....... GREATLY dissagree with it being implemented.....
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#790 - 2015-10-15 20:27:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:

And now characters themselves are malleable, losing some of their associated uniqueness. Like the one thing EvE still does faithfully is characters and personalities actually having weight, meaning, and gravitas. A great deal of this would be lost if characters were made to factory specifications.

Veteran players make New Eden go around. They are the teachers, the instigators, the patrons, the leaders, the storytellers, and the FCs that make the game....a game. Veterans that feel what they have is being eroded are not the most likely candidates to get people hyped about playing.


You live in a very strange world. The Eve I experience is rife with purchased characters and one's sense of identity is only tied to one's jabber account or forums account.



Eh, I don' think our worlds are all that different, it's just what the central reference point is. For someone whose identity and its associations lie mostly outside of the game, individual characters are just tools of that identity, and don't have much personality in and of themselves. Some people met everyone they know in EvE in game, rather than importing existing identities and relationships from another place, and it is these people that will more likely see their character name, face, killboard, corp history, etc, as more personal than an external forums name, personality, or likeness.

This character is my Identity as far as EvE goes. I fully respect an outside identity being your main identity, but lots of character's have a lot to lose, even if this is intangible to some.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#791 - 2015-10-15 20:27:21 UTC
Ong wrote:
FML you guys really didn't learn from the monocle fiasco did you?

Just straight up no.

The most I would even consider is some way to rename and possibly re-map skill points, but buying skill points?!?!

It would make eve one step away from being free to play and full micro transactions, and we all know that's the final nail in any mmo's coffin.

******* fire whoever came up with this idea......seriously.

How are so many people misunderstanding the mechanic here? You don't buy SP directly with Aurum. You can only get it from the player market.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
drunklies
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#792 - 2015-10-15 20:27:23 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
drunklies wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Querns wrote:

Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.



Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years.


Consistency might matter, but newer players are in such a bad position nowadays that something has to change.

This might be somewhat overkill and I do believe it needs to be toned down, but I'm in favor of anything that improves the new player experience because it's the purest form of sandbox content CCP can add to the game; more players in space.

And while it would be nice to set some further restrictions on this idea, it can hardly be considered 'P2W' any more than we already have available. You can buy as much SP on the bazaar as you want and you can buy as much ISK as you want.

I think the most reasonable question is, if an older player is allowed to circumvent painful experiences in the game through the purchase or selling of PLEX, why should a newer player not be entitled to a better starting experience through SP, especially given how this 'power' shifts further towards older players with every year that passes?


People always seem to be saying this. People were saying this in 2006, when others had 2 years on them. Guess what, it didn't really matter then, and it doesn't really matter now.


Two years is nothing.

The average vet, me included, now has close to infinite resources and alts. We have reached a point in EVE where we can literally throw triage carriers and dreads away.

In 2006, the game still wasn't very well understood. Now, most players have grasped that cap escalations, for example, at 500-1b/hour are better income than HS mining. Which is also why most of C5/6 space has become a PVE environment with little conflict, it is also why huge nullsec alliances have created the safest ratting space possible and farmed the **** out of it for years. Or how incursion groups have optimized every last aspect of their gameplay. All of this is evidenced by inflation rates; people have simply gotten much better at accumulating wealth/power.

Ever wondered why years ago you'd see nothing but ratting Drakes, and over the years those same players are now ratting with multiboxed carriers?

What this means is that both the learning curve and the 'falling-behind' curve for new players is ever-increasing and has gotten to a stage where it's utterly stupid.

An older player should have an advantage over someone new in an MMO, but if you let this scale too far, you will end up with a game where the advantage you have over a new player is no longer relevant because there are no longer any new players around to use this advantage against; which I am sure we can both agree is not healthy for the game.



My point is, people have always used the argument that other people have the advantage of already being entrenched for as long as I've been playing. So, yeah, you have your legions of alts, your ratting carriers and piles of isk. You are still limited by the game in that you cant train anything to 6 nor get access to ships that those new players would never have access to. Everybody started at the same level, and it is simply defeatist to say that that is the major stumbling block to gaining/retaining new players.
Neutral Haulermeister
The Corporate Raiders
#793 - 2015-10-15 20:27:33 UTC
Thoughts on making the SP that is delivered not be given instantly but over a perios of time determined by player SP? so a newbie might get the gains in a matter of days but a 20 or 30M SP fellow might take a week or so to apply?

Accepts your stuff if you're quitting EVE, Please mail and contract me your stuff.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#794 - 2015-10-15 20:29:39 UTC
Black Panthera wrote:
Maybe CCP could tweak this idea and make it limited to own account/toon(s)? I would like to be able to pay (if not possible to get it for free) to transfer some of 'misplaced' SP into more needed/usefull skills..

Only issue with this is that as long as the character bazaar exists you could buy a high SP character then tweak the skills to your liking anyway.
Furyvixen Bloodhoof
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#795 - 2015-10-15 20:30:03 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:


Now we've covered that, let's see why PLEX was introduced: To allow people who are time rich but cash poor to be able to play the game and pay for game time from their in-game wallets. Currently a low skilled Character (<5mil SP) won't be able to afford 1.2bil to buy a PLEX to do any of this malarkey with SP extraction\injection.

You're pricing them out of the market FFS. More of a concern is that PLEX isn't being used for what it was brought in-game for and is just another money stream that's turning into a torrent for CCP.



Actually coming As a player that has money and not time I see Plex as a means to purchase Isk so I can buy shiny big ships. Not a means to play the game for free which will definitely have affected revenue with so many people not actually subscribing.

But needless to say I'm on the fence on this plan, I personally loathe free to play models with pay to win items, and this is exactly that(+subscription).... But did you see what I wrote earlier ? I buy Plex with hard cash to buy ships...I'm already paying to win.

what does concern me is a lot of inactive accounts and players that left will resub for a month just to melt skills .

It needs a fair bit of refining to be viable and I for one am going to ge watching it like a hawk ,
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#796 - 2015-10-15 20:33:00 UTC
Been doing some napkin math and you might have an issue but it is hard to say yet. We really need to know what #s you are thinking for aurum part first.

At the very least you probably can't run p02 anymore but again, need #s.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Lincoln Loth'brok
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#797 - 2015-10-15 20:33:14 UTC
So just to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly, We will have the ability to do this rather than sell the character on the bazaar. So you could realistically by the Transneural Skill Packet for whatever ship you want to fly, inject them and then be able to fly that ship with the skills that were cannibalized from the previews pilot. Correct?
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#798 - 2015-10-15 20:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Querns wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:


Loyalty is exactly what will get old HL players to get new HL as well, no matter when it comes out. Their loyalty comes from previous experiences and they have understanding why it takes so long. As everyone`s expectations about it are quite high and it is not easy to make great games to live up to those expectations. It takes time and they will wait.


All companies are trying the best ways to make loyal customers, to make them repeat buys etc. Loyalty and customers happiness ie customer`s feelings. One unhappy customer will make bigger impact than 5-10 happy customers, only it will be negative.Sorry but I do not want to spend time on explaining that, nor it is the main subject. You can google it, listen some of the world best speakers on that subject, read books if you want to find more about it. I just hope CCP has some people with knowledge, who can measure threats and side effects of such moves.

Half-Life 3 is not coming out. Sorry to burst the bubble.


No problem, I am not a fan of it so I was not aware. I am sure it had negative impact and that valve have created some unhappy customers because of it.

And I am sure that they have waged all options. How much they could lose by making sh*t game and how much by not making it at all. So the one with smaller side effect has won.

But you cannot compare apples and oranges. Half Life 3 is someones wish/expectation, coming from a company which distributes millions of games which target every possible kind of gamer out there. And they have millions of customers. How many percent of those customers care about HL3 to the point of quitting valve services? Minor, they can afford even losing them all.

CCP has its own niche market with way smaller player base focused in one game, which makes them much more vulnerable. That is why they should care much much more about things which affect their player base. Player base which has built this game. Ie most of the content which got majority of other players to come was done by players.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#799 - 2015-10-15 20:33:32 UTC
First of all, thank you for the manner in which you posted this devblog. We appreciate the fact that you come to us to start a dialogue instead of dropping the bomb. Props and respect for that and it is the only reason I'm giving my feedback in many moons past.

Unfortunately that is the only positive thing I have to say about this devblog. Here are just some of the reasons I can think of:

I can't imagine too many players wishing to trade in real time for ISK. I'm sure some will but I don't think the supply will meet the demand. This will probably result in ridiculous prices, forcing new players to PLEX to afford this feature.

As already mentioned, veterans, especially those with fat ISK or RL wallets will still be able to use this system effectively, even if they have to pay 10x what newbie does. This further drives up the prices and results in RMT for skill reset and/or SP gain. This alone should have been enough to derail this train from leaving any CCP office room.

Character Bazaar was removed for good reasons and brought back because of Ebay/RMT and all the security risks associated with it. Since CCP has to monitor and execute transactions the two PLEX price was an understandable cost. Now that the system could be automated using game mechanics there is ZERO excuse for involving AUR or $$$ in this transaction.

While skill points are important, we all know that players skills are much more valuable. Instead of focusing on RMTing SP maybe we need to invest in better ways of making new players understand that.

Last but not least, SP, graphics, tutorials, and all the other NPE improvements are not the main reason why people join or stay in EVE. While those things help to some degree, the main driving factor for EVE's growth always has been its current player base. It is the players who were creating content, inviting friends, recruiting newbies, teaching and socializing with them that helped grow the game year after year. Look at EVE's beginning, when the game's NPE was total crap and yet it grew exponentially with no end in sight. Ask yourself why? Now ask yourself why has that stalled since Incarna?

I think it all boils down to this:

We used to have a set of beliefs about EVE and we thought that CCP shared those beliefs with us. We thought that CCP understood what makes EVE so great even if we couldn't quite express it with words. We were amazed by this universe and its curators, we were inspired to play, create and destroy. We were naturally compelled to bring in others and share this experience with them. Incarna shattered all that in a matter of days.

The mutual respect, trust and understanding we thought we shared with CCP was thrown out the window. So was our confidence in CCP to make decisions that would be in EVE's best interest. Uncertainty about EVE's future made us apprehensive about emotionally investing into the game. More and more we expend vast amounts of energy fighting CCP on this or that change rather than using that energy to make things happen inside the game. Many of us have either given up or continue to play half heartedly, being unable to put in real effort not knowing what crazy change tomorrow might bring. Luckily (for CCP) no other developer has figured out EVE's secret formula yet so it remains the only game that can provide this unique experience.

Incarna was four years ago, so what now? Dev blogs like this and many other actions show that the above is still true. CCP as a company still has not realized EVE's true greatness. If the executives of the company do understand this golden formula, they have not filtered it down to every person in the company and to every current or even potential player. This is why we are in a situation we are today. Some Devs/teams have a better feel for what makes EVE tick and put out great changes while others make the collective player base pull their hair out.

When you gain this fundamental understanding of what fuels New Eden, communicate it down to every person in the company, to the players, to the guy who never heard of EVE. When that happens, CCP and players together will bring New Eden to new heights never before imaginable and you will not need to worry about new player retention. You will only have to worry about making their experience more enjoyable.

Good luck with the thread o7

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Hellusius
Siesta Inc.
#800 - 2015-10-15 20:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Hellusius
Not too big of a fan of this change either.

I am all for doing something with skillpoints and making them more interpetable than just time and optimized skill attributes as they stand currently. I'd much rather relate skillpoint rewards or partial reallocations through invested effort or achieving something.

Ideas I've been wondering about were things like an epic journey/venture for each different branch of EVE (Industry, PI, Manufacturing, Exploration, PvE Combat,PvP Combat or Trading).
An Example woud be an Epic venture that can only be done on a certain interval (like a month or a quarter) where you would have to venture different parts of EVE to go and gather a set of ORE's with a twist and turn here and there for the industrial wingers. It would also create a new form of content for each different EVE branch.

You could even create a design where you could propse the player with a reward between a reallocation or a bonus in skillpoints. The choice in the amounts would differ, where newer players would benefit more from a bonus and older players more from a reallocation.

Just some random cents.