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Let me understand this; 1st you have to be an alt of someone who has been playing since 2007 (going by your previous post) so would presumably have been training for a number of years and have over 50 mil SP. You state quite adamantly your are against this proposal, yet in your next post declare you will buy SP because after training multiple characters for many years, there is 4 ships you would be prepared to spend billions of isk on with 90% diminishing returns, to save a little time off your current training cue? Please correct me if i got it wrong.

I tried to ignore this but found I just had to respond and point out how wrong you are. EVERYTHING in Eve is based on "real money", whether it is your credit card spinning it or someone else's - Plex, DTC's, Aurum are all brought into the game via someone having spent "real money". The whole Eve economy is based to some extent by how much "real money" players are willing to spend, CCP control that by setting the prices at which those items enter the game.

NB; Even at 500 mil per packet (the minimum I believe), SP is not going to be "affordable" for anyone other than those who would not benefit from purchasing it due to diminishing returns.
New players, those with less than 10 mil SP (who should be the target group) will not, without rich benefactors (like Alavaria who has previously stated she will give SP away in the right situations) be able to afford SP packets without use of a credit card - Which is Exactly what CCP is hoping for. In game currency doesn't translate into income for CCP unless it is purchased with "real money" via Plex, DTC's or Aurum.

This proposal is not about making the game better or easier for lower skilled pilots, it is about generating alternate incomes for CCP. Any benefit to players is secondary.
If it weren't about real money, the sp packets would not have a real money value - Aurum. They would instead be available via BPO's or some such, using in game currency and the ingame market. Now; before someone says "you can buy them with isk", yes you can but someone has to spend money to get the Aurum into the game to buy the SP packets so they can be sold for isk on the ingame market.
That is how the Eve economy works, someone spends real money so someone else can spend isk.

Of course it is more available to those prepared to spend real money.
Please do tell how it benefits "the whole community" ? It seems this will benefit a small sector of the player base via the isk option (those with less than 50 mil SP who are space rich or with large earning potential) and help new players only if they have money to spend (or a space rich benefactor).

Read the thread. you will see where my minimum 500 mil per comes from. I stated my opinion on this several times, in detail.
NB; If this relies on "older players selling off those unwanted mining skills" as CCP suggested, the scheme would run out of supply in a matter of months. Supply will come from SP farmers, who will want to make a profit. At 1.2 bil to create around 1.8 mil SP per month - You work it out.

No it doesn't but if CCP weren't concerned about income from the feature, it could be implemented at a lower cost to those who wish to use it, especially if the target group is new lower skilled pilots without large isk earning potential. Plus your plex comparison fails where the target group is concerned in many cases, unless they have money. I don't know many new players who can plex their accounts, let alone have extra isk for SP packets.


The idea of plex for play is great, until it reaches a price that excludes certain player groups from using it without turning Eve into a part time job.
It takes me around 20 hours to make enough to buy 1 plex with isk (without grinding my *** off). So with an average play time of 2.5 hrs p/d over 30 days - that is 1/3 (roughly) spent making enough isk to play next month. I then need to make isk to buy ships, modules, ammo, etc so I can pvp (the reason I play Eve), so add another 10 or 15 hours of ratting to support my pvp habit. Up to half my available online time consumed making isk with a well skilled pilot flying a purpose fit ship.

Take that example and apply it to a guy (or girl) who has only been playing for 2 or 3 months, it may help explain a lot. The "idea" you can play the game "for free" by buying plex in game is great, reality is, it is not available to all. Not everyone is space rich, nor should they be but to say anyone can play for free is not entirely true.
You forgot - Those who don't want to (or can't afford to) spend money but are unable to make the amount of isk required without turning Eve into a job.


All of this is pointless really, CCP will do what CCP will do and the feature will get used or it won't. Players will decide the success or failure of the feature. If SP is too costly the feature fails and considering Eve's market motto is greed is good, it leaves this new feature in a precarious position.

While maybe people with under 10mil SP characters can't afford the SP packets by isk grinding, do they afford their sub/plex by isk grinding?

I like how the idea is somehow they are tricked by adding an option, so much so they somehow harm themselves?

Well of course, every thing in the game is more available to those prepared to spend real money with the only exception being those items not being made available by those who have them and no way to reproduce them.

Real money exists as a bypass to isk earning via PLEX, thus anything that costs isk is "more available to those prepared to spend real money." Why are we still pretending this is new?

With average wallets at >700mill 300-400mill isn't space rich. Also one can make serious isk at far less than 50mill SP. Do you mean to suggest that there should be no reward for achieving that? That for those that take the most common and least rewarding paths should determine what those that do better should achieve? Or that the option to make more isk themselves isn't there?

I've been in this thread quite a while, I've seen and proposed several numbers, few of them at or above 500mill. Most of those dramatic exaggerations without reasoning.

But if you want math, lets do math:
Farmers will set up for 2700 SP/hour or 1,944,000 SP/PLEX
TSP is 500k SP
PLEX is under 1.2B

Using that estimation TSP cost in PLEX is 308mill isk, which has been stated several times, something someone making appeals to read the thread should know since numbers around 300mill have been thrown around quite a bit.

So again, prove your "500mill minimum." Math doesn't support your conclusion even before considering those accounts already PLEX'd through activities other than SP farming but not training, making them pure profit farms at under 300mill values.

The price point is set by the size of the packets and, per our best estimation, the price of PLEX. All CCP can do is reduce the size of TSP, but all that does is dilute the purchase, and that doesn't make gaining a specific amount of SP any cheaper. The nature of the idea puts pricing out of CCPs control.

What you're saying they should do is something they can't do unless they use a direct sale method, forgoing extractors and dependance on players farming/selling the SP.

The idea of PLEX remains great at any price point because it's not an entitlement. The same for TSP. If we consider TSP a must, that's because SP is a must, and if SP is a must we've been lying for 13 years about this game being about player skill and cooperation as opposed to character skills.

I believe the former is true, thus the idea that everyone may not participate for whatever reason isn't an issue.

Your maths sucks you just have 1 plex for dual training & 1/3 Plex for injector

Add another PLEX for the extractor

"" A Transneural Skill Packet is created by extracting some of your trained skills and combining them with a ‘Transneural Skill Extractor’ which can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum (The Transneural Skill Extractor is analogous to the PLEX service fee in the character bazaar)"

Nice contradiction - From it is available to all to of course it isn't.

Average wallets at 700 mil?? Where do you get this muck from and, of course if it is true, no-one is plexing accounts and TSP's being introduced is a waste of effort on every ones part. Except CCP make a few bucks from selling Aurum for empty SP packs.

You seem to not be able to answer a post, just spout more crap to heap on your already huge pile.

Seriously "without reason", this is Eve you fool. Most pilots aren't going to farm SP to help others, it will be about making a profit.
You put 100 Tsp's on the market for 308 mil - I'll buy the lot and relist them for 450 mil.
Yes the cost to produce may be close to 308 mil - You fail to take into account the game you a playing. This is Eve, greed is good.

Market history, plex dropped below 1.2 when CCP ran a discount for a few weeks. Imagine, Eve market is player driven (just for arguments sake), 1.17 is current average now, how long will it take to top 1.2 bil again? (that is 30 mil, how long do you think it might take) I used 1.2 because that was the player driven price before CCP intervened and forced it down a little.

No, again your missing the point, or trying to at least. What I'm saying is (in nice simple terms) - Say TSP packets were produced from a BPO (like most items in game) and those BPO's were available on the market so no Aurum was required to manufacture them. You claim to know how Eve ticks over, use that knowledge to work out the difference between - Player produced and purchased from CCP. Not too long ago plex were 500 mil isk, they are now more than double that price because this is Eve and making a profit is what matters.

Then we have an issue. Not everyone will be able to participate.

.Earlier in the thread someone said they would "give" TSP's away to newbros in corp to help them (great idea), does this create an unfair advantage?

.Some players aren't RL rich but also can't play 30 hours a week to make enough isk to plex their account and buy TSP's, does this create an unfair advantage?

.SP in itself is an advantage for those who have it compared to those who don't. Even if that advantage is because the lower skilled pilot can't fly a Nightmare as well as the guy with higher skills (you can train into a Nightmare in less than a week but without good support skills, it is going to die quicker and be far less efficient) - So are TSP's creating unfair advantage?

.TSP's have diminishing returns, the higher SP you start with the less you get. Is this an unfair advantage? I have a character with 56 mil SP, that I would love to put into a Blops now rather than in 2 months. Why should I be penalized for having 4 mil SP over a contrived limit when a new player with 1 mil SP can train into a Blops by buying less TSP's than I would have to for the same outcome?

I've just spent 2 years training a pilot to fly ONE ship - A brand new character could train the exact skills in as much time as it takes to buy the TSP's and skill books, for far less than it cost me if the price of TSP's is lower than the cost of RL training time - That I would see as an unfair advantage... 7 years of planning and saving made irrelevant because anyone (with isk or money) can now do it instantly.

I firmly believe TSP's are more about another micro transaction and less about "helping" new players.
SP is not a barrier to having fun in Eve, you just need to find your niche and with time (and skill training) you can branch out and increase the size of your niche.
As I said earlier, when I want carefree fun pvp, I'm not flying a 100 mil SP toon, I log in my FW alt which has around 6 mil SP and just go kill stuff and die a lot.

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question which i cant seem to find

So if I did remove skill points on skills that I have no use for then those skills would show up as lvl 0 nothing trained on them on skillsheet.

Would I then be able to remove the skill from my skill sheet?

I can probably go without tsp, but I wouldn't be able to do much without some sub time.

Let me buy some plex in jita, brb.

You know what, for new players it is (very) likely to become a must have item. Who will want to recruit rookies with under 10 mil SP if there is a pool of new players out there with more because they can afford TSP's.
Many corps now have minimum SP requirements, will they remain the same or will they go up because "it is easy to get TSP's".
You can order new pilots to suit your alliances needs.. Recruiting ad on the forums - minimum 15 mil SP, specialized in (doctrine of the month). Or the alliance that is short on logistics pilots - Minimum 10 mil SP, must have logistics 5 and ___ cruiser 5.

I believe TSP's should remain where they are - An idea.
Devaluing the SP of every player who has spent time training it is bad. Allowing it to be brought and sold is a slippery slope toward pay to win - Gold ammo anyone.
Don't think it could happen? Wasn't it the CEO of CCP Games who stated something along the lines of, Spending money on Eve will never grant an advantage.

Eve has a minimum amount of SP required to start playing the game - CCP seem to think the amount of SP given to a new account is enough to start playing the game. Time put into the game is all that is required to increase those skill points and open up opportunities to fly more skill intensive ships. (Isn't that how we all did it).
The character bazaar exists for those wishing to skip months (or even years) of training, CCP could put some effort into it and make it more user friendly if you want to play around with character training.

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Is it going to break the game if the guy with 56 mil SP, wanting to train Triage 4 to 5 doesn't have to wait 35 days and could do it by buying the required amount of SP packets and receive 500k SP for each one ?
Is it going to break the game if a brand new character with less than 2 mil SP decides to train directly for Triage 5 and carrier 5 by using SP packets to do it?
What is the difference between these two characters, aside from the fact, the 1st one has dedicated a few years into training his character and the 2nd did it automatically with no time required other than the time it takes to buy the SP and skill books.

Both have the same end result, carrier 5 + triage 5. One is being given a huge advantage by using a method of payment - The other (who has dedicated possibly years to his character) is forced to wait 35 days..


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CCP is all but coming out and saying - We don't care about our existing long term customers - I'm not sure what their reason for such harsh diminishing returns is but you can be sure - They have what sounds like a reasonable explanation.
Having 2 day old characters skill to lvl5's via payment methods is ok - But existing higher SP players using the same feature is fervently discouraged. That is really showing guys and gals who have dedicated years to EveOnline how valued they are as customers.